Rants of a Commie

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-13 02:44am

Mao's 1st five year plan killed millions of Chinese through starvation when the PRC collectivized the farms. When he said China needed iron, every village built a smelter and produced useless slough instead of rice so the Commissar’s did not haul them off for "re-education." I don't have a web site handy for these facts, but just go to Amazon.com and order a copy of " The Search for Modern China " by Jonathon D. Spence. Then skip to the section on the PRC.

If you want to live in that kind of world, more power to you. I'd rather have the freedom of speech I can say what I want--even on the internet. Why do you think that guy stood in front of the tank in Beijing?

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-13 03:38am

Norton,

I know about what happened in China, it was a tragedy, and many times I really hate Mao for what he did, but it wasn't all his fault (he has executive responsibility but here are some additional information if we with to be objective critics).

The main problem with Mao was the eventual godhood he achieved. Intentional or no, (I think its intentional) he was able to write a small column in a newspaper and basically overrun Zhao Enlai and the more pragmatic leaders of the Communist party.

During the years of the great Leap Forward, there were grain competitions. To encourage the agricultural outputs, villages would state goals of grain production and strive to achieve this goal and be honored within the nation (an interesting example of incentive without true gain, just honorable mention BLEGH who wants that? I want money!!!!)

Goals were set by village officials who were of course eager to prove their value to the new regime. Soon outrageous crop goals were set by the villagers of their own accord, such as 200 tons/acre. This is agricultural impossible as I mentioned before, but the villagers were so uneducated, and anyone who even questioned the possibility of such output was jailed. Truly an unwise move by the government to remove anyone with a decent education but

this is history and I can't change it.

When harvest time came around, newspapers showed a good harvest even by the standards of the time. Problem is, that even a good harvest with say 20 tons/acre (not sure if that is possible either but much more reasonable than 200tons/acre) is far behind their expected output. How did the villagers react? They tried to cheat. For the grain output, the villagers attempted to pile squash, and other vegetables into their "grain output". Worried bureaucrats concerned over their own reputations additionally inflated the numbers. As it goes up higher each official decided to "keep face" and add another zero to the end. Finally when it comes to taxing, even if we say that only 1% of the grain woudl be taken to the government (we know that isn't the number but I'm trying to prove a point) 1% of 20000 tons/acre is still 2000 (check my math I'm doing this off the top of my head) tons/acre. If real output is 20tons/acre and ytou're being taxed at 2000tons/acre...you have...FAMINE STARVATION AND DEATH.

The communist party was also unaware that the numbers had inflated to this amount. And since building up industry was a primary priority for Communism, young men were pulled from their villages to help boost production. This of course lead to truly utter failure.

What we see here is really a lot of factors, preventable with one simple key: Don't lose track of reality.

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-13 04:38am

Sorry about that AltoidMaster, I'm still a bit raw on the BBS thing.
I was trying to aim my last post at RC. He needs to spend time in one of Stalin's re-education camps, preferably Kolima or the Uatusk(and I know I spelled the place names worng): there were true socialist labor projects.

However you are absolutely correct on that that last post. The Great Leap forward and the 1st Five Year Plan were Catastrophes on biblical proportions for China.

If you can pick up a copy of "The Search for Modern China" the section on the Taping Rebellion is an interesting read. So are the sections on the struggle between Mao and Cheng Kai-sheck.

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-13 04:54am

The Taiping rebellion is soo funny. I love that part. "I'm Jesus' Brother!"

You know what's interesting? How Chiang Kai-Shek was willing to allow Jiang Jieshi to become Emperor. To this day there are a lot of questions about what happened. For example, Jiang Jieshi loved to go into the Imperial Vaults, and take a certain cup called the "nine dragons cup" which was made of jade and carved in such a way as is said that when one drinks wine from it, 9 dragons can be seen animatingly flying on the surface of the wine. Something of ancient holograms. One of Jiang's servants accidentally smashed it while cleaning it and claimed it was because he saw a dragon over Jiang's head while he was sleeping. That's how he got the idea that he was the new heaven's mandate.

Even now if you observe the throne room inside I believe the Temple of the Sun (MIGHT be Forbidden City, can't remember exactly location, one of the two), you'll notice that the throne is actually bushed back. This is because there is a giant ball placed precariously over the throne's original position, and prophecy stated that only the true Emperor could sit in the throne, or else the ball would smash him in his tyranny. Interestingly enough, even with Jiang Jieshi moving the throne back, he died after only a few days as Emperor.

I think I'm digressing from the topic now. I love Chinese history!

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-13 05:07am

Yep Chinese history is hoot, the only thing I've found that comparable id Roman history

I got to get there before the Three Gorges Dam is complete.

Istanbul is a blast if you ever get there and so is Ephesus. The Turks let you climb over all the historic sites.

Serious digression now. One two many beers...

ECV all the way

Ai Phling Pu · Post by **Ai Phling Pu** » 2002-07-13 02:12pm

Communism is bad.

Ai Phling Pu · Post by **Ai Phling Pu** » 2002-07-13 02:13pm

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 02:32pm

Double post, key stroke error, no delete function Disregard this post.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 02:44pm

Evidently, sarcasm and irony are too deep for this crowd. Independant thought has never been my strong point, as I'm also illiterate, and have a small vocabulary.

Reread my post, and bear that in mind. Suicide is a great idea.

Have I made my point, or do I need some fancy way of separating sarcasm from honest belief?

I think the over use of the emoticons tends to dilute my point, and dull my razor wit. Some people just don't seem to how sharp irony and sarcasm are until they cut themselves. Does any one read my posts, and come to the conclusion I am for "conditioning"?If so, you are bleeding!
Please, try to keep in mind my "gung ho" pro capitalism sentiments,and watch for sharp edges. Note to the thick headed, or honestly mistaken, (you know who you are)Torture Drugs, terror,-BAD, freedom---Good.
As far as the 200 years is not enough time to judge the system, it is at present the longest stable running govermment in history that faced competition. Don't bring up the Chinese dynastys, because they fell repeatedly to invaders. They absorbed them, not defeated or resisted them. Sheer numbers. Each invasion founded a completely new empire, which broke away, and was reconquested. Mongols didn't alway have asiatic features. The Romans? Pah! Some of these Empires only lasted hours.
Hint: New Emperor, new empire. Got any examples in the last 1000 years if you don't accept my definition of "new" empire?
The USA is the longest running government in the world today, because the people in it are not THE government, but people with jobs WORKING for the government. Laws, not men.
Let me sum that up." A difference, that makes no difference, IS NO difference!!" The name is not the thing. The map is not the territory. Slaves, serfs, peasants? All the same.
As to your claim about wanting to use copper wire. If there is no copper available, you don't have the option of using it. Use what you HAVE! Surely you have read SF stories about being on colony worlds where all heavey metals are rare earths. What effect does this have on their tch base?
There are NO perfect people. There never WILL be. STOP asking for them. STOP designing sytems that need them. STOP calling systems that are designed for imperfect (REAL) people as bad. If they were "perfect", they wouldn't BE people. (Read brave new world.) Use what you HAVE. Is this thing on?

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-13 03:07pm

Over 200 years of "semi-prosperity" (what does that mean? becoming a world economic superpower in less than 150 years?) and counting is better than 73 years of oppresion and failed economic plans. Who says the US government will fall in the next few years? It probably won't, it''ll last for hundreds of years. It will take more than a few corporate scandals for people to lose faith in capitalism.

You don't need to be brainwashed in order to look at the killng of over 6 million Jews and get a sick feeling.

Even if America is a country where only the elite have a say in government (and it is not), anybody can join that elite. Ever heard of the "American Dream"?

I suggest AltoidMaster and RC move to Cuba. If they live in the US for some reason, they should move to Europe, and then move to Cuba.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-13 03:08pm

Over 200 years of "semi-prosperity" (what does that mean? becoming a world economic superpower in less than 150 years?) and counting is better than 73 years of oppresion and failed economic plans. Who says the US government will fall in the next few years? It probably won't, it''ll last for hundreds of years. It will take more than a few corporate scandals for people to lose faith in capitalism.

You don't need to be brainwashed in order to look at the killng of over 6 million Jews and get a sick feeling.

Even if America is a country where only the elite have a say in government (and it is not), anybody can join that elite. Ever heard of the "American Dream"?

I suggest AltoidMaster and RC move to Cuba. If they live in the US for some reason, they should move to Europe, and then move to Cuba. Or they should at least move back to 1934

Thinking Communism is superior to Democracy is no better than thinking the other way around.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-13 04:52pm

I would really like to comment on your idiocy and naiveness but i simply don't have the time so here's my post which tries to warp everything up for those simple minded.

Oh, and for the last time READ do some simple research on the ture workings of the government and the economy, become active in local politics, review laws that are actually being passed, and how it restricts your constitutional rights.

BTW, the american dream disappeared with the fifties. Not everyone can become elite. Look at reports on the concentration of wealth in the country and you'll soon find out.

------------------------------------
Here's my other relevant post

---------------------------------

As for the USA Patriot Act
SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--`
(B) appear to be intended--

`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

Again: If the activity appears to be intended to influence the policy of a government – not just the United States government – by intimidation, it’s domestic terrorism. Most important: Since all we require is intimidation, how would we define that?

"Intimidation" does not seem to be defined in H.R. 3162. We thus must turn to authoritative dictionaries, which say such things as "to make timid." Put it in the hands of a trial lawyer, and here’s how it could play out: Have you ever felt intimidated by someone smarter, larger, older, wealthier, higher in rank, more attractive, more physically fit, more passionate, or more popular than yourself? That’s all it takes to establish intimidation in court – being made timid. Get a jury or judge to buy your version of events, and you win.

So while intimidation is a weak criterion, far too easy to establish in a court of law, you don’t even have to establish anyone’s intent to intimidate, much less his success at intimidating someone. You, the prosecutor, have to establish only the appearance of the intention to intimidate any government, and you can try anyone for domestic terrorism.

--------------------------------

As for other exeamples of the governments trickery and deception I point to these:
A stories of how the US wormed its way out of having to abide by the Geneva Conventions
http://fair.org/extra/0203/guantanamo-p ... sfeld.html
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/PCJ201A.html

A culminating story which further allows the US to escape from being accused of international crimes. By way of blackmail.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html

The unreported story of Bush's appointing of key government positions to those connected with the Iran-Contra affair
http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/iran-contra.html

----------------------------------
In responce to Admiral Piett,
As for the topic of politics and ideology,

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quote:
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The US is a power hunger imperialistic state that will do anything to gain more power.
Bush[/color] The Elite are bilthering idiots who cares only for money and power.
In a few years globalization and free market industry will cause a greater divide between the elite and the rest of the world.
The problems of today will escalate, wars will start, people will die, poverty, disease, and hunger will run rampant, and every last freedom that was granted to us will be gone, so it had never existed. (well that last one was a rant)
Therefore Grassroots Democracy with a Socialist Economy is what will best help the world. Not the curent state in which only the elite and wealthy are granted sustained prosperty and humane life.
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The first three points I have learned through, years of research and active participitation in the international fourms. I can point to countless sources of information that you will find as speculative conjecture, by pure virutue of your bias. The rest of the world knows these facts and are doing something to stop it. And while capitalistic propganda might seem appealing, it does not shed light on the hard truth of what is being done. Such hypocrisy and misinformation has degraded our thoughts and erased our morals. We have been shown what they want to show, and taught what they want to teach, convinetly leaving out the facts about the suffering and pain they are creating through their selfish polices.

Two quotes that best come to mind are:
"The nationalist not only does not dissapprove of attrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -George Oewell
"Why of course the people don't want war... But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, wheather it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dicatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country...
-Hermann Goering, Nuremberg Trials

I believe that if we use our voice we can defend our freedom. Such things are expected of us as freedom loving people. To stop those who seek to control us, and those who wish to take advantage of others. While we in the west may not feel the effects of globalization and free-enterprise they are surely felt elsewhere. Wars to fuel riches and treaties to be broken are all common. As the poverty gap continues to grow a divide between the impoverished people of the world, the poor westerners and the rich westerners. As is common fact the top 1% of american citizens contorl more combined wealth than the entire bottom 99% of citizens. This is something which has been done by exploitation and illegal activities. As is seen by the recent corporate scandals. This action is no longer tolerable and we must do something to break the monoply of power that the rich continue to hold. The world cannot support their consolidation of wealth, a new lifestyle of relative equality for all of us needs to be implemented for to contiued survival of humanity.

Let us remember the words that were given to us over 200 years ago:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

The End... (i hope )

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-13 05:49pm

There is no end where there is no beging

Man simply can't let go or forget quick or intellgantly enough

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-07-13 10:43pm

I'm a lousy debater, and there are many older, smarter people that can prove my point. I don't know what your point is, and I haven't bothered to visit your assumably unrelated links. I will retire from tihs debate, and never reply again.

Oh, and what is the Communist creed? Oh, wait, Comunists aren't allowed to worship!

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-14 02:47am

Evidently, sarcasm and irony are too deep for this crowd. Independant thought has never been my strong point, as I'm also illiterate, and have a small vocabulary.
Reread my post, and bear that in mind. Suicide is a great idea. Have I made my point, or do I need some fancy way of separating sarcasm from honest belief?
I think the over use of the emoticons tends to dilute my point, and dull my razor wit. Some people just don't seem to how sharp irony and sarcasm are until they cut themselves. Does any one read my posts, and come to the conclusion I am for "conditioning"?If so, you are bleeding!

I have no idea what you're ranting aobut right now, but I will assure you one thing, sarcasm is reliant more often than not on your voice and how you say the words you're saying. Speech effectively neutralizes this effect and its only when you say something very obviously wrong that people are somewhat able to identify sarcasm. Example: 2 + 2 = 16!!! oF course!

Please, try to keep in mind my "gung ho" pro capitalism sentiments,and watch for sharp edges. Note to the thick headed, or honestly mistaken, (you know who you are)Torture Drugs, terror,-BAD, freedom---Good.
As far as the 200 years is not enough time to judge the system, it is at present the longest stable running govermment in history that faced competition. Don't bring up the Chinese dynastys, because they fell repeatedly to invaders. They absorbed them, not defeated or resisted them. Sheer numbers. Each invasion founded a completely new empire, which broke away, and was reconquested. Mongols didn't alway have asiatic features. The Romans? Pah! Some of these Empires only lasted hours.
Hint: New Emperor, new empire. Got any examples in the last 1000 years if you don't accept my definition of "new" empire?

By your definition then each president America has is a new country. Therefore the longest Democracy has been in place is for 12 years.
Laughable isn't it? Its by Dynasties which is the shortest you can cut Chinese history to, and you don't seem to know much about it when you consider the fact that the Chinese were able to maintain their identity and eventualyl assimilate their "conquerers" which is hard to say because the moment they adapted into the culture they ceased to be conquerors, but subject to the rules of the "conquered".

And Chinese dynasties have lasted longer than 200 years too. As long as the entity of the Roman Empire existed it is still basically the same country. Why in the world should I care about your definition of "new empire'?

The fact of the matter is, that society is CONSTANTLY under trial. There is on moment where it is NOT under trial. That's why the system was under trial when the Civil War broke out, when Reconstruction ended, when the Civil Rights movements were about. The US has successfully triumphed over many of the trials while maintaining its founding values. I'll give you that. But there are also less frequent incidences where it did not live up to its own creed. In those incidences, the system failed THAT particular trial and had to be reformed. This is what we call versatility. Utter failure is when the system is rejected. Such was with the Articles of Confederation.

The USA is the longest running government in the world today, because the people in it are not THE government, but people with jobs WORKING for the government. Laws, not men.
Let me sum that up." A difference, that makes no difference, IS NO difference!!" The name is not the thing. The map is not the territory. Slaves, serfs, peasants? All the same.

Your point here still has yet to manifest itself, because I can understand that the people are not THE government, but that by itself has no meaning whatsoever to anything i've said, and if it does, you should connect the two so I can understand what you're talking about.

As to your claim about wanting to use copper wire. If there is no copper available, you don't have the option of using it. Use what you HAVE! Surely you have read SF stories about being on colony worlds where all heavey metals are rare earths. What effect does this have on their tch base?
There are NO perfect people. There never WILL be. STOP asking for them. STOP designing sytems that need them. STOP calling systems that are designed for imperfect (REAL) people as bad. If they were "perfect", they wouldn't BE people. (Read brave new world.) Use what you HAVE. Is this thing on?

I've read Brave New World, and HandMaiden's Tale, and 1984, and Butterfly Revolution, and Kant, and Rousseau, and Locke, and Hobbes, and Confucius, and Lao Tzu, and Montesquiue, and Voltaire, and Wilde, and Freude, and lots more. Don't try to beat my down with reading I'm literate enough to make my own conclusions.

When something does not exist, these perfect people I'm talking about, you MAKE it exist. Just as superconductive materials did not exist naturally, so we MADE some.

But let me give you an example where communism is likely to be effective.

A village government system of the same family, such as we have observed to be among the simplest forms of government, generally matriarchal. But make it so that every working member of the society/family has a say and you have communism. The family will support members of its family in basic welfare and medical care (to the extent of what they can provide). Communism has been and is very effective in this state.

But does everyone think of his neighbor as his brother? Maybe. Does he think that Mr. Jones across the country is his cousin? No. He doesn't give a damn about the person who is remote to him. This is why as distances increase and ties loosen, Communism is rendered ineffective and close to impossible to maintain.

But do these people exist? Yes. There are true communists in the world. maybe just 1. Maybe its RC. It certainly isn't me. I'm not even a communist, a fact that you seem ot completely overlook, despite repeated announcements.

Neither did i call Democracy as evil or the epitome of bad government. I'm pointing out that even Democracy has flaws. Doesn't it? What I DO get riled up is when people start going on about 'US is a near utopia" because no it isn't, it has so long towork its way to even a "near utopia" that I expect the sun to supernova before that happens. Give it a rest. No government is perfect. Democracy is certainly a preferable form to some, but don't discount other people for thinking differently. Discount them for having poorly thought out arguments with large gaping holes in them.

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-14 02:48am

Even though you are terrbly rude

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-14 02:54am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi:

You may not reply but I will reply to you and excuse your rudeness and subpar behavior.

Over 200 years of "semi-prosperity" (what does that mean? becoming a world economic superpower in less than 150 years?) and counting is better than 73 years of oppresion and failed economic plans. Who says the US government will fall in the next few years? It probably won't, it''ll last for hundreds of years. It will take more than a few corporate scandals for people to lose faith in capitalism.

You don't need to be brainwashed in order to look at the killng of over 6 million Jews and get a sick feeling.

Even if America is a country where only the elite have a say in government (and it is not), anybody can join that elite. Ever heard of the "American Dream"?
is superior to Democracy is no better than thinking the other way around.

I don't think Communism is superior to democracy. I support a totalitarian government where the elite of me tells everyone what to do.

Joining the elite isn't impossible, but it takes time. Take the Kennedy's for example they were originally a nouveau riche family who got their money from selling illegal alcohol during the age of Prohibition. But now they are part of the "elite'. But it does take time for people to forget that you got your money dishonestly.

And oh yes. The "American Dream" is a tv in every living room and a car in every garage. That's hardly being elite.

Democracy is STILL under trial. Monarchy is STILL under trial. Until a system is proven to be flawless it is STILL UNDER TRIAL. I don't say this for your Lt. Cmdr. Smi I say this for ANYONE who takes the time to read 5 pages of blithering stupidity from RC, Me, and Emperor. UNTIL A SYSTEM IS PROVEN TO BE PERFECT AND HAS BEEN EXPOSED TO EVERY POSSIBLE PROBLEM THROUGH TIME, IT IS STILL UNDER TRIAL.

There.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-14 09:17am

Oh, and for the last time READ do some simple research on the ture workings of the government and the economy, become active in local politics, review laws that are actually being passed, and how it restricts your constitutional rights.

BTW, the american dream disappeared with the fifties. Not everyone can become elite. Look at reports on the concentration of wealth in the country and you'll soon find out.

Absolute bs. I know quiet a few people that are wealthy, several in my distant family, and none of them inhereted any of their wealth. You, like so many people these days, see wealth as being able to sit on your butt all day in a multi-milllion doolar house with seven luxury cars in the driveway. This is not, nor ever has been, the American Dream. The American Dream has been to be capable of bettering yourself, and that does not mean that people necessarily will better themselves. The American Dream means that if I have a minimum wage job now, I don't have to stay there the rest of my life. I see people achieving and living the American Dream every day. You might want to take your nose out of those reports and actually take a look around sometime, because reports you're looking at in no way reflect reality in America. The fact is today that most people choose not to better themselves, instead they wait for the government to take care of them, all the while complaining about that same governmant.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-07-14 12:00pm

I'd like to know where you are checking, because that's not true in any way.

You are mistaken, have you ever read your states constitution?

Here is the quote

The Texas Constitution
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 4 - RELIGIOUS TESTS
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

If you dont believe me follow the link

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txconst/toc.html[/quote]

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-14 11:10pm

I nominate green delishious, as the Supreme (Green) Bean!

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-15 02:21pm

I hope everyone had had a relaxing weekend. I know I did.

Seeing this debate has degenerated into a nonsensical argument which drifts into many differnt topics. This is the last post I will post on this thread. If you wish to continue a debate with individual topics, start a new thread.

Neither did i call Democracy as evil or the epitome of bad government. I'm pointing out that even Democracy has flaws. Doesn't it? What I DO get riled up is when people start going on about 'US is a near utopia" because no it isn't, it has so long towork its way to even a "near utopia" that I expect the sun to supernova before that happens. Give it a rest. No government is perfect. Democracy is certainly a preferable form to some, but don't discount other people for thinking differently. Discount them for having poorly thought out arguments with large gaping holes in them.

AltoidMaster I agree with you on most of your opinions, and see that you understand the point I was trying to bring across. Expressed by the quote above. The government is not perfect. Yet despite this imperfection many are oblivious to it. And how compared to other powerful governments throughout history, the US is in fact, has just as many evils which, are gravious enough to call for radical reform. And while we may disargee on the steps we must take to remediate this, at least we have acknowledged the problem.

As for the others I pose this question against your previous one.

"Where in history has a dominant government not used propaganda and misinformation to mislead its citizens?"

Media is essentially the 4th branch of our government.
As Thomas Jefferson once said,
"Were it left to me to decide wheather we should a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate at a moment to choose the latter.

Look at who controls this undemocratic branch of our government and how much influence it commands over the rest of the government.
I.E.
Favoring legislation
Tax Breaks
in return for
Campaign Donations
Positive Advertisement
http://www.fair.org/extra/9711/gmg.html

Other examples of Media and corporate power are found here:
http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html

As for the comment by David

While your opinion, may be that people see the American Dream mearly to be capable of doing better. Its ultimatly what they achieve in their quest to become better. As for most people it is to become rich. For both immigrants and natives, the American Dream meant success and in turn a better life. The "Dream" is not to be mearly capable, the "Dream" is to succeed. The growing divide between the rich and poor, and the growing economic divergence worldwide certainly isn't helping, people's quest for that "Dream".

As for reality, your reality is the enviornment you are in and the people in it. Look at your own econimic standing, the type of enclosed environment you live in. While you see the few privilged succeeding, I see the poverty that kills countless more. Reports and news inform you of the "actual reality", the things you don't see, the people in starving nations that you don't travel to, or people you deny yourself to acknowledge when you see them begging on the street. Don't restict yourself to the closed reality you live in or what friends or family tell you. Seek the truth.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-15 05:25pm

As for reality, your reality is the enviornment you are in and the people in it. Look at your own econimic standing, the type of enclosed environment you live in. While you see the few privilged succeeding, I see the poverty that kills countless more. Reports and news inform you of the "actual reality", the things you don't see, the people in starving nations that you don't travel to, or people you deny yourself to acknowledge when you see them begging on the street. Don't restict yourself to the closed reality you live in or what friends or family tell you. Seek the truth.

And how do you know my economic standing? I'm talking about the American Dream in America and I very much doubt you have seen poverty kill anyone in this country. As to those begging in the street, a report done by CNN addressed this awhile back. They went to ten of these people holding up signs that say, "Will work for food." and gave them jobs. Almost none of them even showed up for their first day of work, the rest quit immediately. The same reporter that set it all up went and found them on those same corners begging for money. They don't want jobs or to succeed in life, they want a handout.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-15 09:54pm

YOU bear the burden of proof here, but you have demonstrated nothing. I do not feel that any of my freedoms are in any kind of danger, and I really don't like communists. They tend to be idealistically ignorant of human behavior, history, and economics. They tend to look for quick yet peaceful solutions to long-term problems--sometimes ones that can only be solved through conflict or debate. They tend to try and get other people to solve their problems for them. Think about it. If they did not have these traits, why would they believe in communism?

In any case, this person appears to be unusually pessimistic about people for a real communist, but I still disagree with him. I don't feel that gifted and talented people should fare as poorly in the world as the dregs of society; I don't feel that a system without rewards can work; I don't think that freedom, the ability to raise oneself in society, and the ability to influence the way that one lives are acceptable trade-offs for societal stability.

AltoidMaster · Post by **AltoidMaster** » 2002-07-16 04:47am

Which court are you talking about? Because in Europe I hear they have a "guilty until proven innocent" system (hearsay can't say I ever experienced it, but some French people told me

)

YOU bear the burden of proof here, but you have demonstrated nothing. I do not feel that any of my freedoms are in any kind of danger, and I really don't like communists. They tend to be idealistically ignorant of human behavior, history, and economics. They tend to look for quick yet peaceful solutions to long-term problems--sometimes ones that can only be solved through conflict or debate. They tend to try and get other people to solve their problems for them. Think about it. If they did not have these traits, why would they believe in communism?

You disagree with the way Communism handles its problems, I can understand that. I disagree with the way much of Communism works. II would like to point out the good realism with which Master of Ossus tackles this touchy subjects, he repeatedly uses "tends" and "I". A realization that his opinion isnt absolute and doesn't try to spout off nonsense about perfect Near-utopian societies.

In any case, this person appears to be unusually pessimistic about people for a real communist, but I still disagree with him. I don't feel that gifted and talented people should fare as poorly in the world as the dregs of society; I don't feel that a system without rewards can work; I don't think that freedom, the ability to raise oneself in society, and the ability to influence the way that one lives are acceptable trade-offs for societal stability.

can't seem to recall the name of this Socialist, Alexandre something. But either way, he was a Communist who believed that the economic and social gap in society would be closed by the poor working harder and becoming rich. A sort of Russian Dream type of thing. Lenin wanted to take the wealth from the rich and give to the poor. So you see, even in Communism the "rewards" system does not have to be completely abolished. In fact I think this is the only way government CAN work successfully. This is also what is happening in China right now.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-16 05:29pm

AM:
Perfection is for Borg.
People make up government, people have flaws, therefore, all government has flaws. Water is wet. Your insistance that government be perfect shows your foolishness. Do you want dry water as well? Foolishness, is the demonstrated action of saying, or doing foolish things.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Rants of a Commie

Idiots keep spweing propaganda.

Answers and responces.

It's just like in court....