Is Square losing their touch? (Now with Major Spoilers)

[Vendetta]

It seemed, to me, to be a game that Square threw a great deal of effort into (I just didn't get that impression from my limited play of IX)

FFIX is one of the most unique and interesting of the FF worlds.

Admittedly, every one since FFVI has been a new construct (whereas previous ones were very much fantasy generica).

But the way they integrate everything into the overall design of ther world in FFIX is excellent (at last, there's a reason why there's only one airship in the sky)

Plus you get to spot all the references to previous FFs. If you're sufficiently geeky.

[Dalton]

A while back, someone said that Chrono games are held to higher standards. But, before CC, there was only one Chrono game...right?

Yes. ...

Well...that's not precisely true. You forget about Radical Dreamers, which was sort of a "co-quel" to Chrono Cross (and a hell of a lot better from what my sister tells me).

The Delphinius could have every single other airship ever. All at once.

Dude, totally. Moonstone Cannon, bizzitch.

SoA manages to nicely overcome the weakness that you're just searching for the six legendary mcguffins to beat the big bad foozle by being a huge amount of fun.

Not to mention being packed with interesting little sidequests and a very unique world design.

Though the original is slightly broken by having an utterly stupid encounter rate, and even in Legends the battles run slightly too slowly. (just in terms of animating the characters running around and doing stuff. they all appear very slow compared to, say, Grandia II)

Yeah, I've noticed that the battles in SOA:L can run a bit slow. And the encounter rate can get ridiculous in this one too (which isn't a factor anymore since I can now get into Upper and Lower Sky). Never played Grandia II?...
You want to talk about slow battles, tho...FF 5 and 6 on the PSX were pretty damn slow. That's why I prefer the carts, despite the cinematics.

[RogueIce]

You want to talk about slow battles, tho...FF 5 and 6 on the PSX were pretty damn slow. That's why I prefer the carts, despite the cinematics.

I don't know about the battles themselves, but the way you start and end the battles was so ridiculously slow for me (the fade in/fade out parts). That got so annoying after the first three fights.

But the best part for me in FFVI was Kefka's laugh on the SNES. No sound effect, before or since, has ever been as cool as that laugh coming out of my TV on the SNES. It is, bar none, the coolest video game sound effect ever.

[The Kernel]

Never played Grandia II?...

I wouldn't bother with it. Grandia for the PSX was a shining star of 32-bit RPG's, but the second game for the PS2 was a lot less inspired story-wise, although it still retained the killer battle system from the original.

Also of note was the lack of random encounters. I wish that more RPG's took this route as random battles suck, plain and simple.

[Chardok]

Random Encounters don't suck. IMHO, it makes the whole game feel so...scripted to not have randoms, because, you can only gain so much for each char if there is a set number of encounters...like they don't want you to be lvl 185 when you rape the last guy. Building my character up is half the fun. I enjoy killing lowbie shit until I am godlike and then raping killer beasts from the seventh gate of hell.

"Hello, Gentlemen, All your base are belong to us!"
Black Mage: "I think not. FIRE17!!"
*poof*
ashes.

::embellishment for dramatic effect::

[Vendetta]

Never played Grandia II?...

I wouldn't bother with it. Grandia for the PSX was a shining star of 32-bit RPG's, but the second game for the PS2 was a lot less inspired story-wise, although it still retained the killer battle system from the original.

Also of note was the lack of random encounters. I wish that more RPG's took this route as random battles suck, plain and simple.

The PS2 version was hand coded by diseased monkeys.

It managed to be inferior in every way to the Dreamcast original. (the PC version was quite good apparently)

I thought Grandia II's storyline was better than the first one, the characters were more interesting, especially Millenia/Elena. The basic story premise was the same (Notably, FFX is the same story as well), but the twists along the way were far more intriguing, and Grandia's ending was a mammoth black hole of suck.

[The Kernel]

Random Encounters don't suck. IMHO, it makes the whole game feel so...scripted to not have randoms, because, you can only gain so much for each char if there is a set number of encounters...like they don't want you to be lvl 185 when you rape the last guy. Building my character up is half the fun. I enjoy killing lowbie shit until I am godlike and then raping killer beasts from the seventh gate of hell.

You can still do that without random encounters. Grandia II for example has an unlimited amount of spawning enemies, you just don't initiate combat unless you actually touch the enemy. Actually, I'd say it makes it easier to massively level as at least you have the choice of when and how much to encounter.

[The Dark]

FF1: the grand-daddy of them all. A solid game for its time. Frickin' tough and long for an NES cart. No real plot, but no RPG had deep plot at that time.

It's a bug-raddled mess.

There are spells that do nothing, stats that do nothing, one spell that even does the OPPOSITE of what it's meant to do, a heal spell that's twice as effective as it should be, several spells that all do the same, a monster list straight out of the AD&D Monster Manual, no balance at all between classes, enemy-specific weapons that don't work...

It's fun as an exercise in where the series has come from, as is FF2 (which displays similar hideous failings), but really, the series starts with FFIII (which is enormous for a NES game).

I don't mean to be rude, but could you give examples for most of those things (the "monsters out of AD&D" is somewhat true). And for the classes, I felt most were fairly even over the course of the game except Thief, which was horribly useless, and Red Mage who usually became somewhat weak in the end game.

(the Origins versions of both are fixed)[/quote]

[LadyTevar]

But the best part for me in FFVI was Kefka's laugh on the SNES. No sound effect, before or since, has ever been as cool as that laugh coming out of my TV on the SNES. It is, bar none, the coolest video game sound effect ever.

Kefka's laugh was one of the first 'voices' that I'd ever heard in any game. It was freaky to hear him laugh like that, then turn towards his soldiers and call them "Idiots!" Kefka was cooler than Sepphiroth, even if Seppy was a kawaii bishy-boy with a big sword.

[Joe]

Saying "Square is losing their touch" might be giving them a bit too much credit. I would state it more like "they completely fucking lost it." FFX was wonderful, the closest thing to a flawless RPG experience out there. It had a great story, gorgeous visuals, and downright fun, addictive gameplay. That was the last great Square effort, in my opinion. Kingdom Hearts was an enjoyable experience that isn't going to be considered a watershed title like FFX, Unlimited Saga was downright mediocre, from what I've heard, and while I'm sure FF Tactics Advance is quite good, it's not going to be raising the bar and setting standards across the industry like a FFVII or a FFX. FFX is somewhat unique in that it still hasn't been matched by a competitor, three years after its release in Japan, but FFVII just revolutionized gaming in general. Very, very important game, arguably more so than Mario 64 and that overrated Metal Gear Solid. I should also mention that the Square that made those games doesn't exist anymore; it's SquareEnix now, with Enix in the dominant position. That's right; Square can completely and totally outdo Enix financially, qualitatively, and influentially in the 32-bit era, but they can't even keep their books in the black during the current era, so Enix gobbles them up. No excuse for that kind of shitty management, none.

Maybe Square will completely bounce back with FFXII. I hope they do, in fact. But the Square that we all loved is now gone. Terrible endgame.

[Vendetta]

I don't mean to be rude, but could you give examples for most of those things (the "monsters out of AD&D" is somewhat true). And for the classes, I felt most were fairly even over the course of the game except Thief, which was horribly useless, and Red Mage who usually became somewhat weak in the end game.

1. Broken spells:

LOCK does nothing. At all.
LOK2 actually INCREASES the enemies' evade stat, making them harder to hit.
TMPR and SABR do nothing. At all. (Though they do work on enemies.)
If an enemy casts a spell that targets all allies, it doesn't affect the one that cast it.
If an enemy casts a spell protecting it against an element it's weak to, it has no effect
HEL2, when cast in combat, has the same effect as HEL3. Outside combat it works correctly.
All the death spells do the same thing, with minimal differences in chance of success, as the chance to resist is based on the target.

2. Broken Weapons.

Weapons that are meant to have an increased effect against certain types or elements don't. The code which determines what they affect is there, but the game never uses it.

3. Broken stats.

The game never uses the Intelligence stat. Ever.

4. Broken classes.

Spellcasters are outclassed. NUKE can do up to 400 damage. Big deal, a level 50 Black Belt can do over 2000. Additionally, Blackbelts have a bug in their armour stat. They are meant to have armour class equal to their level if wearing no armour, and lose it if you equip any. If you level up whilst wearing armour, you get your level based AC back, until you change equipment or go to the Armour screen.
Additionally, the Blackbelt after the class upgrade is weaker than before it, as he loses his magic defence (Magic defence affects your ability to resist status changes)
Thieves are a liability to the party. Even when they're ninjas, they're no match for a Red Mage/Wizard, as they're so similar at attacking, but have less spells.
A Blackbelt can kill Chaos in one hit.

5. Stolen monsters.

There are more than "a few" things stolen from the Monster Manual. Close to 75% of all the enemies in the game are exactly the same in FF as in the monster manual. Same abilities, they look the same, they've usually got the same names.... Notable examples (with US names where significantly different):

Dragons - same colour/element associations. Not seen outside D&D.
Golems - same types (Clay, Iron, Stone) with all the same abilities (Haste, poison, slow).
Mind Flayers. Blatant. Even have a touch-death attack like the D&D version's intelligence drain. Even CALLED Mind Flayers in the Japanese version. (WIZARD, SORCERER)
Beholder. Blatant as well. So much so that the sprite and name had to be changed for the US release. (EYE)
Bahamut and Tiamat: (1st edition dragon gods)
Lich - same typical abilities
Marilith - KARY. Same appearance, typical abilities, and armament.
Ogre Mage - Same spell list, appearance from D&D.
Winter Wolves - Large, strong, frost breath attack (called Winter Wolf in japanese version)
Otyugh - OCHO, phonetic translation from Japanese. Same appearance.
Naga - Same appearance
Rakshasa - Name and near appearance. (MANCAT)
Sahuagin - Name and appearance (SAHAG)
Ankheg - Name (PEDE)
Bulette - Name (R.ANKYLO/ANKYLO)
Troll - Appearance, regeneration
Various undead - Names, weaknesses, abilities.

Hell, the only things not from the Monster Manual are Chaos and WarMech

[Vendetta]

Maybe Square will completely bounce back with FFXII. I hope they do, in fact. But the Square that we all loved is now gone. Terrible endgame.

Just to illustrate how terrible Square are doing right now, FFX-2 sold 1.2 million copies in one day. I mean if sales continue like that
they may as well pack it all in now...


The horrible failure of TSW, and the general fuckedness of the Japanese economy may not leave them in their best position ever, but make no mistake, they're going to be churning out functionally identical FF sequels for a while to come (Know that it'll be Square IP that dominates the SquareEnix lineup)

[Joe]

Just to illustrate how terrible Square are doing right now, FFX-2 sold 1.2 million copies in one day. I mean if sales continue like that
they may as well pack it all in now...

Of course they can still make money. They can milk the FF name for years and stay in business. But I don't want that, I want to see watershed games like FFVII and FFX.

[Cyborg Stan]

The PS2 version was hand coded by diseased monkeys.

By far my favorite bug is after teleporting, a character model would sometimes not have it's textures restored, resulting in a blank figure with minimal shading. It happened so often that I've dubbed it "The White-Boy Syndrome".

I thought Grandia II's storyline was better than the first one, the characters were more interesting, especially Millenia/Elena.

I liked Ryudo in the beginning, mainly because he was sacrastic. (Come to think of it, I also like Squall's (FF8, of course) reaction to his first 'dream'.)

Of course, I thought that Grandia II's battle system was just awesome. Even though even bosses posed little risk, it was because you actually had to think and plan to fight effectively.

[SirNitram]

Just to illustrate how terrible Square are doing right now, FFX-2 sold 1.2 million copies in one day. I mean if sales continue like that
they may as well pack it all in now...

Of course they can still make money. They can milk the FF name for years and stay in business. But I don't want that, I want to see watershed games like FFVII and FFX.

I find it ironic someone is chanting the death knell of a company, while at the same time announcing their last major title(KH and the like will never be the major undertakings that the FF series is for Square) as a high point.

[Joe]

I find it ironic someone is chanting the death knell of a company, while at the same time announcing their last major title(KH and the like will never be the major undertakings that the FF series is for Square) as a high point.

On the contrary, Kingdom Hearts was quite an undertaking for Square. And their last major undertaking was actually FFXI, an MMORPG that sold worse in Japan than any Final Fantasy title in years.

And I'm not "chanting" the death knell of SquareSoft. I've been a rabid Square fanboy for years, I stuck by Square after Nintendo decided it was God and arrogantly snubbed Square with their stupid fucking cartridges, and I defended FFVII when hating it became the latest trend in the internet videogaming community. The fact that Square ended up getting swallowed by Enix does not bring me pleasure, I assure you.

[Steve]

I just wish that they'd revamp VI and put it in full 3-D for the PS2.

If that happened, it would be proof that there is a God and he loves us.

But you must get Mark Hammil to voice Kefka! Have him use the Joker-voice he did for Batman and the other DC animated series!

[Dalton]

I just wish that they'd revamp VI and put it in full 3-D for the PS2.

If that happened, it would be proof that there is a God and he loves us.

But you must get Mark Hammil to voice Kefka! Have him use the Joker-voice he did for Batman and the other DC animated series!

DUDE! That is SO WRONG. I support this notion

Kefka's laugh was one of the first 'voices' that I'd ever heard in any game. It was freaky to hear him laugh like that, then turn towards his soldiers and call them "Idiots!" Kefka was cooler than Sepphiroth, even if Seppy was a kawaii bishy-boy with a big sword.

Is it any surprise that he's spawned an internet cult?

[RogueIce]

Is it any surprise that he's spawned an internet cult?

Kefka? No, not a surprise at all. He did have the videogame one, after all (for which they had one of THE MOST BAD ASS cult-like themes EVER).

Now, a power droid in Star Wars having a cult...

[HemlockGrey]

Sephiroth was cool to look at, and he had an interesting history, but his motivations were confusing and sort of struck me as the typical high-school gothic 'NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME' type shit, only with world-destroying meteors instead of razorblades.

Kefka, on the other hand, has the best FF line ever uttered:

'Run, run, or you'll be well done!'

[Joe]

Sephiroth was cool to look at, and he had an interesting history, but his motivations were confusing and sort of struck me as the typical high-school gothic 'NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME' type shit, only with world-destroying meteors instead of razorblades.

No, that's not Sephiroth. Angsty goths maintain their sanity; Sephiroth realizes what he is, decides he is a superior being, and totally fucking loses it.

"I'm going to see my mother." Chilling line.

[Durandal]

Honestly, I don't care if they give voices to the characters in VI or not. I want the visuals. Did you see the cinemas in the PSX version of the game? They were gorgeous. Though yes, Mark Hammil would be perfect for the role.

By the way, it's actually spelled "Cefca."

[Kuja]

As for the complaint 'FF games shouldn't be the same', no, they shouldn't. But after seven games, they had an established 'feel'. It was an odd mix of steampunk and high fantasy, of ruins of golden ages and strange powers at work. What do we get in eight? A modern world where the only mystic forces are so common they're taught in school. I suppose one could work wonders with such a setting, but this completely alien setting, combined with the incredibly tedium of the game, and the slowly building plot alienated myself, and I'm sure a good deal of others.

I sometimes wonder if Eight would've been better accepted if it hadn't been packaged as a FF, but rather released under a different title.

[The Kernel]

Maybe Square will completely bounce back with FFXII. I hope they do, in fact. But the Square that we all loved is now gone. Terrible endgame.

Just to illustrate how terrible Square are doing right now, FFX-2 sold 1.2 million copies in one day. I mean if sales continue like that
they may as well pack it all in now...


The horrible failure of TSW, and the general fuckedness of the Japanese economy may not leave them in their best position ever, but make no mistake, they're going to be churning out functionally identical FF sequels for a while to come (Know that it'll be Square IP that dominates the SquareEnix lineup)

Oh, so sales automatically indicates a critical success? You know, Pearl Harbor sold extremely well its opening weekend too...until audiences realized what a steaming pile of shit it was and stopped going to see it. Would you call Pearl Harbor a success?

BTW, FFVIII still holds the record for Final Fantasy game sales at 8 million copies. FFX didn't even come close to this number (6.4 mil as I recall) so I wouldn't be so quick to call FFX a success based on sales either. As for FFX-2, I guess we'll have to wait for the worldwide release.

[SirNitram]

As for the complaint 'FF games shouldn't be the same', no, they shouldn't. But after seven games, they had an established 'feel'. It was an odd mix of steampunk and high fantasy, of ruins of golden ages and strange powers at work. What do we get in eight? A modern world where the only mystic forces are so common they're taught in school. I suppose one could work wonders with such a setting, but this completely alien setting, combined with the incredibly tedium of the game, and the slowly building plot alienated myself, and I'm sure a good deal of others.

I sometimes wonder if Eight would've been better accepted if it hadn't been packaged as a FF, but rather released under a different title.

Probably, but I still loathed the Draw system and the tedium involved. But I am one Gamer out of millions.