An ethical question.
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
This was done on the Twilight Zone, or a spin-off along the same genre. That is, an old man delivered a box to a poor family and told them that if they pushed the button, they would get a million bucks and someone that they didn't know would die. They pushed the button and so the next day the old man came back to collect the box and drop off the dough. The family asked what will happen next. He replied, "This box will be given to someone that you don't know."
XPViking
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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might if they screamed all the time for no good reason.
- Lord of the Farce
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There is also the matter of long term considerations. How do you know that the person that will die won't be someone who could turn out to be someone who could benefit you or the whole world years down the track? Something that seems insignifigant today might make all the difference in the future... Who knows, maybe me posting this means that the person who would otherwise press the button when I'm the target won't, because they read this and remembered my point?
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- Lagmonster
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Darth Wong wrote:Of course, when you push the button, you discover the researcher's fiendish plan: the button is wired to high explosives. The person who will die is YOU.
Bloody hell, go to sleep for one night and I miss the opportunity to make a really clever point by about ten posts.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
- Stormbringer
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To quote Bobba FettYes, it was done with intent not mere the randomness of nature. Sure the person may be random but it was done knowing someone would die.
When a Rockslide crushs a village its a sad thing, However if a sentient being caused that rockslide then it is evil
just playing Devils Advocet here
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But determinists would argue that nothing that we do is the result of our having decided to do it. We - and all our actions - to them, are the sum result of the circumstances that surround us.Stormbringer wrote:Yes, it was done with intent not mere the randomness of nature. Sure the person may be random but it was done knowing someone would die.Mr Bean wrote:People die, is pushing the button, by itself a random act any more diffrent than a bolt of lightning?
Hi, I'm Arminius, but I'm pretending to be somebody else in order to convince you that there are people on your own side who disagree with the terrible, awful way in which you treated him and all of his donkey-fucking white-supremacist friends.
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Then those determinists are just plain stupid. And the argument is moronic. If I choose to kill someone, it's on my free will.Daedalus wrote:But determinists would argue that nothing that we do is the result of our having decided to do it. We - and all our actions - to them, are the sum result of the circumstances that surround us.Stormbringer wrote:Yes, it was done with intent not mere the randomness of nature. Sure the person may be random but it was done knowing someone would die.Mr Bean wrote:People die, is pushing the button, by itself a random act any more diffrent than a bolt of lightning?
Of course, then I could tell the judge it was fate, after all, not my own fault.
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But do you feel that way because of your inherent 'you-ness'? Or because life, through its myriad circumstances, has indoctrinated you to feel that way?
This is the dilemma of determinism. You are the product of everything around you, for as long as you have been... around.
This is the dilemma of determinism. You are the product of everything around you, for as long as you have been... around.
Hi, I'm Arminius, but I'm pretending to be somebody else in order to convince you that there are people on your own side who disagree with the terrible, awful way in which you treated him and all of his donkey-fucking white-supremacist friends.
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To hell with solipsistic ideasDaedalus wrote:But do you feel that way because of your inherent 'you-ness'? Or because life, through its myriad circumstances, has indoctrinated you to feel that way?
This is the dilemma of determinism. You are the product of everything around you, for as long as you have been... around.
If I decide to kill you, It will be a conscious act and I'll have to answer for it. It is nobody's responsabilty but my own
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Determinism is irrelevant when discussing questions of morality. Such questions simply ask whether an action is good or bad; questioning the existence of "free will" is an irrelevant red-herring. Whether an action is caused by free will or determinism, we still must decide if it is moral or not.Daedalus wrote:But do you feel that way because of your inherent 'you-ness'? Or because life, through its myriad circumstances, has indoctrinated you to feel that way?
This is the dilemma of determinism. You are the product of everything around you, for as long as you have been... around.
As for this question, it is a bit of a complex question fallacy because as a self-declared "ethical question", it actually combines two questions into one:
- Is it moral to push that button?
- Would you push the button?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Wow, didn't notice this thread till now.
Yes, but only if I got to choose.
DorkStar, Arminiass, Chick, Kin'ai'di and a few others come to mind....
and I get freakin' paid for killing them too!
Yes, but only if I got to choose.
DorkStar, Arminiass, Chick, Kin'ai'di and a few others come to mind....
and I get freakin' paid for killing them too!
::sig removed because it STILL offended Kelly. Hey, it's not my fault that I thing Wedge is a::
Kelly: SHUT UP ALREADY!
Kelly: SHUT UP ALREADY!
For those of you who will push the button, would it change anything if the person to be killed were in the room with you? Say he's there, sitting in front of you, but he doesn't know what's going on. You will receive the money if you push the button, causing him to die right before your eyes. Will that affect your actions? Why or why not?
I prepared Explosive Runes today.
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Can I push the button multiple times? If I could pick who dies of course.
my list
1."Father"
2. Dubya
3. Rev. Phelps
4. Rev. Falwell
5. Chick
6. Robertson
7. Ascroft
8.Darkstar
9.The pope
10. another random person that I happen to want to smite at the time
I get 100 million dollars for doing the world 10 favors
my list
1."Father"
2. Dubya
3. Rev. Phelps
4. Rev. Falwell
5. Chick
6. Robertson
7. Ascroft
8.Darkstar
9.The pope
10. another random person that I happen to want to smite at the time
I get 100 million dollars for doing the world 10 favors
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Factio republicanum delenda est
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There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
Factio republicanum delenda est
- Colonel Olrik
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He also comdems millions to die each year because the Catholic church and its followers belive talking about sex and STD prevention is wrong, and forbid it in countrys where they hold swayHey!The Pope is actually a nice guy!
He has given signs of great personnal courage and opened many doors towards society and other religions.
Don't wish his death, there are many people much more deserving!
Which is why fourty two million people will die in the next ten years....
The Catholic churchs hands are as bloody as Hitlers... But in a diffrent way.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
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I know that. In those matters, he is hopelessly wrong and outdated. The church has to open its eyes toward sex issues.
But, in many other aspects, he deserves respect. He's not a fundie. He has contributed to the end of the Cold War. He has made an aproach of active tolerance towards other religions, respectfully visiting their sacred places and praying with their priests.
He, I believe, actually wants to make the world a better place for everybody, not only for the people of a certain race or creed
But, in many other aspects, he deserves respect. He's not a fundie. He has contributed to the end of the Cold War. He has made an aproach of active tolerance towards other religions, respectfully visiting their sacred places and praying with their priests.
He, I believe, actually wants to make the world a better place for everybody, not only for the people of a certain race or creed
So by that reasoning if Hitler had been an OTHERWISE nice guy it would be ok with youBut, in many other aspects, he deserves respect. He's not a fundie. He has contributed to the end of the Cold War. He has made an aproach of active tolerance towards other religions, respectfully visiting their sacred places and praying with their priests.
He, I believe, actually wants to make the world a better place for everybody, not only for the people of a certain race or creed
You know what your saying
*Sure he has the deaths of millions of people on his hands but once you get to know him and ignore the whole mass murder part, he's realy a nice guy!
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- Colonel Olrik
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That's it, die!
Still, there's a difference between not condoning the use of preservative, because of morality issues, and ordering the mass termination of millions and starting a war which killed tens of million more.
He advocates abstinence until marriage and respect the votes afterwards, which, if followed, would also result in avoiding the propagation of aids. So, as moronic as this view is, if people followed what he says entirely aids would still be fought efficiently
Still, there's a difference between not condoning the use of preservative, because of morality issues, and ordering the mass termination of millions and starting a war which killed tens of million more.
He advocates abstinence until marriage and respect the votes afterwards, which, if followed, would also result in avoiding the propagation of aids. So, as moronic as this view is, if people followed what he says entirely aids would still be fought efficiently
Yes one of the Previous Popes did that.. Remeber the Crusades?Still, there's a difference between not condoning the use of preservative, because of morality issues, and ordering the mass termination of millions and starting a war which killed tens of million more.
No they would not, these people don't KNOW they have AIDS because the Church Forbids the testing and knowledge for the people to even KNOW they have AIDS, All Abstence means is that instead of each of the people dieing at the same time they have an extra month or two at lifeHe advocates abstinence until marriage and respect the votes afterwards, which, if followed, would also result in avoiding the propagation of aids. So, as moronic as this view is, if people followed what he says entirely aids would still be fought efficiently
IN NO WAY DOES ABSTIENCE UNTIL MARRAGE HELP FIGHT AIDS or HIV!
Thats STILL unprotected Sex, it can take YEARS for AIDS to manfeest and outside of the US few people know until YEARS later that they have HIV at all and typicaly don't know until it turns into AIDS
Seriously this is not rampet sex-vill here, the problem is the people don't know, The Church won't teach and they are all going to DIE because of the Church's refusal to spread info....
His *Method does NOTHING to prevent the spread of HIV, people are still infected, just a month or so latter, thier kids are all infected so they will be dieing later on in life as well, Its a Vicoious cycle and the CHURCH helps propgate it
I'm sorry but this happens to be one of my(And also a few other posters, inculding Wong's) greatest annoce with the Church
The blood of these people is on thier hands
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
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I'm talking about this pope, the Man, not the Pope in general.Mr Bean wrote: Yes one of the Previous Popes did that.. Remeber the Crusades?
And there is certainly a way that abstinence (or maintaining very few partners) and being true after the wedding fight HIV. The major cause of its propagation is trough sex. The less random sexual partners you have in your life the less probability you have of getting it.
Of course, that's not the procedure I follow, I simple use a condom, but it remains true nonetheless
I agree with you on the rest. The Church has done a hateful job, and the situation in Africa is so dramatic that no kind Church speak can help. They are effectively helping killing the people, as not being cause of the solution
Yes just as one can drop sixteen 200 Megaton Nukes over The African Contenet would fight HIV *in a way toAnd there is certainly a way that abstinence (or maintaining very few partners) and being true after the wedding fight HIV. The major cause of its propagation is trough sex. The less random sexual partners you have in your life the less probability you have of getting it.
Its NOT helpful, admit it already
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
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Teaching that abstinence will prevent AIDS is not harmful. However, so-called "abstinence-only" sex ed programs deliberately REFRAIN from teaching about any other methods of preventing the spread of AIDS. This deliberate silence is DEFINITELY harmful.Colonel Olrik wrote:I's definitely not helpful in Africa. I've already agreed on that
On western countries, with low numbers on HIV, specially disregarding the ones from drug consume, it is.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Answer to the thread question
Okay everyone likes to claim that we are all guided by our morals, and we in the position of others (say soldiers who commit attrocities by following orders) would take a moral stand and say no! I myself once held this position. However once I raised this question with my sister (currently completing her Doctorite in Neural Psycoligy) she told me of a study back in the 60's that totally shook my view on this.
Basically the study was trying to determine whether or not people would 'draw the line' when they were aparty to un-ethical behaivour. How this study worked was the following;
Psycologist would ask for people to participate in the study for a certain fee. They were to be in a room by themselves and they would be sitting infront of a consol with one light and one button and one dial. The button, they were told was a switch that when depressed would send a jolt of electric current through another person in another room when they did something wrong. The people were also told that each time the light turned on they would depress the said button *and* turn the dial slightly so that more and more current would be applied each subsiquent push of the button.
Now each time the person pushed the button, they could *hear* a human scream issuing from an ajoining room. Each subsequent scream would get louder and louder, until finally the screams stopped. Do you want to know how many people stopped pushing the button before the screams stopped?
None. Not one. Zip.
This is scary.
Basically the study was trying to determine whether or not people would 'draw the line' when they were aparty to un-ethical behaivour. How this study worked was the following;
Psycologist would ask for people to participate in the study for a certain fee. They were to be in a room by themselves and they would be sitting infront of a consol with one light and one button and one dial. The button, they were told was a switch that when depressed would send a jolt of electric current through another person in another room when they did something wrong. The people were also told that each time the light turned on they would depress the said button *and* turn the dial slightly so that more and more current would be applied each subsiquent push of the button.
Now each time the person pushed the button, they could *hear* a human scream issuing from an ajoining room. Each subsequent scream would get louder and louder, until finally the screams stopped. Do you want to know how many people stopped pushing the button before the screams stopped?
None. Not one. Zip.
This is scary.
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