Mandatory military service

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-09 04:58am

Knife wrote:snipThe real training comes when you get to your unit.

Learning the SOP's of your unit and how it operates and get used to how the command structure of your NCO's and Officers do things. Boot is just to make sure you can shoot straight and march in formation, which it accomplishes rather quite well. The real training is in your unit where it makes you apart of that team.

For us its a case of basic then trade training teaches you the skills a basic soldier needs to able to perform in a unit then you go to your unit and and go from there.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-09-17 12:32am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Vietnam is a shitty example to discuss because of the massive negative public and media reaction to the war.

Well actually it was a vet who had enlisted who told me, not some hippie.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-09-17 12:34am

Hamel wrote:You're going to hear two sides to the stories about the quality of draftees. Many will say that, if the draftees don't want to be there, they won't perform well when the time comes. Others will either blow it off, or make the claim that the military will instill values and responsibility, etc, in the citizenry so it's worth it.

I call bullshit on that, because any values you pick up from the military can be gained from elsewhere in life.

but do you think to the extent that the military teaches you, things like duty, etc? We all have some experience with it, we have responsibilities but defending a country is a probably the biggest one. I'm not a military type, but I'm not sure I understand it like they do.

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-09-17 12:35am

I also think we should let criminals in prison for nonviolent crimes to work off their sentences in the military on a 3:1 deal, 3 years in prison for one year in the military. Its already like a prison.

Unless they'd value the skills they'd be taught, wouldn't they rather sit on thier asses then do hard work?

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-09-17 12:38am

I was born Singaporean, and all Singaporean males are forced into conscription at the age of 18. I found it depressing and horrifying from the day I was enlisted till the day my term of "service" (smirk) ended. It quite frankly made me sick to my soul to have two and half of the best years of my life so utterly wasted like that.

Sounds like you really hated it. How much do you like Singapore though, I guess you didn't hate it enough to leave before it started and never come back. Unless well, if they knew where you were in world could and would they send someone to fetch you?

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-17 11:20pm

I was born Singaporean, and all Singaporean males are forced into conscription at the age of 18. I found it depressing and horrifying from the day I was enlisted till the day my term of "service" (smirk) ended. It quite frankly made me sick to my soul to have two and half of the best years of my life so utterly wasted like that.

At least you guys will be much better prepared in event of a war with a certain unreasonable neighbour over water

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-09-18 12:11am

The modern US Army and the Army of Vietnam and Cold War are two completely different animals. Today's Army isn't designed to handle an influx of draftees, and frankly we'd have nowhere to put them. Ours is now a small, lethal, and agile force of professionals. The only way I would support a draft is if our nation were mobilizing for a full-scale war against an opponent like Russia or the PRC. Even then, the redesign of our force structure that would be required probably wouldn't be worth the effort.

Xisiqomelir · Post by **Xisiqomelir** » 2003-09-18 03:56am

Shrykull wrote:Sounds like you really hated it. How much do you like Singapore though, I guess you didn't hate it enough to leave before it started and never come back. Unless well, if they knew where you were in world could and would they send someone to fetch you?

Singapore is such a pariah nation that I think hardly anyone has extradition treaties with it.

The main reason people put up with it is so that they can go back later on. Lots of people simply leave, but the option to come back and gouge the country in revenge later on is about as appealing.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-18 04:11am

Xisiqomelir wrote:
Shrykull wrote:Sounds like you really hated it. How much do you like Singapore though, I guess you didn't hate it enough to leave before it started and never come back. Unless well, if they knew where you were in world could and would they send someone to fetch you?
Singapore is such a pariah nation that I think hardly anyone has extradition treaties with it.

The main reason people put up with it is so that they can go back later on. Lots of people simply leave, but the option to come back and gouge the country in revenge later on is about as appealing.

?? Pariah nation, Singapore? where you get that?

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-09-18 04:19am

Singapore is such a pariah nation that I think hardly anyone has extradition treaties with it.

i didn't think singapore was so negatively viewed, considering it's a trading nation and active ASEAN/commonweath member..........
[/quote]

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-18 04:33am

I remember that Michael Faye incident, waaaay back in 94

Hi, let's cane a kid for petty vandalism

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-18 04:46am

You break the law then you deserve punishment.

If you break the law in a foreign country, you should be punished as they see it. Law breaking foriegners should not receive special treatment.

Personally, I wouldn't have cared if they executed the bastard...

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-18 04:49am

Faye got exactly what he asked for and deserved. It was a well-known fact all over the world that Singapore had very draconian laws about littering and vandalism, and he must have known about them because he was over there. All people going to Singapore at that time were specifically warned about these things on approach to airport, so Faye could not plead ignorance.

And it's not like the US gives a flying fuck about what sort of outrage its sentencing foreign nationals to death for crimes committed in the US raises in those people's home countries. I'd just drop it, Hamel.

Doesn't mean I agree with caning as a punishment, I don't, but I also don't seek to protect people from the consequences of their own stupidity. And for the US president to try and intercede on Faye's behalf when the US government ignores all requests on the death penalty for foreign nationals issue was just disgraceful.

Edi

Shrykull · Post by **Shrykull** » 2003-09-19 02:35am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:You break the law then you deserve punishment.

If you break the law in a foreign country, you should be punished as they see it. Law breaking foriegners should not receive special treatment.

Personally, I wouldn't have cared if they executed the bastard...

I'm really not sure he did it. He and a friend of his who was also interrogated said they beat him until he gave him the answer they wanted to hear. That they just confessed to something they didn't commit just to stop getting beaten. I remember a news report before the Michael Faye incident about Singapore was thier philosophy toward criminals was detect, prove and punish but I'm not sure they didn't prove it in that case, or there wouldn't be an interrogation, and it also said that drug trafficing there is punishable by death.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-19 02:37am

If Faye was forced to confess by beatings, then the matter is different. If not, there iosn't a problem.

Edi

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-19 07:37am

Edi wrote:If Faye was forced to confess by beatings, then the matter is different. If not, there iosn't a problem.

Edi

It's funny that wasn't brought up all over the news when they were making such a big deal about his case. I would have thought the US press would have been screaming about him being "tortured" into confessing.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-20 04:10pm

Tsyroc wrote:
Edi wrote:If Faye was forced to confess by beatings, then the matter is different. If not, there iosn't a problem.

Edi
It's funny that wasn't brought up all over the news when they were making such a big deal about his case. I would have thought the US press would have been screaming about him being "tortured" into confessing.

So would I, which is why I'm inclined to dismiss that claim as bullshit. If it was important enough for the US president to make a personal appeal on his behalf, then it would have been all over the place if he really had been tortured.

Edi

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2003-09-21 12:32am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Roman military service was one way to get CITIZENSHIP, not something everyone born in the Roman empire had.

I think that putting in 2 years after highschool would be beneficial to kids. Teach them some skills, some discipline, physical fitness, and they get money for college.

There might not be so many burnouts, and this would put them in support positions so that in the event of a conflict the conscripts wouldn't be put into combat situations.

Of course, this is my own idealistic idea.

I also think we should let criminals in prison for nonviolent crimes to work off their sentences in the military on a 3:1 deal, 3 years in prison for one year in the military. Its already like a prison.

Compulsory military service doesn't make a lot of sense in an army that requires people to be somewhat adept at learning technology, no matter how over-built and idiot-resistant the DOD can make it. It's nice if you have a massive army where you hand a rifle to some poor schmuck and say "Point this end to the enemy and pull the trigger," but that kind of warfare is going to become less and less prevalent in coming years.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-21 12:37am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:snip It's nice if you have a massive army where you hand a rifle to some poor schmuck and say "Point this end to the enemy and pull the trigger," but that kind of warfare is going to become less and less prevalent in coming years.

A lot depends on the nation you are and the type of war you intend to fight and its duration, combined with your ability to produce munitions.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-21 12:40am

The US military may technically be an AVF, but not all the volunteers join up quite so voluntarily. My Marine friend (who I've mentioned in a few other threads) joined as an alternative to going to jail (minor offense). Those don't exactly strike me as the most beneficial volunteers to add to the service (though it did admittedly get him straightened out...he's planning on returning to college once he finishes his term).

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-09-21 06:57am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Compulsory military service doesn't make a lot of sense in an army that requires people to be somewhat adept at learning technology, no matter how over-built and idiot-resistant the DOD can make it. It's nice if you have a massive army where you hand a rifle to some poor schmuck and say "Point this end to the enemy and pull the trigger," but that kind of warfare is going to become less and less prevalent in coming years.

You make some pretty harsh generalisations about modern conscript armies and their training. Here, for example, conscripts may receive training which allows them to be aircraft or helicopter mechanics, signalist (including electronic warfare and aerial surveillance/observation) and so on. Granted, all this is usually supervised by a commisioned officer, and high-tech branches such as Air Force and Navy have more professional soldiers than the "more low-tech" Army -- most of our ship crews consist of commisioned men, as do all our pilots.

I concede to the claim that an average professional soldier knows a lot more than a conscript, but the latter may have one advantage over the former: they come from all walks of life. Ok, the last bit may sound generalisation too, but I hope you understand what I mean.

- Oberleutnant, recruit ViestiR / E-SVP / 1. ViestiK

(who is in favour of turning our conscript military into professional one)

ReinnResauq · Post by **ReinnResauq** » 2003-10-08 02:54am

Ok, after a long hiatus after getting my ass kicked (because I have a tendency to be a...what's the word...god I used to eat it all the time...oh yeah, a pussy), I'm back with a few comments before I ship out to MCRD in San Diego next week.

I highly doubt the American people would dare tolerate another period of conscription. The idea of possibly losing another generation is too much to take.
That being said, I agree with those here who wonder what we would do with those who are conscripted. Even if the Army is suffering from a horrible shortage of people at the moment (they need about 150,000 people posted overseas and they only have about 110,000. 40,000 Reservists are going to be serving double terms), they don't need a whole bunch of infantryman, which is what they'd get if they started drafting.

In a related story, mandatory military service wouldn't work now because most of the jobs require a fair amount of intelligence beyond the capacity to use Windows 98 se, something a depressing lot of people my age don't possess. You know, there is a reason a high school diploma (not a GED) is required to become a Marine.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-10-08 03:13am

You know, there is a reason a high school diploma (not a GED) is required to become a Marine.

No, a highschool diploma is required for the oppertunity to become a Marine. You won't get called a Marine until you walk out on the parade ground in MCRD in about 13 weeks to graduate.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-10-08 03:23pm

One of the most effective and leathal armies in the world uses conscripts very effectively. Israel. Agree with Israel or disagree, they have a very effective military that consripts both men and women, which are trained to fight with mostly US equipment , and alot of it is hightech.

Of course a all volunteer force is the better option, and historically has shown, they will out perform a conscription army.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-08 03:35pm

The Dark wrote:The US military may technically be an AVF, but not all the volunteers join up quite so voluntarily. My Marine friend (who I've mentioned in a few other threads) joined as an alternative to going to jail (minor offense). Those don't exactly strike me as the most beneficial volunteers to add to the service (though it did admittedly get him straightened out...he's planning on returning to college once he finishes his term).

The US military hates such people, and generally rejects them if its aware of why there joining.