Macross versus Star Wars

[Mr Bean]

There was one point you had right, Zentraedi ships lack shilds, but the hull is self repairing.

Let me say this so you can understand for pratical purposes, every single ISD mounts 50 Relfex cannons
But.. Bigger faster, and they fire every 2 seconds

[Darth_Shinji]

Hmm, a number of things to respond to...

First of all, not every Zent ship has a Reflex Cannon. In fact, there's some debate over whether any ship besides the Monitor even mounts them -- and onlya small portion of the fleet was composed of Monitors.

Yeah, that why only one reflex hit was shown to hit the earth, and that destroied a landmass of unknown size... could of been an island or a contient for all we know.


But just for the record, the blasts that were used on palmer and the other planet were not reflex cannons. Zentradi weapons are often disgunized by thier coloration and apperance, these were blue blasts, and more ships apperently have them, hell of a recharge time too.

Shinji, IIRC at the begining of New Generation (season 3 of Robotech, or MOSPEADA on the Japanese end), we see several clear shots of Earth from orbit. I don't remember seeing any major land-masses missing.

When I get the chance, I'll go and back-check the episode that shows those two planets being slagged, but I seem to recall that being a staged demonstration for the express purpose of intimidating the humans. The actual real battle over earth later on is, well, a REAL battle. Clearly, the "BDZ" ability of the Zentradi is better judged by the attack on earth. Or at least, that's how I've seen things so far. Like I said, I'll have to rewatch that earlier episode.

Thats mosepedia, now for robotech you would have a point, but this is Macross.

And I'm sick and tired of people ingorning two examples of high end zentradi firepower calcs, feelijg willing to explain them away, yet don't like to explain the eart bdz. Here are a two:

1, the ships of the zentradi fleet had just performed a single jump of unknown size from where their were stationed. There energy might of been drained, and this is surported by the fact that they didn't have enought energy to destrod the grand cannon base, even after being attacked and with plenty of time to continue before the minmay attack. They did attack it, but there went using the blasts that just destoied cities, you can clearly see that when they fired.

2, earth wasn't Buldoza's main goal. He wanted to destroy the macross and the zentradi rogues. He could of decided to wound the earth in an attempt to bring the Macross to its add. This is surported by the fact that if they weren't out of energy, they could of countine to bondard the earth till it was completly destroied, even before the grand cannon fired. There refire rate is extremly fast.


The name of the planet bdz episodes were first contact and the episode before it. And before you bring it up, While Palmer doesn't exist in our solar system this isn't our solar system, we weren't attacked by aliens. And the original japenense daioluge names it a planet.

[Darth_Shinji]

I also want to point out that while there zent ships do not have shields, theier ships are tough. They took icbm hits early in the show and where not scatched, they also survived ramming into each other if I remember correctly.

[Mr Bean]

ICBM?
Heh heh heh heh

Sure tough in comparsion but your talking about five or so magnitude's higher in damage

[greenmm]

I also want to point out that while there zent ships do not have shields, theier ships are tough. They took icbm hits early in the show and where not scatched, they also survived ramming into each other if I remember correctly.

Actually, they don't.

We see a Thuverl Salan "Destroyer" (2 km long ship, IIRC that puts it in the size class of an ISD or VSD) hit on the nose with an ICBM-style missile fired from the ARMD's. It was fried, the nuclear fireball completely disintigrating it.

Had it had some shielding, perhaps it could have survived that blast...

[Darth_Shinji]

I also want to point out that while there zent ships do not have shields, theier ships are tough. They took icbm hits early in the show and where not scatched, they also survived ramming into each other if I remember correctly.

Actually, they don't.

We see a Thuverl Salan "Destroyer" (2 km long ship, IIRC that puts it in the size class of an ISD or VSD) hit on the nose with an ICBM-style missile fired from the ARMD's. It was fried, the nuclear fireball completely disintigrating it.

Had it had some shielding, perhaps it could have survived that blast...

No, I belive it survived it. I'll go back and look. What episode is it do you know? I think its 3 or 4 I'll check.

[greenmm]

greenmm:

Just to travel straight-line 50,000 LY (conservative estimate of the distance from the Rim to Coruscant) would take them about 45 weeks

Just courious where you got this number. Are you talking about a Space fold? I always thought a Space Fold was the fastest form of travel.

Spacefolds weren't instantaneous. The Macross OSM (Original Source Material) quotes Zentraedi fold drives as being able to travel 1 LY every 9 minutes, which works out to 6 2/3 LY/hour. 50,000 LY would take 450,000 minutes (7,500 hours, or 312.5 days).

[greenmm]

I also want to point out that while there zent ships do not have shields, theier ships are tough. They took icbm hits early in the show and where not scatched, they also survived ramming into each other if I remember correctly.

Actually, they don't.

We see a Thuverl Salan "Destroyer" (2 km long ship, IIRC that puts it in the size class of an ISD or VSD) hit on the nose with an ICBM-style missile fired from the ARMD's. It was fried, the nuclear fireball completely disintigrating it.

Had it had some shielding, perhaps it could have survived that blast...

No, I belive it survived it. I'll go back and look. What episode is it do you know? I think its 3 or 4 I'll check.

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

[Darth_Shinji]

Actually, they don't.

We see a Thuverl Salan "Destroyer" (2 km long ship, IIRC that puts it in the size class of an ISD or VSD) hit on the nose with an ICBM-style missile fired from the ARMD's. It was fried, the nuclear fireball completely disintigrating it.

Had it had some shielding, perhaps it could have survived that blast...

No, I belive it survived it. I'll go back and look. What episode is it do you know? I think its 3 or 4 I'll check.

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

Thanks I'll check today when I get home. However, you do know reflex missles are not nukes? There blackhole weapons (Or somesort of gravity weapon). They were used on Buldoza, not nukes. And I would like to see a SD take a reflrex missle too.

[omegaLancer]

From the Marcross RPG

The Stats of a Zentran Flag ship

length 4,000 meter
height 655 meter
width 600meter

weapons systems
Heavy particle beam - 1 need 6 minutes to power up create a crater 60 miles in radius, 600 ft deep... will destroy any Zentran ship in it path!!!...
range 200,000 miles

main laser cannon -1 ( compose of dozen of smaller laser that link to fire together.) anti ship /planetary bombardments

60 fwd laser batteries Anti ship

110 laser turrets - anti fighter, anti missile

230 missile turrets - missile are mix load of anti fighter. HE, plamsa, smart bombs..

and 30,000 mecha fighters.....

MAx speed .2C

The heavy missiles are Nuclear - ranging form 10 to 30 MT..

[greenmm]

No, I belive it survived it. I'll go back and look. What episode is it do you know? I think its 3 or 4 I'll check.

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

Thanks I'll check today when I get home. However, you do know reflex missles are not nukes? There blackhole weapons (Or somesort of gravity weapon). They were used on Buldoza, not nukes. And I would like to see a SD take a reflrex missle too.

Actually, Reflex weapons are nukes. The Japanese have an aversion to using the word "nuclear", so they used the term "reaction" in place of nuclear in the original Macross. When it was translated to English, the translators flubbed, and "reaction" became "reflex".

[Mr Bean]

MAx speed .2C

Ouchys, One ISD flying Backwards at .21C while raning HTLs on thier parade could kill most of these

[greenmm]

Actually, it's worse. That 0.2c speed is an RPG convention, and uses the old sci-fi cliche of "constant thrust = constant speed". Actual sublight speed is due to reaction drives, and likely limited to a maximum delta-v of a few hundred KPS or so (0.001c max), with the practical max probably 40% of that.

[Darth_Shinji]

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

Thanks I'll check today when I get home. However, you do know reflex missles are not nukes? There blackhole weapons (Or somesort of gravity weapon). They were used on Buldoza, not nukes. And I would like to see a SD take a reflrex missle too.

Actually, Reflex weapons are nukes. The Japanese have an aversion to using the word "nuclear", so they used the term "reaction" in place of nuclear in the original Macross. When it was translated to English, the translators flubbed, and "reaction" became "reflex".

Then answer these questions for me:

A) why were reflex weapons devolped halfway during the show? I belive episode 27 has them being green-lighted, but I don't knoow for sure, also watch the episode with Buldoza's fleet in macross, I know they devolped reflex warheads and taked about making them in the robo-version, and I think it stays the same, but not sure.

B) What the hell was that "explosion" in Buldoza's ship? You are telling me nukes do that?

[VF5SS]

*Snip bullshit*

Never ever use RPG stuff as canon for Macross.

[Darth_Shinji]

*Snip bullshit*

Never ever use RPG stuff as canon for Macross.

Also If I remember correclty palluduim never gives energy ratings like mega and gigatons in their stuff, and I have the book he got those stats out of, So I'm just wondering where he got those megatons from for the missles...


Also thier speed is not as a dilberating as it sounds, even if it was true, because zentradi ships can microjump (the very first episode has them demonstrating this ability). So they can enter weapons range, rather quikly, and with the power we are talking about and that refire rate of like 2 secounds....

[VF5SS]

I'll never understand why people attempt to argue using old animation when it has trouble being internally consistent (the animators need to rest their hands, damnit!) and has numerous mistakes which go against the designer's lineart (VF-1 nose laser anyone? No they don't exist. They're FLIR cameras. the RRG just can't let it go as a Korean Studio mistake) or other downright strange things like Roy's VF-1S numerous times becoming a VF-1A in fighter mode just in the first episode alone. I know its fun, just more trouble than its worth when compared with normal sci-fi debating. My two cents...

[Rathark]

Excuse me, I'm unfamiliar with Macross.

Is this set in the 2010's AD? How can humans possibly hope to stand up to these aliens?

[Rathark]

Sorry, I've just taken a peek at the Macross chronology. Still, it's not TOO far into the future, is it?

[Damaramu]

Sorry, I've just taken a peek at the Macross chronology. Still, it's not TOO far into the future, is it?

Actually, Macross Plus and Macross 7 takes place circa 2040-2050, IIRC.

In those series, you get to see all sorts of goodies, like newer advanced variable fighters (VF-17, VF-19, VF-22) and a nice assortment of capital ships!

Plus, there's the Protodeviln and the whole spirita thing.

[Darik Sdair]

No, I belive it survived it. I'll go back and look. What episode is it do you know? I think its 3 or 4 I'll check.

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

Thanks I'll check today when I get home. However, you do know reflex missles are not nukes? There blackhole weapons (Or somesort of gravity weapon). They were used on Buldoza, not nukes. And I would like to see a SD take a reflrex missle too.

Just to clarify something:

The term "Reflex" is a mis-translation of the term "Reaction" used in the original Japanese Macross. Reaction, in Japanese science fiction, is a euphamism for "Nuclear" - it came into use because at the time it was not considered acceptable by the Japanese public for the heroes to have and use nuclear weapons.

According to the Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide, which is the basis of the -canon- Robotech.com website, the weapon seen ripping the nose off a Thuverl Salan early on is a 750 kT nuclear (reflex) device.

The ground-launcher missile that disabled a Masters' flagship in the Southern Cross portion of robotech in a single hit is rated at 3 MT.

Some people disagree with the viability of the URRG, but since it is the basis of the canon technical manual on the Robotech.com official website, I think its fair to consider it a valid secondary source where not contradicted by the canon material.

[Darik Sdair]

Yeah, that why only one reflex hit was shown to hit the earth, and that destroied a landmass of unknown size... could of been an island or a contient for all we know.


But just for the record, the blasts that were used on palmer and the other planet were not reflex cannons. Zentradi weapons are often disgunized by thier coloration and apperance, these were blue blasts, and more ships apperently have them, hell of a recharge time too.

Shinji, IIRC at the begining of New Generation (season 3 of Robotech, or MOSPEADA on the Japanese end), we see several clear shots of Earth from orbit. I don't remember seeing any major land-masses missing.

When I get the chance, I'll go and back-check the episode that shows those two planets being slagged, but I seem to recall that being a staged demonstration for the express purpose of intimidating the humans. The actual real battle over earth later on is, well, a REAL battle. Clearly, the "BDZ" ability of the Zentradi is better judged by the attack on earth. Or at least, that's how I've seen things so far. Like I said, I'll have to rewatch that earlier episode.

Don't use Mospeada to judge Zentraedi firepower as they're not in that series! (but you knew that already!)

Dama, Shinji was bringing in Robotech, so I figured it was fair game

[Darik Sdair]

They first showed it in Episode 2, IIRC, although possibly 3 or 4. It's when the Zents start their attack against the ARMD platforms in orbit, and pretty much slaughter the RDF space forces. I believe they show the sequence 2 or 3 times in the episode, and potentially again when the SDF-1 and company take down Dolza's boys.

Thanks I'll check today when I get home. However, you do know reflex missles are not nukes? There blackhole weapons (Or somesort of gravity weapon). They were used on Buldoza, not nukes. And I would like to see a SD take a reflrex missle too.

Actually, Reflex weapons are nukes. The Japanese have an aversion to using the word "nuclear", so they used the term "reaction" in place of nuclear in the original Macross. When it was translated to English, the translators flubbed, and "reaction" became "reflex".

d'oh, should have scrolled down before posting my own "reaction/reflex" rant!

[VF5SS]

The people at the Robotech reference guide are complete idiots. Sans for a few official stats gleaned from official books, they made almost everything up. As far as Macross goes, it is Big West and Big West alone that has the right to say what is and what isn't in Macross.

[Iceberg]

Considering that Macross went from the late 1990s to interstellar warfare in less than two decades, they're doing pretty well. IMO, they could easily whup the Federation's ass. But the Empire's a little out of their league yet...