TNG phasers can't be 5.1 MW (NOT a SW/ST weapons debate)

[TheDarkling]

TNG is unofficial anyway.

Questions??? Comments??

If you are going to fly off the handle over a joke Wong get you facts straight first.

No, please enlighten us all about your brilliant joke. Are you suggesting we interpret the footage as doctored? Do you have another version for comparison? No?

You obviously did get it so why ask?

All of the destruction need not have been down to the mantle just blowing up the surface - we didnt see the torp blast disapear (we pan away before hand), I see a glowing region before they have ceased fire, I see no evidence of a funky chain reaction, we know they are using standard weapons, we also know it cant be just a BDZ if they intend on doing in the mantle afterwards - the crust must be vaped or broken up and cast off so to speak.

It was 20 ships by the way (not a nitpick I just see that alot for some reason probably the Admiral saying it was wolf 359 all over agian).

The plasma torps doing GT levels of damage ha shappened before (Balance of teror) and that was some time ago with a fleet of 20 and aided by disruptors it seems possible - the fact you want to redefine Torps and disruptors as some sort of mass funky chain reaction weapon is interesting, did you consider that even with you chain reaction theory we should still see 0.1% of the destruction (unless it was a light opening volley for some reason - we didnt see all the ships firing, less than half more damage off screen or alternate firing patterns).

I would like to hear this funky Disruptor theory please - it would be interesting (you have an up hill battle because it is what creators meant - a simple mass bombardment, this is why all the characters seem fine with it and the weapons react in other situations) to see how it fits in else where.

[Darth Wong]

All of the destruction need not have been down to the mantle just blowing up the surface - we didnt see the torp blast disapear (we pan away before hand), I see a glowing region before they have ceased fire, I see no evidence of a funky chain reaction, we know they are using standard weapons, we also know it cant be just a BDZ if they intend on doing in the mantle afterwards - the crust must be vaped or broken up and cast off so to speak.

Where? Into space? Need I remind you that we should have seen superheated plasma jets shooting into space? I strongly suggest that you look up asteroid impact consequences before wasting any more time with your bizarre claims about what such high-magnitude energy releases would look like. You are far too optimistic about how much energy you can dump into a planet with piddly observed effects.

The plasma torps doing GT levels of damage ha shappened before (Balance of teror) and that was some time ago with a fleet of 20 and aided by disruptors it seems possible - the fact you want to redefine Torps and disruptors as some sort of mass funky chain reaction weapon is interesting, did you consider that even with you chain reaction theory we should still see 0.1% of the destruction (unless it was a light opening volley for some reason - we didnt see all the ships firing, less than half more damage off screen or alternate firing patterns).

Point taken. You're right; even with the funky chain reaction, it's still piddly.

I would like to hear this funky Disruptor theory please - it would be interesting (you have an up hill battle because it is what creators meant - a simple mass bombardment, this is why all the characters seem fine with it and the weapons react in other situations) to see how it fits in else where.

Really! Let's do the math, shall we? It takes most of the E-D's photorps to destroy a 5km wide asteroid (Pegasus), and I note: they needed mere fragmentation, not vapourization (never mind ejection from the planet's gravity well). The volume of an Earth-like planet's crust is approximately 300 million times larger than the volume of that asteroid. Could you please produce some examples of any starship demonstrating anywhere near this level of firepower anywhere in Trek?

Let's look at the single greatest example of firepower in Trek history: the Romulan warbird in Balance of Terror. Its weapon could be fired only rarely, since it drained the ship of power. It was clearly a one-shot, one-kill weapon, and the crew of the Enterprise obviously knew that a direct hit would annihilate them instantly. Why do you assume that the weapons they have in TNG, which are much more convenient and far less deadly to opposing ships, must be more powerful?

PS. Don't fall back on the tired assumption that newer = more powerful. Nuclear weapons from 1960 are far more powerful than nuclear weapons today.

[Anarchist Bunny]

To explain the strength of the So'na Warships, do we know if they had warp cores on them?

Sorta like fighting someone with a flamethower while you have a metal pole and 45 pounds of tnt straped onto your back with fuses everywhere.

[TheDarkling]

The Romulan Plasma torp did have a small ROF but we know they still use Plasma torps today so I would expect them to still be in the same sort of range.

Again you bring up TNG - my entire point was that without TNG Trek becomes stronger, the fact you keep bringing up TNG proves my point well, also the Pegasus asteriod wasnt usual (funky gravity yadda yadda etc) and I have seen calcs that give that incident GT levels of firepower (based upon it having more mass than it should).

We also have an asteriod moon that Rikers first instinct is "blow it up" yet if the Peagus example holds true then its way beyond there power to do so - why suggest it and before you call Riker an idiot hes the one who gives us the Peagus "it will take most of out torps" quote.

Im still waiting to here the specifics of your funky chain reaction theory.

[Australopithicus]

"No, it isn't. A Borg cube is visibly un-armoured." - Darth Wong

It really depends on which type of cube you're talking about. If you're talking about a normal Borg cube, then I agree. However, it does have a high amount of shielding, thus quoting the Borg Queen in 'Dark Frontier':

"Our shields are failing. What do you suggest we do?"

Therefore, it has shielding. The first Borg cube that the Enterprise came across in system J - 25 appeared to have no shields at all until it adapted to the frequency of the Enterprise's phasers, and the photon torpedoes seemed to do no damage anyway. This presents the problem of the Borg only having shielding once they've adapted, and then it's impenetrable, except for the good ole transphasic torpedo

However, there is one cube with visible armour. It is the Borg tactical cube, seen in 'Unimatrix Zero'. Unfortunately, It doesn't have a fight with Voyager (not one that I know of, anyway), and is ordered to self - destruct by the Borg queen. Therefore, we really can't say what its' armour capabilities are. In fact, we don't even know what it's made of. If the Borg ships are made of Tetraburnium alloy (which seems reasonable, as Seven of Nine oh - so matter of factly states that it's more efficient than Tritanium, and it would be reasonable to say that the Borg have subsequently been well, erm, 'acquainted' with Tetraburnium alloys before), then the armour may be just a sort of hull brace. It might even be ablative armour. However, we don't really know. But the tactical cube DOES have armour.

[SPOOFE]

The Romulan Plasma torp did have a small ROF but we know they still use Plasma torps today so I would expect them to still be in the same sort of range.

The nomenclature of the device is irrelevent. The plasma torp from TOS was significantly different, visually, than the plasma torps seen in TNG. For one, the apparent size of the weapon is much smaller in TNG, if I recall correctly.

What does this tell us? Either it's a completely different weapon, or the Romulans altered the weapon significantly from TOS to TNG. Perhaps they decided that a gigantic "one shot one kill" weapon wasn't as useful as numerous smaller "many shots one kill" weapons. This makes a direct estimation of the TOS plasma torp's power a tad iffy (to say the least) as evidence of the TNG torp's power.

[Patrick Degan]

It has to be observed at this point that any claims for photon torpedoes being capable of megaton-range blast yields are directly contraindicated by the canon evidence of the movies and television episodes. One of the most direct examples derives straight from the movie Star Trek III: In Search Of Spock. Commander Kruge's Bird of Prey took a direct hit, while unshielded, from an Enterprise photorp and suffered only minor internal damage. The photorps fired from Gen. Chang's BOP in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country exhibit no greater power —particularly the one which hit the unshielded Enterprise and blew through the saucer section. In either case, the target ship should have vanished in a large nuclear fireball if the weapons in question had megaton-range yields.

The Romulan Plasma torp did have a small ROF but we know they still use Plasma torps today so I would expect them to still be in the same sort of range.

Excuse me, but we know no such thing. No episode of TNG or DS9 shows Romulan starships firing the plasma implosion-field weapon from "Balance Of Terror". The range limitation and power drain proved it to be a useless weapon in starship combat. By the time of "The Enterprise Incident", the Romulans had completely abandoned its use in favour of standard disruptors and photorps.

Again you bring up TNG - my entire point was that without TNG Trek becomes stronger

Utterly immaterial. And incorrect as well —the episodes "Errand Of Mercy", "The Deadly Years", and "Elaan Of Troyus" belie claims of superior starship weaponry in TOS over that of TNG. And in any case, TNG is canon, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, and its episodes provide us with the capabilities of "contemporary" Federation weaponry.

also the Pegasus asteriod wasn't usual (funky gravity yadda yadda etc)

The "funky gravity yadda yadda yadda" is based upon the fact that the body in question is too damn small to exhibit any significant gravity of its own. Furthermore, this is not atypical of most asteroidal masses to be found within our own solar system.

and I have seen calcs that give that incident GT levels of firepower (based upon it having more mass than it should).

None of which are relevant to the physics of the situation.

We also have an asteriod moon that Rikers first instinct is "blow it up" yet if the Peagus example holds true then its way beyond there power to do so - why suggest it and before you call Riker an idiot hes the one who gives us the Peagus "it will take most of out torps" quote.

Episode reference, please.

I'm still waiting to here the specifics of your funky chain reaction theory.

You should try going to the main Stardestroyer.net site for discussion of the Nuclear Disruption Force theory advanced to explain the physics-defying behaviour of phasers and the similar disruptor weapon. During the course of that discussion, the TDiC incident is examined in detail. The lack of massive reaction thrust away from the Founders' homeworld by the starships of the fleet when they unleash their firepower belies any direct-energy-transfer-based explanation for the mechanism of their weapons.

In any case, whether the weird physics of that situation forces us to fall back upon exotic chain-reaction theories to explain the event, or we attempt to simply apply standard physical models to the attack upon the Founders' homeworld in TDiC, we still do not see destruction consistent with gigaton-level blasts occuring upon the surface. We do not see exposed mantle nor any sort of massive exothermic exchanges or pressure-wave displacements which would significantly disrupt the atmosphere far beyond what is actually seen in the episode in question. The fact that the level of destruction did not even disrupt the operation of the transmitter sending up false lifesign sensor signals (which Garak picks up on immediately) to the fleet tells us that something far less than gigaton-level blasts are occurring anywhere on the planet.

[TheDarkling]

Why do people jump in the middle of a debate and make complete idiots out of themselves?

First the Romulan plasma torp looks very different than it does on the viewscreen (we see this when the Ent-Nil is attacked by Romulans in The Deadly Years), we see Cardy weapon implacements using Plasma torps and they look similar to Romulan torp weapons (we also know the Romulans still have Plasma torps).

The range limitation was 64 Million KM LOW END - I dont see that as any reason to get rid of it and the ROF is approx once a minute during the Deadly Years (possibly lower powered blasts) - we also know that the current romulan Plasma torp doesnt display a ROF equal to Photon torps - yet another link.

No fool it is not immaterial if you had read the thread you would have found out I was comparing TNG to DS9 not TNG to TOS - the entire basis of my light hearted comment (that Wong has blown out of all proprotion and misinterpreted aswell since he misread what I originally said and simply jumped to a conclusion) was that TNG wasnt canon.

Yes it is too small to exhibit gravity of its own - yet it does, therefore it isnt normal.

The episode I speak of is Deja Q.

As for the transmitter not being destroyed - we arent talking about the entire planet beijng affected at this point just 0.1% of it and as such its very possible that the transmitter isnt in the affected area.

[Darth Wong]

Why do people jump in the middle of a debate and make complete idiots out of themselves?

Is that worse than starting the debate and making a complete idiot out of yourself?

First the Romulan plasma torp looks very different than it does on the viewscreen (we see this when the Ent-Nil is attacked by Romulans in The Deadly Years), we see Cardy weapon implacements using Plasma torps and they look similar to Romulan torp weapons (we also know the Romulans still have Plasma torps).

The viewscreen is optical (that's why they can't see the warbird even though their sensors CAN pick it up). That's the way the plasma torp looked. If subsequent models looked different, it would obviously mean that they WERE different. What part of this don't you understand? As for Cardy weapons looking just like the weapon in "Balance of Terror", I'm afraid we'll have to ask for screenshots, since I don't recall ever seeing one.

The range limitation was 64 Million KM LOW END - I dont see that as any reason to get rid of it and the ROF is approx once a minute during the Deadly Years (possibly lower powered blasts) - we also know that the current romulan Plasma torp doesnt display a ROF equal to Photon torps - yet another link.

And you don't see this as a contradiction of far, far shorter ranges in TNG and (even more so) DS9? Why would Kirk think this a weakness, particularly since the Klingon ship in "Elaan of Troyius" had to approach to within a few tens of thousands of km in order to fire?

You are assuming the E-Nil actually made reverse warp speed. This implies that the torp accelerated to FTL in an accel curve which matched the E-Nil so precisely that it appeared to be continuously approaching the whole time. The fact is that reverse warp speed has never been observed ANYWHERE. They might have applied the full power of their warp core to their impulse engines to go backwards as quickly as possible (Star Trek often muddies the distinction between warp power and warp speed).

No fool it is not immaterial if you had read the thread you would have found out I was comparing TNG to DS9 not TNG to TOS - the entire basis of my light hearted comment (that Wong has blown out of all proprotion and misinterpreted aswell since he misread what I originally said and simply jumped to a conclusion) was that TNG wasnt canon.

No, the TM wasn't canon. Your new argument (that TNG should also be disregarded) is so bizarre that it hardly warrants discussion. TNG is canon. Accept it.

Yes it is too small to exhibit gravity of its own - yet it does, therefore it isnt normal.

Circular logic. You are being asked to justify your assumption that it has stronger gravity than is permitted by the laws of physics. You cannot justify this claim by simply stating it as fact. What do you base it on? Dialogue?

The crew did not quantify the strength of gravity; they only indicated that it could cause a navigational risk. If the passage is as tight as they say, and their equipment as sensitive as indicated elsewhere in TNG, it is entirely reasonable to suspect that they were concerned that some minor fluctuation could affect their sensors and make them hit the wall. There is no need to postulate that an ordinary-looking asteroid was constructed out of ultra-dense degenerate matter or some other such exotic material which would produce incredibly strong gravity for its size. Moreover, if it were such a material, the asteroid would have compacted itself into a sphere, rather than remaining a craggy rock formation (with giant gaping chasms in it, no less!) as we saw on screen.

The episode I speak of is Deja Q.

The diameter of the "Deja Q" asteroid is roughly 2.5km (see the screenshots on my Canon Database). This gives it one eighth of the volume of the Pegasus asteroid. So yes, the E-D could easily fragment that asteroid if they wanted to, given that it would take only 1/8 of their torpedo payload to do so. How does this support your bizarre assertion that "Deja Q" blows the Pegasus numbers out of the water?

As for the transmitter not being destroyed - we arent talking about the entire planet beijng affected at this point just 0.1% of it and as such its very possible that the transmitter isnt in the affected area.

Au contraire. Any explosion violent enough to vapourize 40 million square kilometres of crust to a depth of 1/2km would create massive seismic and atmospheric effects, not to mention enormous jets of superheated plasma shooting out of the atmosphere and rapidly heating the entire atmosphere to thousands of K. The fact that the transponder was unaffected indicates that none of the effects supposedly present were actually present (and I remind you once more that a plasma jet shooting out of the atmosphere would be VERY VISIBLE since it would be glowing like the Sun, yet we saw no such thing; a slightly lighter shade of brown is NOT what you will see from a superheated plasma jet).

Face it; the effects you describe will have serious and massive side-effects, none of which we saw. Those side-effects are caused by the intrinsic nature of matter, and are not technologically dependent. Therefore, we can conclude that we are not seeing what YOU think we are seeing.

{EDIT: in case you're curious about the funky chain reactions of phasers, which Darkstar is obviously trying to copy in his bizarre DS argument, see the related page on the main site. The arguments are not analogous, although I'm sure Darkstar would like to think that they are; phaser chain reactions DO exhibit the material-dependence characteristic of a typical chain reaction, not to mention extremely slow propagation in many cases, and the lack of a large observed thermodynamic state change precludes high power levels, unlike the situation with the DS where the enormous observed thermodynamic state change is precisely the problem for Darkstar's theory).

[Kamakazie Sith]

It has to be observed at this point that any claims for photon torpedoes being capable of megaton-range blast yields are directly contraindicated by the canon evidence of the movies and television episodes. One of the most direct examples derives straight from the movie Star Trek III: In Search Of Spock. Commander Kruge's Bird of Prey took a direct hit, while unshielded, from an Enterprise photorp and suffered only minor internal damage. The photorps fired from Gen. Chang's BOP in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country exhibit no greater power —particularly the one which hit the unshielded Enterprise and blew through the saucer section. In either case, the target ship should have vanished in a large nuclear fireball if the weapons in question had megaton-range yields.

Ref to TNG "Q Who" for your large fireball.

During the chase scene the E-D fires several torpedoes at the Borg Cube, when they hit the facing side of the borg cube is engulfed in a huge explosion.

[TheDarkling]

TNG is unofficial anyway.

To witch I responded

It is? YES may the DS9 Uber calcs/fleet numbers/planetary defense setup reign forever.

You can read right - I NEVER said anything about the TM, it was a light hearted comment that you misread and now you wont admit it which is rather sad (PS you started the debate based upon a strawman sicne I never said what you thnik I said - I have shown yuou the quote yet you refuse to accept it).

The viewscreen in the episode in question showed the Plasma weapon yet from outside it looked like a Klingno Photon torp (as I have already said).
Showing that what we saw oin the viescreen isnt what the weapon looks like from "outside".

Why did Kirk think it was a weakness - I dont know but thats the low end range, it doesnt fit in with the rest of Canon I agree but the fact is the range wasnt as small as other weapons we have seen (range wise).
Even if they were only at impulse (which they werent we see warp stars and the dialogue agrees) it still places the range 16 Million KM (assuming Impulse of 1/4c) still greater that what we usually see.

No Wong it isnt my new argument - I have shown Howedars coimment and my joking response - why cant you just admit you misread?

I have taken a look like at the NDF section (I thought you meant something other than NDF to be the funky chain reaction) now if the Phaser were many times more effective aganist rock why does the crew always go after asteroids with torps - they must be in the same effective range (unless the Pegasus asteriod was more dense, this still leaves the asteriod in Rise however).
I have no problem with NDF but the torps are still there (we dont see the effcets iof the torps impacts) so while the Disruptors are NDFing the crust away the torps which are still in the small ball park havent hit - thus we havent seen the destruction we would expect.
Now torps are just big bang weapons therefore they still show us an explosion above what would exepct.
I would also point out that as far as I know Cardassian beam weapons havent shown themselves to NDF (in fact we see one punch a sizeable hole in a startship) therefore their material dependancy isnt comfirmed.

The difference here is im trying to solve the mystery whereas you just say Disruptors are many times more effective than torps on the ground - this doesnt make sense since whyuse torps? we dont see what the torps do destruction wise, we do see some glowing from Disruptor impacts (indicating they have Heated up the crust and "destroyed" some of it), yet torps would still be in the same fire power range since they arent redundant - this fits with the other example of Plasma torp fire power (Mid GT) and fits with what else we see (or dont see).

I would ask that you read the quotes again and admit your were mistaken but since you refused to do it last tmie I provided them I doubt it.

[Darth Wong]

You can read right - I NEVER said anything about the TM, it was a light hearted comment that you misread and now you wont admit it which is rather sad (PS you started the debate based upon a strawman sicne I never said what you thnik I said - I have shown yuou the quote yet you refuse to accept it).

I have admitted that it is a light-hearted comment. However, I point out (yet again) that you have attempted to make many serious points in defense of it since then, so its genesis is irrelevant.

The viewscreen in the episode in question showed the Plasma weapon yet from outside it looked like a Klingno Photon torp (as I have already said). Showing that what we saw oin the viescreen isnt what the weapon looks like from "outside".

You can't figure out why something might look different head-on than it does from the side? This seems like an irreconcilable difference to you, thus requiring that we assume the viewscreen to be in error? Are you serious?

Why did Kirk think it was a weakness - I dont know but thats the low end range, it doesnt fit in with the rest of Canon I agree but the fact is the range wasnt as small as other weapons we have seen (range wise).

It is the low end range given a PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION of events. The range figure that you quote as canon fact was actually never spoken onscreen. You are confusing one of several possible interpretations of canon with the canon itself. Please stop doing that; it's dishonest and annoying.

Even if they were only at impulse (which they werent we see warp stars and the dialogue agrees) it still places the range 16 Million KM (assuming Impulse of 1/4c) still greater that what we usually see.

And why do you assume impulse of 1/4c? Nowhere in all of TOS did they say what impulse speed was. Yet again, I point out that combat ranges in "Elaan of Troyius", where THEY ACTUALLY CALLED OUT RANGE FIGURES. You can abuse other canon incidents in order to invent large figures if you like, but you ignore the only incident where they actually called out a usable range figure because it doesn't support your pre-ordained conclusions. Who do you think you're trying to fool? We're not a bunch of kids who will just lay down and accept this kind of intellectual skullduggery, you know.

No Wong it isnt my new argument - I have shown Howedars coimment and my joking response - why cant you just admit you misread?

Strawman. I acknowledged right up-front that you were not being entirely serious with your first comment. But you responded to my dig with a series of completely serious arguments. Your obsession with arguing over the origins of this debate is a pure red herring; it doesn't matter how or why you started defending the point; the fact is that you are seriously defending it now, and that's all that matters.

I have taken a look like at the NDF section (I thought you meant something other than NDF to be the funky chain reaction) now if the Phaser were many times more effective aganist rock why does the crew always go after asteroids with torps - they must be in the same effective range (unless the Pegasus asteriod was more dense, this still leaves the asteriod in Rise however).

Many asteroids contain significant amounts of iron. Next dumb question, please.

I have no problem with NDF but the torps are still there (we dont see the effcets iof the torps impacts) so while the Disruptors are NDFing the crust away the torps which are still in the small ball park havent hit - thus we havent seen the destruction we would expect.

Make up whatever excuses you like. The point is that we don't see serious destruction. What we see is many, many orders of magnitude below what we expect, and in fact, the observed effects are not even up to the level of an intense nuclear exchange using real-life megaton-class weapons.

Now torps are just big bang weapons therefore they still show us an explosion above what would exepct.

No, they show us a lack of explosions which we would expect. This means their "bang" is not as big as you would like it to be. And if they were so much more powerful than their beam weapons, they wouldn't bother with the beam weapons.

I would also point out that as far as I know Cardassian beam weapons havent shown themselves to NDF (in fact we see one punch a sizeable hole in a startship) therefore their material dependancy isnt comfirmed.

I don't know about Cardassian beam weapons; have we ever seen them make somebody vanish, like Feddie hand phasers do?

The difference here is im trying to solve the mystery whereas you just say Disruptors are many times more effective than torps on the ground - this doesnt make sense since why use torps?

Shockwave and seismic effects. If disruptors are like phasers, they won't produce any. Burrow the torps below-ground and detonate them in order to collapse buried structures deep in the crust. Maybe they were carrying special high-yield torps for this purpose. This would also explain the lack of visible effects in orbit, although it wouldn't do much good for your over-optimistic theory that they were going to blow the crust clean off the planet. You should look for theories which are realistic and make sense, not just theories which produce the most outrageous numbers.

we dont see what the torps do destruction wise, we do see some glowing from Disruptor impacts (indicating they have Heated up the crust and "destroyed" some of it), yet torps would still be in the same fire power range since they arent redundant - this fits with the other example of Plasma torp fire power (Mid GT) and fits with what else we see (or dont see).

A slightly lighter shade of brown is nowhere near the luminosity we would expect from weapons with anywhere near the firepower you imagine. We should see fireballs and plasma jets which should look like the SURFACE OF THE SUN, not just a slightly lighter shade of brown! How many times do I have to say this?

I would ask that you read the quotes again and admit your were mistaken but since you refused to do it last tmie I provided them I doubt it.

You're working entirely too hard to pretend that I'm being unreasonable. Anyone can look through this thread and see that I've never denied the facetious nature of your original comment. But you have chosen to seriously defend it since then, so your insistence on obsessing over its origins is a worthless red herring and a transparent attempt to change the subject.

[Patrick Degan]

Flames already? OK, punk, the gloves come off.

Why do people jump in the middle of a debate and make complete idiots out of themselves?

Not a question to be asked by somebody in the process of making a complete idiot of himself.

First the Romulan plasma torp looks very different than it does on the viewscreen (we see this when the Ent-Nil is attacked by Romulans in The Deadly Years)

That does not make it a photon torpedo, and we never see this weapon in use by the Romulans after TOS.

we see Cardy weapon implacements using Plasma torps and they look similar to Romulan torp weapons

No, we see standard photon torpedoes and disruptor bolts. At no point do Cardassian weapons resemble a billowing cloud of plasma.

we also know the Romulans still have Plasma torps

Something which is not seen in any canon episode of TNG or DS9, so again we know no such thing.

The range limitation was 64 Million KM LOW END

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

I dont see that as any reason to get rid of it and the ROF is approx once a minute during the Deadly Years (possibly lower powered blasts) - we also know that the current romulan Plasma torp doesnt display a ROF equal to Photon torps

You are babbling, sir. A weapon which has a very limited rate of fire and range, drains inordinates amounts of reactor power, and leaves the ship vulnerable to longer-ranged weapons constitutes three reasons to abandon its use in combat. If the Romulans were deliberately ratcheting down the output of their weapon to save power, then that is a sign that their generals recognised the horrid limitations of their weapon in the field. And again, we have no knowledge from the canon that the Romulans use plasma torpedoes in the TNG-era, and your simply saying they do ad-infinitum does not make it so, no matter how much you want it to.

No fool it is not immaterial

Yes it is, idiot.

if you had read the thread you would have found out I was comparing TNG to DS9 not TNG to TOS

Even more immaterial. TNG and DS9 shared the same set of creators and were contemporaneous to one another. What is canon in one is canon in the other and vice-versa.

the entire basis of my light hearted comment (that Wong has blown out of all proprotion and misinterpreted aswell since he misread what I originally said and simply jumped to a conclusion) was that TNG wasnt canon.

You said something to the effect that TOS weapons were more powerful. Something which, with the exception of the Romulan implosion-field plasma weapon (which is subsequently decomissioned by them by the time of "The Enterprise Incident"), is not in evidence, and in any case has no bearing on any discussion of current TNG-era starship weaponry.

Yes it is too small to exhibit gravity of its own - yet it does, therefore it isnt normal.

Is the Enterprise being pulled into a collision with the asteroid? Does it pull the ship into crashing into the cavern walls during the ship's passage to the wreckage of the Pegasus? In both cases, no. The ship hovers at rest within the cavern; a condition which would be impossible were the asteroid's mass exerting undue gravitational influence. The asteroid is not composed of ultradense materials (which would tend also to pull its material into a compact ball from extraordinary specific gravity) but ordinary rock. Your claims have no basis in fact.

As for the transmitter not being destroyed - we arent talking about the entire planet beijng affected at this point just 0.1% of it and as such its very possible that the transmitter isnt in the affected area.

Riiiiiight. There will be no seismic disturbances propagating out over hundreds or even thousands of kilometres from gigaton-level blasts occuring at one point on the planetary surface. There will be no pressure-wave displacement of the atmosphere generating winds at hundreds of kilometres per second sweeping over the surface. There will be no massive heat displacement and naturally no EMP burst as well.

Ladies and gentlemen —the very sad spectacle of somebody who gets his science education wholly from the Trek Technobabbolator™.

[Patrick Degan]

It has to be observed at this point that any claims for photon torpedoes being capable of megaton-range blast yields are directly contraindicated by the canon evidence of the movies and television episodes. One of the most direct examples derives straight from the movie Star Trek III: In Search Of Spock. Commander Kruge's Bird of Prey took a direct hit, while unshielded, from an Enterprise photorp and suffered only minor internal damage. The photorps fired from Gen. Chang's BOP in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country exhibit no greater power —particularly the one which hit the unshielded Enterprise and blew through the saucer section. In either case, the target ship should have vanished in a large nuclear fireball if the weapons in question had megaton-range yields.

Ref to TNG "Q Who" for your large fireball.

During the chase scene the E-D fires several torpedoes at the Borg Cube, when they hit the facing side of the borg cube is engulfed in a huge explosion.

Quite the opposite is demonstrated, KS. The blasts from the photorp explosions produce billowing clouds of superheated gas which disperse within a second. There are no large nuclear-event fireballs in evidence, nor do they burst forth with the radiance which would obscure our view of the cubeship's surface, nor is there any aftereffect upon the cubeship's deflector shields.

[TheDarkling]

I defended my off hand comment because you attacked it, you also used TNG evidence in following attacks (whihc was the entire point of the comment) thus using massive red herrings.

Thats sort of my point about Cardy weapons - im not sure they use NDF (I doint recall anyone getting Vaped by any energy weapon during DS9 only TOS and TNG).

Also you say the Plasma torp looks like a photon torp from the side and behind just not directly in front where it grows in size and changes colour, I dont agree with that however this still fits in with Cardy/Rom plasma torps of DS9 being the same as those from before.

If you also want to quibble over names prove that disruptors have the same NDF ability as their hand held cousin - the name doesnt mean anything according to you.

I see they said they were qat warp yet actually they were moving along at what speed? 250km/s (to keep the Torp in range of 30,000KM) seems like they are going slow - why go the require warp power for this - we have seen impulse speeds in excess of this before without requiring emergency warp power (the impulse theory also goes against what was said and the visual warp stars, this then gets worse when we now have to lower a whole lot of impulse speed examples).

As for the fact that many Asteriods contain iron - how many times more effective are phasers against rock in your estimation? a 100, 100, million, billion??? just a rough guess will do.

Now we have torps being useful and we have beam weapons also being of use therefore torps must be in the same damage class as phasers for rock yet Phasers are way out of there league against Iron - we see a Cardy beam weapons chew through a mirander in one shot, it doesnt seem like they are too material dependant.

So so far we have Torps that are approx that of phasers (on rock), at least one beam weapon with NDF unproven and an unknown NDF factor.

You still havent said what you think is going on all you are trying to do is render the incident void - while this is par for the course in Vs debating I would actually like to try and figure out what is going on.

If you post an answer or even cnostructive comment on what you think is happening in TDiC instead of being a destructive debator I will take a look other wise I see little point in continuing this.

[Darth Wong]

Ref to TNG "Q Who" for your large fireball.

During the chase scene the E-D fires several torpedoes at the Borg Cube, when they hit the facing side of the borg cube is engulfed in a huge explosion.

Quite the opposite is demonstrated, KS. The blasts from the photorp explosions produce billowing clouds of superheated gas which disperse within a second. There are no large nuclear-event fireballs in evidence, nor do they burst forth with the radiance which would obscure our view of the cubeship's surface, nor is there any aftereffect upon the cubeship's deflector shields.

I would also point out that there is no atmosphere in that situation, so the size of the explosion is caused by the scattering of luminescent debris from the torp itself, not by radiation/atmosphere/shockwave interactions as we would expect in an atmosphere. KS introduces a red herring with that comment (I didn't even think it was worth commenting on, to be honest, but I figured I might as well throw in my $.02 if someone else was going to mention it).

[TheDarkling]

Patrick Degan: My original remark that was attacked was that without TNG trek took an upswing thus ANY TNG examples used to refute calcs based on that comment are of no use - learn to read please since you are the second person so far to misread what I said (Wong thought I was talking about the TM - he denies it now but he stated that very fact two posts back but I understand he has to save face).

We do know that Plasma torps are still in use during DS9, the cardies have a weapons platofrm that fires them (Damar tells us this) and the Romulans also have Plasma torps still (they put some on bajouran moon) - please get your facts straight before calling me a liar.

Also the Romulan Plasma weapon simply wasnt in use on the Klingon retrofits they werent designed for it, yet we know Plasma torps are still in use.

You are falling into the same trap as Wong - TNG evidence is not valid since that was the entire point and I stated as much (this was the comment Wong attacked) yet you suddenly pull out TNG examples - doesnt that strike you as wrong, if not they im shokced.
You will however note that the Pegasus was pulled into the asteriod proving its gravity.

I also dont expect you to admit you are wrong when shown clear quotes so once agian unless you say something useful (not likely since you have added nothing to this"debate" unlike Wong who has at least put up some evidence if not shown an interest in discovering the truth) im leaving the thread.

[Darth Wong]

I defended my off hand comment because you attacked it, you also used TNG evidence in following attacks (whihc was the entire point of the comment) thus using massive red herrings.

Hardly. A red herring is an attempt to change the subject. Since you were not seriously debating, there was no subject to change. I actually set the subject, by starting a debate about firepower levels as they relate to TDiC, TOS, etc. By insisting that you were not attempting to start a debate at all, you negate the possibility of my comment being a red herring. Give it up; you're just making yourself look shifty.

Thats sort of my point about Cardy weapons - im not sure they use NDF (I doint recall anyone getting Vaped by any energy weapon during DS9 only TOS and TNG).

True, but that includes phasers, yet we know phasers can do that. Maybe Cardie disruptors aren't like Klingon disruptors, but while names aren't necessarily proof, they are enough to put the burden of proof on those who would claim the existence of a difference.

Also you say the Plasma torp looks like a photon torp from the side and behind just not directly in front where it grows in size and changes colour, I dont agree with that however this still fits in with Cardy/Rom plasma torps of DS9 being the same as those from before.

Hardly. We see fairly good front-shots of DS9 torps in lots of situations and they never look like billowing red clouds.

If you also want to quibble over names prove that disruptors have the same NDF ability as their hand held cousin - the name doesnt mean anything according to you.

Strawman. You can't divine the function of a device from a semantic analysis of its name, but if two devices have the same name, it is only reasonable to assume that they probably share basic operating principles. At the very least, the burden of proof is upon YOU to show that they don't.

I see they said they were qat warp yet actually they were moving along at what speed? 250km/s (to keep the Torp in range of 30,000KM) seems like they are going slow - why go the require warp power for this - we have seen impulse speeds in excess of this before without requiring emergency warp power (the impulse theory also goes against what was said and the visual warp stars, this then gets worse when we now have to lower a whole lot of impulse speed examples).

One half impulse power is not even 1 km/s in ST2. What's wrong with concluding that they needed to dump warp power into the impulse engines to do 250 km/s backwards? As for the "warp stars", that may be some kind of distortion created by the "mass-lightening field" employed by Feddie impulse engines. Even when they ARE travelling at warp, they shouldn't see that effect as shown.

As for the fact that many Asteriods contain iron - how many times more effective are phasers against rock in your estimation? a 100, 100, million, billion??? just a rough guess will do.

Since they can cause a hundred kg of rock and/or flesh to disappear but they produce only a scorch mark against thin-walled metal containers, many orders of magnitude seems like a bare minimum starting point.

Now we have torps being useful and we have beam weapons also being of use therefore torps must be in the same damage class as phasers for rock yet Phasers are way out of there league against Iron - we see a Cardy beam weapons chew through a mirander in one shot, it doesnt seem like they are too material dependant.

If you put enough power behind them, they can punch a hole through metal even without the NDF bonus. How does that change anything? Need I remind you that these weapons were unusually powerful for AQ weapons?

So so far we have Torps that are approx that of phasers (on rock), at least one beam weapon with NDF unproven and an unknown NDF factor.

Based on your various sets of assumptions, deliberate selections of preferred interpretations, and decision to ignore such items as the only canon example of a range figure being stated aloud.

You still havent said what you think is going on all you are trying to do is render the incident void - while this is par for the course in Vs debating I would actually like to try and figure out what is going on.

I actually said precisely what I thought was going in my last post. Read it again before you spout this asinine bullshit again. I don't like having some asshole tell me that I didn't say something when I did.

If you post an answer or even cnostructive comment on what you think is happening in TDiC instead of being a destructive debator I will take a look other wise I see little point in continuing this.

Looking for an escape route?

[His Divine Shadow]

Yo dumbass, do you know the difference between energy and power?

Hint: Joule = energy, Watt = power

Learn some fucking physics before spouting this bullshit.

Please go to the desk and take a valium please, you make warsies look bad.

[Patrick Degan]

Patrick Degan: My original remark that was attacked was that without TNG trek took an upswing thus ANY TNG examples used to refute calcs based on that comment are of no use - learn to read please since you are the second person so far to misread what I said (Wong thought I was talking about the TM - he denies it now but he stated that very fact two posts back but I understand he has to save face).

Sadly, your attempt at a point requires us to compare and contrast weapons in the two eras of the Federation galaxy, and the evidence from both eras utterly belies any of your claims in this or any other respect. Whatever Darth Wong may have "misread" (doubtful) has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And somebody who evidently can't interpret with any degree of accuracy the things seen on a television or movie screen is in no position to be giving anybody advice about learning to read.

We do know that Plasma torps are still in use during DS9, the cardies have a weapons platofrm that fires them (Damar tells us this) and the Romulans also have Plasma torps still (they put some on bajouran moon) - please get your facts straight before calling me a liar.

Simply because you keep saying so over and over and over and over again? It is the canon visual evidence which calls you a liar, sir, not myself. We see nothing in DS9 which exhibits the characteristics of the Romulan weapon from "Balance Of Terror".

Also the Romulan Plasma weapon simply wasnt in use on the Klingon retrofits they werent designed for it, yet we know Plasma torps are still in use.

Assertions without evidence have no validity.

You are falling into the same trap as Wong - TNG evidence is not valid since that was the entire point and I stated as much (this was the comment Wong attacked) yet you suddenly pull out TNG examples - doesnt that strike you as wrong, if not they im shokced.

TNG evidence is valid since it is canon. Deal with it.

You will however note that the Pegasus was pulled into the asteriod proving its gravity.

According to the episode, the phase-cloaked Pegasus drifted through the asteroid's mass, then the cloak failed and the ship rematerialised with half of it still within the mass of the asteroid itself. The later phase-cloaked Enterprise is unaffected by the asteroid's infinitessmal gravity.

I also dont expect you to admit you are wrong when shown clear quotes so once agian unless you say something useful (not likely since you have added nothing to this"debate" unlike Wong who has at least put up some evidence if not shown an interest in discovering the truth) im leaving the thread.

Ah, this is what that thin, tinny, insect-like whine from "Wink Of An Eye" must sound like slowed down to normal time-based tracking.

[Solid Snake]

Oh, i forgot about the whole 5.1 MW phaser thing. Suddenly, 200MW guns on B5 dont look so small, do they?

[Australopithicus]

Uhh...yes it does. Mike Wong has pointed out that each of the 200 phaser sections put out 5.1 MW of power and if you multiply them together then you magically get 1020 MW, or 1.020 GW. Hmm...Poor B5...

[His Divine Shadow]

The actual power rating of phasers are irrelevant since they are not DET weapons, so the point is moot, determing their general efficency against targets is prefferable

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, the 200MW weapons are quite likely small weapons, we've determined atleast KT(9-50KT/sec) level firepower from Omega Destroyers

[Isolder74]

In the TNG episode 'The survivors', when Kevin Uxbridge created the first Husnock warship illusion, it strikes with 40 MW of particle energy. Worf claims there to be 'no damage', and Riker states that 'If that's the best they can do, this will only last 5 minutes'. All round, the crew is genuinely unimpressed with this display of firepower.

Therefore, the particle ship weapons of TNG must be much stronger than the 5.1 MW that the TNG manual states. If the Enterprise can only dish out 5.1 MW of particle energy, then they shouldn't be so unimpressed with the Husnocks' 40 MW of particle energy. Therefore, I would go for an estimate of at least 204 MW of energy (5.1 x 40) and the high end of the estimate rests with whether the 2nd illusion kicked out 400 GW or 400 MW of particle energy, because I frankly can't remember. If 400 MW, there's something seriously wrong with TNG shields, if 400 GW (As the DITL professes, but I don't think that's actually what Worf said - my defective memory... ) then the shields or the hull are much more powerful than we thought.

Thoughts, comments, information anyone?

Iet was 400 GWatts of partical energy. BTW I'm not sure if the Husnock ship was simply an illusion.