Katana Fleet

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-09-24 04:07pm

Why is this fleet a legend? Twas only 200 dreadnoughts.
Who really would have missed them? Compared to the millions of acclaimators VSDs and other ships the republic would have had.
Is there an in-universe explanation or to we simply blame EU minmalisim
and forget about it?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-24 04:17pm

Generally speaking, "legends" don't focus on hundreds of thousands of persons/items, but a small few that have in some way made their mark in history.

The Katana Fleet itself was unremarkable; probably a small part of a larger battle group. What made it famous was its mysterious dissapearance. Sure, 200 ships isn't a big number, but you gotta wonder: where'd they all go? Plus, 200 ships may be chump change to a galactic government, but to pirates, smuggles and other galactic outlaws it was a gold mine. Hell, even galactic goverments would wet themselves if a pirate had enough firepower to slag a planet a dozen times over.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-24 05:30pm

Come on, let's just call a spade a spade here okay? It's no secret that Zhan wove a Star Wars galaxy of a handful of ships in the Thrawn trilogy (along with several others of the early EU writers) and that he expected 200 Dreadnaughts to actually make a big differance in his campaign against the New Republic.

Later Zhan realized his mistake and tried to backpeddle a little with his last two Star Wars books. I know that one CAN make a case that Zhan only concentrated on a small group of ships but if you read the way the books are written, its obvious that he was describing a much smaller starfleet for both the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic. It's an error and the Katana Fleets imprtance is just an extention of that error.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2003-09-24 06:03pm

The Kernel wrote:Come on, let's just call a spade a spade here okay? It's no secret that Zhan wove a Star Wars galaxy of a handful of ships in the Thrawn trilogy (along with several others of the early EU writers) and that he expected 200 Dreadnaughts to actually make a big differance in his campaign against the New Republic.

Later Zhan realized his mistake and tried to backpeddle a little with his last two Star Wars books. I know that one CAN make a case that Zhan only concentrated on a small group of ships but if you read the way the books are written, its obvious that he was describing a much smaller starfleet for both the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic. It's an error and the Katana Fleets imprtance is just an extention of that error.

So, we just see what we can do to correct it for him, neh?

Alrighty, then.

The uniqueness idea is definitely good. I mean, we're talking about a fabled group, kind of like that flight of torpedo bombers lost in the Bermuda Triangle (at least before they found the wreckage of one of them a few years back) on a grand scale. Finding them, as Pelleon showed, was a common dream among kids in the SW universe. So, finding said group would be big.

Secondly, their slave-rigging had some attractive bonuses to whomever could find them:

1. for non-government buyers (whether good or evil), being able to crew a much larger ship than you normally good vastly increases your available firepower... a very attractive option.

2. for government buyers, particularly a splintered Empire (dealing with renegade factions as well as the New Republic) and a nascent and fledging New Republic (trying to create a brand-new government, including the very expensive bureaucracy, as well as attracting new member planets, both of which will put strain on your shipbuilding capacities), finding 200 decent-sized starships that don't need as many crewmen as 200 newly-built starships of the same class not only means you have 200 new starships to add to your fleets, but you can get them fully crewed and operational more quickly. Sure, the Empire had thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of ships... but those ships were probably under more strain after the Rebellion won than before, and that was after the morale-deflating defeat at Endor. As for the Republic... we saw how big the Rebellion's full fleet was in RotJ (or at least 90-95% of it). Even with taking over some planets from the Empire, they wouldn't have immediately had that many ships built by the time of those novels. And even then, having 200 Dreadnaughts as a mobile strike force would have been difficult for most Imperial planets or task forces to take on. The Katana fleet's strategic impact, while measurable, would not be as significant as its tactical impact.

And, from the monetary perspective... aside from the costs for paying your crew and maintaining the starships and equipment needed to get the ships back to port and refurbished for resale, you're talking about 200 ships with very little cost basis in them (just as a wild guess, I'd say maybe 5 to 10% of the list price of a used Dreadnaught). Even if you sell them for half price, then, you're going to recoup quite a bit of income from them. And since you would want to keep people from being suspicious, you'd sell them in small lots, and keep the discount off the going rate for normal Dreadnaughts very small (5-10%). That gives you a profit margin of 80-90% (call it 80%, to account for disguising its origin) per Katana Dreadnaught. I don't know how much a Dreadnaught would cost, obviously. But in ANH, Luke thought paying 15,000-20,000 for a trip on a tramp freighter was highway robbery because you could "almost buy a ship for that much" -- the assumption being a ship like the Falcon. A large ship like a Dreadnaught would almost certainly run towards the hundreds of millions of credits, possibly even billions of credits. That puts the profit at hundreds of millions, or maybe even a few billion, credits per ship. That's a lot of money.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-24 07:56pm

The Katana fleet was important the way all of Thrawn's house-of-cards edges were.

C'boath: Overrated, if the twins were guarded by Luke and Kyle Katarn constantly, the NRI given a real job, and a spare SD or Star Cruiser kept on hand, you find out where he is, then you slag it.

It was the idea of another Jedi Master gone bad that had enormous psychological affect on the weary Republican veterans--they haven't forgotten Jerec and his Dark Jedi, nor Darth Vader, nor the Emperor. That and a unique source of tactical communications was his only importance.

Spaarti Cloning Facility: Several tens of thousands of clone cylinders (IIRC). Trivial in a galactic war; given 90,000 cylinders (does anyone have the exact figure of cylinders?), and seven days per clone, with the facility operational for say...nine Earth months at about 30 days a month...
is only around 385,000 clones. The Empire, even at this phase, must have trillions of combat personnel. It is the psychological impact at Thrawn's spearheads and key assaults by allowing the NR to face scores of elite pilots at once, and to know about the clones which reinforces Thrawn's myth of infalliability, and the elite squads and elite leaders mixed in with standard troops that gives Thrawn just a little greater edge in each battle to win.

Thrawn's Superiority Fleet and Chimaera: Impressive, but compared to vast armadas of Imperial might such as the Sector Group destroyer compliment at Endor and Admiral Giel's flagship and armada, is insignificant. Thrawn fights the right battles and wins in just the right way to have the maximum political, diplomatic, and psychological impact, while avoiding confrontation with overwhelming Republican might or Ackbar's fleet. Thrawn places the focus on his fleet and their victories, thus projecting the victory and tactical brilliance as brilliant strategy and victory for the Empire as a whole, while his subordinate admirals fight their own battles with their own fleets.

The Katana fleet was simply considered almost hallowed. Its legendary status and upgrades make it feared. (While the standard Dreadnought is arguably a crew-intensive status symbol and commandship for picket fleets, while acting as a frigate or picket ship for KDY-scale armadas, the Dark Force's Dreadnoughts have few crew and likely far more simplified logistics and more room for weapons, engines, shields, etc. The Katana's fleets ships may have warmaking capacity far out of proportion for their size, not to mention a working model of the sophisticated slave-rigging systems to make more efficient, less crew-intensive, and possibly AI-controlled warships is also a key prize). The Katana fleet, used to bolster spearheads and attacking fleets just like the relatively few clones can add the psychological and qualitiative edge to allow the Imperials to win the confrontations.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-24 08:32pm

You think the Katana Fleet and the clone armies were supposed to be psychological? Thrawn used them in nearly every campaign in The Last Command and the clones even showed up in place they didn't know the New Republic would be at (Katana Fleet skirmish).

Remember what Han Solo said in Dark Force Rising to Lando? "How do you prepare to get hit with 200 Dreadnaughts?" That doesn't sound like a purely psychological effect to me.

Also, Lando mentioned in the same book that he doubted that the Empire could crew 200 Dreadnaughts, even if they found them. They only need 400,000 troops and Lando figured it would take months or even years to pull that many officers and crew together. Doesn't sound like 385,000 clones are useless to me...

I'm not trying to spoil your fun or to come up with some bullshit Trekkie defense here about a small empire. This just proves to me why I like to be selective in what I believe from the EU. Zhan was a brilliant writer, but he never did get his head around the fact that the Empire was so darn MASSIVE.

Btw, C'Boath DID have his uses. The attack on Ukio proved that splendidly.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-09-24 08:36pm

Crewing those 200 ships is easy. you take the crews of 12 normal Dreadnaughts, for a net gain of 188, even presuming the reduced crew and provisions don't increase combat potential.

On the scale of the galaxy, they were almost purely psychological. 1/8 of a Sector fleet only matters in that you didn't have to weaken other holdings to get them.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-24 09:01pm

The Kernel wrote:I'm not trying to spoil your fun or to come up with some bullshit Trekkie defense here about a small empire. This just proves to me why I like to be selective in what I believe from the EU. Zhan was a brilliant writer, but he never did get his head around the fact that the Empire was so darn MASSIVE.

Which is exactly why Thrawn's little gimmicks must be interpreted at psyops or aces-in-hole, not massive strategic advantages, because otherwise the TTT makes no sense. Its called suspension of disbelief, and requires us to make all official evidence not directly contradicted by canon reinterpreted to make sense in terms of the whole and the canon's intent.

Its exactly why Wong assumes that often, Trekkie crews don't know what they're talking about or are incompetant, otherwise suspension of disbelief collapses under the weight of the imaginary universe's own unresolved self-inconsistency.

Under a half-million clones CANNOT be an enormous massive strategic advantage in the movie's Empire. Likewise with 200 puny old frigates. Even the Prequel EU assumes the 1.2 million Kaminoan clones are just special-ops and fire brigades that ward off key Seperatist assaults, and also take place in an era where no one has a real army or navy for pan-galactic civil war. In the post-ROTJ era, with everyone militarized, that many clones will be even more insignificant than they would've been in the Prequel Era.

And as for C'boath, he was useless except for coordinating clones, and the reason they threw clones at the dreadnoughts was to supply him with ships C'boath could manipulate--which fullfills the "tactical edge" explanation.

Do you have an alternate hypothesis or are you going to jabber "it doesn't make sense, except it" and thus prove you don't understand suspension of disbelief at all?

EDIT:

"I like to be selective about what I believe from the EU"

You're not Lucasfilm Limited or George Lucas, and thusly that doesn't matter two shits.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-09-24 10:09pm

There is another way to explain it as well.

What if the balance of power in terms of ships was near equal? 200 new ships suddenly ready to go, full manned and operated, would suddenly be a huge advantage. It would give you that extra edge.

I mean, face it, which is going to win a fight more effectively?

300 Star Destroyers vs 300 Star Destroyers
or
300 Star Destroyers vs 300 Star Destroyers and 50 Dreadnaughts?

That little edge in firepower adds up very quickly if used right. The Republic fleet just lost 300 ships, and because they had to split up there firepower among more targets, the the Empire didn't lose any (they just lost shields)

And that would be the psychological impact as well.

Thrawn was doing it by small numbers, but achieving such bloody huge victories because of it.

Either that, or
[Non-Canon fix]
the Katana fleet was much bigger then the Old Republic let on. Instead of 200 ships, what about 200 SQUADS of ships? That would be 2400 ships, or about 10% of the Imperial fleet worth of Star Destroyers. That would explain the problem too. Suddenly, the Imperial fleet just got a huge infusion of firepower. (A 10% jump in firepower over the course of a month, that was almost free is nothing to sneeze at)

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-09-24 10:13pm

unfortunately, the books explicitly say its 200 ships, not squadroens.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-24 11:11pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And as for C'boath, he was useless except for coordinating clones, and the reason they threw clones at the dreadnoughts was to supply him with ships C'boath could manipulate--which fullfills the "tactical edge" explanation.

C'Baoth was quite the double edged sword. He helped topple Ukio and Woostri by making the illusion of planetary shield piercing lasers, and so many systems surrendered without a fight.

On the other hand, Thrawn was boneheaded enough to give C'Baoth an entire ship full of stormtroopers and no ysalimiri to go to Wayland. Had it not been for Luke and Mara killing him first the cloned troops would've turned on Thrawn and made C'Baoth the head of the Empire.

EDIT: In LC it does say exactly how many cloning cylinders Thrawn has, but I'm not up to searching through 350 pages of text to find it right now. Maybe later.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-24 11:14pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Spaarti Cloning Facility: Several tens of thousands of clone cylinders (IIRC). Trivial in a galactic war; given 90,000 cylinders (does anyone have the exact figure of cylinders?), and seven days per clone, with the facility operational for say...nine Earth months at about 30 days a month...
is only around 385,000 clones.

Huh? Nine months at 30 days per months is 270 days. Dividing that down by seven days per clone, we get 38 full cycles. Multiplying by 90,000 cylinders, it comes out to 3,420,000 clones, not 385,000.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-25 03:01am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
"I like to be selective about what I believe from the EU"

You're not Lucasfilm Limited or George Lucas, and thusly that doesn't matter two shits.

Ahhh, but Lucas isn't here is he? I'm not using my own beliefs to try to win a vs. debate, I simply use it so that I can get a clearer picture of the Star Wars universe in my head. Therefore it is perfectly valid. I'm not suggesting that you have to do as I do now am I?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-09-25 03:11am

The Dark wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Spaarti Cloning Facility: Several tens of thousands of clone cylinders (IIRC). Trivial in a galactic war; given 90,000 cylinders (does anyone have the exact figure of cylinders?), and seven days per clone, with the facility operational for say...nine Earth months at about 30 days a month...
is only around 385,000 clones.
Huh? Nine months at 30 days per months is 270 days. Dividing that down by seven days per clone, we get 38 full cycles. Multiplying by 90,000 cylinders, it comes out to 3,420,000 clones, not 385,000.

SW weeks and months are not the same as ours. A standard week is five days, while a standard month is seven weeks.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-25 04:08am

Okay, 9x35/7 x 90,000 = 45 x 90,000 = 4,050,000 clones, so it's nearly 600,000 clones more, and over ten times as much as the 385,000 figure, but still not a great number on a galactic scale.

Edi

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-09-25 05:27am

I do not know, whether it is important, but the third draft of the script of TPM writes: 'PAN DOWN to reveal a small space cruiser heading TOWARD CAMERA at great speed. PAN with the cruiser as it heads toward the beautiful green planet of Naboo, which is surrounded by hundreds of Trade Federation battleships.'
Lando said that the Katana fleet was the last demonstration of the Republic to create an invincible fleet. And since he did some research on the Katana fleet, I trust him.
200 Dreadnoughts would not be an invincible fleet if the TF could mobilize hundreds of their battleships at around that time. So, it is only EU minimalism, and I recommend to enlarge the size of the Katana fleet.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-09-25 08:38am

For a single fleet 200 warship in a group is quite big. Not to mention the other couple of hundreds supportive crafts which usually escort/supply them.

The Katana Fleet was not the only fleet of the Old Republic, as we all know it. After approx. 30 years of technological advancement - in the period of the Thrawn Trilogy- this fleet doesn't seem so invincible but in the golden age of the Dreadnoughts it was a considerable opposition for anyone.

As for the number of clones...

It's mentioned on the Behind the Scene CD - not the highest proof, I know - that the Allience had 1.5 million of troops scattered across the galaxy. I know they used a total different strategy than the Empire under the leadership of Thrawn, still it shows how much can be done by so few.

@Vakundok:

The Trade Federation had maybe thousands of ships since they were trading between star systems.

They didn't built warships although, rather they modificated their trade ships into warships. That's not the same. The Dreadnoughts were built to be warships and as I said before the Katana Fleet was just one fleet of the Old Republic.
As I remember those TF ships had only quad-lasers and lacked TLs at all.
Dreadnoughts on the other hand have TL batteries.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-25 08:43am

Another reason they could have been vital is the slave link. It's possible that it represented something that had not been developed since (for various political or economic reasons). If either or both sides were more capable of building ships than manning them, it would make the secrets of the Katana Fleet's slave link very desirable (as long as you can keep the small crew away from plagues).

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-09-25 11:21am

The Titanic is still a legend, despite the fact that countless other ships and liners have been sunk travelling the Atlantic route.

The historical value of the ships, the romantic aspect of the task force disappearence(the entire crew goes starking mad, disappears into space.), all served to enhance the legendary aspects of the Katanna Task Force.

Their value to the Empire or the Republic is probably measured in the oppurtinity gained/lost. Neither Thrawn Empire, nor the Republic have the neccesary finanicial resources to contemplate acquiring vessels, at essentially no cost.
It is similar to how other governments have purchased obselete fighters from America Arizona junkyard, at extremely low cost. For example, the UH-1, an American utility helicopter, had been purchased for the extremely low cost of 1 US dollar.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-09-25 11:28am

The Kernel wrote: Remember what Han Solo said in Dark Force Rising to Lando? "How do you prepare to get hit with 200 Dreadnaughts?" That doesn't sound like a purely psychological effect to me.

Also, Lando mentioned in the same book that he doubted that the Empire could crew 200 Dreadnaughts, even if they found them. They only need 400,000 troops and Lando figured it would take months or even years to pull that many officers and crew together. Doesn't sound like 385,000 clones are useless to me...

I'm not trying to spoil your fun or to come up with some bullshit Trekkie defense here about a small empire. This just proves to me why I like to be selective in what I believe from the EU. Zhan was a brilliant writer, but he never did get his head around the fact that the Empire was so darn MASSIVE.

And just before the quote, Han says the Republic is already stretched as it is. A interplanetary government, with a defence force that is scattered throughout its territory to defend its territory, will be hard-pressed to group together additional assets to combat an additional boost in the Empire power projection capabilities.

As for the Empire crewing the Dreadnoughts, that's not implausible. It does take months before one can outfit a ship with a crew that proficient in running a ship.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-09-25 11:44am

The katana fleet was a legend because it was the largest fleet in the days of the old Republic. This time, the OR had way smaller fleets, the numbers of 10.000 ships became popular like 5 years after the Emperor killed the senate and elected himself.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 03:28pm

The Dark wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Spaarti Cloning Facility: Several tens of thousands of clone cylinders (IIRC). Trivial in a galactic war; given 90,000 cylinders (does anyone have the exact figure of cylinders?), and seven days per clone, with the facility operational for say...nine Earth months at about 30 days a month...
is only around 385,000 clones.
Huh? Nine months at 30 days per months is 270 days. Dividing that down by seven days per clone, we get 38 full cycles. Multiplying by 90,000 cylinders, it comes out to 3,420,000 clones, not 385,000.

Argh, you're right. I made a careless error.

Still, that's pretty insignificant on the galactic scale: much less than a thousandth of the Empire's combat troops.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-09-25 03:33pm

It is true, that combat veterans, especially the most experienced ones, have an impact all out of proportion to their numbers. There may only be a dozen of the best fighter pilots at a given engagement, but the simple confidence that would give to the people with them flying on their side can have a great effect. Remember that veterans tend to do most of the killing, and survive far longer than most new recruits(most of which tend to die in their first real engagement).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 03:41pm

Mara Jade estimates no less than twenty thousand Spaarti cylinders. (I have an arrangement pattern and such and if anyone would like to estimate the volume of a mountain like Tantiss and could figure something more exact, that would be neat). Twenty days per clone.

So...

20,000 clones / 20 days x 5 days / 1 week x 7 weeks / 1 month x 6 months = 210,000 clones.

Any better estimates for how long the campiagn was from the time Thrawn found Wayland and likely activated it to when it was shutdown by Luke, Mara, and co.?

EDIT:

[i]The Last Command[/i] by Timothy Zahn, pg. 179 wrote:"How complete was it?"

"Very," Mara said with a shiver. "It had a complete nutrient delivery system in place, plus a flash-teaching setup for personality imprinting and tech training on the clones while they developed."

"How many cylinders were there?"

Mara shook her head. "I don't know for sure. It was arranged in concentric tiers, sort of like a sport arena, and it filled the whole cavern."

"Were there a thousand cylinders?" Organa Solo persisted. "Two thousand? Ten?"

"I'd say at least twenty thousand," Mara told her. "Maybe more."

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 04:13pm

One thing to keep in mind with Thrawn's Empire is that it's no longer the Movie's Empire. It's been savaged by five years of infighting and backstabbing by the Warlords and it seems that the Palpatine-clone siphoned off a lot of the heavy warships.

He's only supposed to control a quarter of the old Empire. Even if he controlled a quarter of the military which is doubtful, out of 25,000 ISDs that leaves 6250. Spread those over a quarter million worlds and things get awfully thin, awfully fast. You get a quarter of an ISD per inhabitated system.

It's not minimalism to say that the shattered remains of the Empire were hard pressed and that the addition of 200 more or less ready to go warships free of any commitment are going to tip the scales. They might not be the best out there but they will have an effect. And Thrawn used them to maximum advantage.

____________________________________________________________

As for the clones, no matter their number the fact that they are the best of the best matter a whole hell of a lot. Soontir Fel racked up hundreds, if not thousands of kills. Suddenly adding a few thousand copies is going to do wonders for morale, training, and leadership.

The same with ground troopers. If you have a few thousand copies of Covell (who was Veer's protege and a damn fine general in his own right) as leaders you'll get the same huge boost.

Repeat for the navy and any other forces you have.

The sheer effect of being able to selectively reproduce the very best of your veterans is going to have a huge effect. It suddenly removes all sorts of training and leaderships problems as well as allowing you to place your very best at the tip of the spear. They'd have an effect out of proportion to simple numbers.