Katana Fleet

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 04:19pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mara Jade estimates no less than twenty thousand Spaarti cylinders. (I have an arrangement pattern and such and if anyone would like to estimate the volume of a mountain like Tantiss and could figure something more exact, that would be neat). Twenty days per clone.

I wonder how close Mara's estimate is. Even a small mountain is going to be substantially larger than is implied in her statement. I'm not going to stretch her wording too far but even a small stadium to seat twenty thousand could easily be lost in a mountain sized volume. A hundred thousand wouldn't be unreasonable.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 04:26pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Mara Jade estimates no less than twenty thousand Spaarti cylinders. (I have an arrangement pattern and such and if anyone would like to estimate the volume of a mountain like Tantiss and could figure something more exact, that would be neat). Twenty days per clone.
I wonder how close Mara's estimate is. Even a small mountain is going to be substantially larger than is implied in her statement. I'm not going to stretch her wording too far but even a small stadium to seat twenty thousand could easily be lost in a mountain sized volume. A hundred thousand wouldn't be unreasonable.

Perhaps. But that still only knocks the number up to about one million.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 04:42pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I wonder how close Mara's estimate is. Even a small mountain is going to be substantially larger than is implied in her statement. I'm not going to stretch her wording too far but even a small stadium to seat twenty thousand could easily be lost in a mountain sized volume. A hundred thousand wouldn't be unreasonable.
Perhaps. But that still only knocks the number up to about one million.

Assuming only a highly conservative 100,000 tanks. If any significant volume of Tantiss is given over to the Clone tank could easily outstrip that number by many times.

The sheer proliferation of the clones suggests that a lot more than a million got produced.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 04:46pm

Stormbringer wrote:Assuming only a highly conservative 100,000 tanks. If any significant volume of Tantiss is given over to the Clone tank could easily outstrip that number by many times.

The sheer proliferation of the clones suggests that a lot more than a million got produced.

Proof? They were deployed by Thrawn's personal fleet and at another engagement. They were used to crew the Dreadnoughts, which had slave-rigging made to allow them to need little crew.

1.2 million seem to get around and serve in the Republic war-effort during the Clone Wars--and if they were so freaked out about this becoming a new set of Clone Wars, I doubt Thrawn had at his disposal many times more than the Republic's clone compliment for at least half of the Clone Wars.

And you still need a good reason to toss Mara's estimate threw the window.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 04:59pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Proof? They were deployed by Thrawn's personal fleet and at another engagement. They were used to crew the Dreadnoughts, which had slave-rigging made to allow them to need little crew.

They were deployed to relatively minor worlds, placed in sleeper cells, and used for second rate duties. As well as Thrawn taking the time to run any number of experimental programs. That suggest either incredibly narrrow conflict or a lot more clones that a mere drop in the bucket.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:1.2 million seem to get around and serve in the Republic war-effort during the Clone Wars--and if they were so freaked out about this becoming a new set of Clone Wars, I doubt Thrawn had at his disposal many times more than the Republic's clone compliment for at least half of the Clone Wars.

And you still need a good reason to toss Mara's estimate threw the window.

But keep in mind that the Clone Wars as described in the book are very different than what we've seen so far. At most we've seen one army yet they talk about whole militaries composed of them. Whether that happened or not is up in the air. They're talking about a conflict far wider in scope than Geonosis.

And when it comes down to it, Mara's estimate is just that. An estimate based on single visit. The sheer disparity between her estimate and the space inside a mountain suggest the capacity is much greater than her estimate. Tantiss is supposedly mostly clone lab after all.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 05:07pm

Stormbringer wrote:They were deployed to relatively minor worlds, placed in sleeper cells, and used for second rate duties. As well as Thrawn taking the time to run any number of experimental programs. That suggest either incredibly narrrow conflict or a lot more clones that a mere drop in the bucket.

So they focused on the clones...so what? This whole trilogy acts like Thrawn's piddly 6 Star Destroyers are the main armada of the Empire. One expects it to narrowly focus. And none of that overrides hard numbers, which is 20,000. If you want to assume something like 100,000 plus, you better have a good reason for assuming Mara's delusional.

Stormbringer wrote:But keep in mind that the Clone Wars as described in the book are very different than what we've seen so far. At most we've seen one army yet they talk about whole militaries composed of them. Whether that happened or not is up in the air. They're talking about a conflict far wider in scope than Geonosis.

Irrelevent. Shatterpoint is well into the war (9 months IIRC), and we still have 1.2 million clones. That's the Clone Wars thus far, and Suspension of Disbelief says that the same as the Clone Wars in the TTT.

Stormbringer wrote:And when it comes down to it, Mara's estimate is just that. An estimate based on single visit. The sheer disparity between her estimate and the space inside a mountain suggest the capacity is much greater than her estimate. Tantiss is supposedly mostly clone lab after all.

You can't totally or even mostly hollow-out a mountain and expect it to still remain low-profile or structurally sound in its natural shape.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 05:18pm

So they focused on the clones...so what? This whole trilogy acts like Thrawn's piddly 6 Star Destroyers are the main armada of the Empire. One expects it to narrowly focus. And none of that overrides hard numbers, which is 20,000. If you want to assume something like 100,000 plus, you better have a good reason for assuming Mara's delusional.

The number is by no means hard since it's only her estimate based on an old visit.

And you're confusing the focus with of the story with the facts. Even out of an estimated 6250 thousands ISDs that's a handful. Zahn doesn't have such a bad grasp on the scale so much as there is a lot of homefront to protect and limited forces with which to strike.

The fact that elite clone Stormtroopers were being sent on all sort of missions and other elite clones were even settled as sleeper colonies suggests that the product was more than the mere handful.

Irrelevent. Shatterpoint is well into the war (9 months IIRC), and we still have 1.2 million clones. That's the Clone Wars thus far, and Suspension of Disbelief says that the same as the Clone Wars in the TTT.

Of course. But it also implies that it got worse, much worse later on. Or at least the after the fact proganda made it out to be much worse. Either way both sides expected a war of far greater scope than what we've seen out of the Clone Wars so far.

The fact that Thrawn was apparently prepared to fight something like that with his clone military suggests he's got more than the handful of the low estimate.

You can't totally or even mostly hollow-out a mountain and expect it to still remain low-profile or structurally sound in its natural shape.

All of which depends on the reinforcement provided. Kilometer high skyscrapers are common all over the galaxy so it's within their capability to hollow out a significant chunk of the mountain.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 05:35pm

Stormbringer wrote:All of which depends on the reinforcement provided. Kilometer high skyscrapers are common all over the galaxy so it's within their capability to hollow out a significant chunk of the mountain.

The more excavation, the less low-profile a facility like Tantiss will be, and its supposed to be pretty "black."

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-25 06:51pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:All of which depends on the reinforcement provided. Kilometer high skyscrapers are common all over the galaxy so it's within their capability to hollow out a significant chunk of the mountain.
The more excavation, the less low-profile a facility like Tantiss will be, and its supposed to be pretty "black."

You have absolutely no idea how big Mt. Tantiss is. It could be bigger than Olympas Mons on Mars or smaller than Mt. Shasta. Thus, no helpful conclusions from your line of thought can be drawn.

It is important to note that of all the unknown planets in the galaxy, Palpatine chose Wayland. Why he did so is unknown, but might it have something to do with the fact that Mt. Tantiss was the perfect spot for his clone warehouse? Just a thought.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 08:27pm

The Kernel wrote:You have absolutely no idea how big Mt. Tantiss is. It could be bigger than Olympas Mons on Mars or smaller than Mt. Shasta. Thus, no helpful conclusions from your line of thought can be drawn.

The facility blew-up without destroying the settlement at its foot. Thusly the facility did not occupy all of a very large mountain. It was not the catastrophic detonation of a region-dominating physical structure with that little collateral damage. And you'll still have to do better to wish away Mara's estimate. It can't be totally delusional. Not to mention the EGTPM depicts Mount Tantiss as a modest peak.

The Kernel wrote:It is important to note that of all the unknown planets in the galaxy, Palpatine chose Wayland. Why he did so is unknown, but might it have something to do with the fact that Mt. Tantiss was the perfect spot for his clone warehouse? Just a thought.

The cloning facility was already located there, he just took it over. It was built during the Clone Wars, and what's "the perfect spot" really mean?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-09-25 08:39pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
The Kernel wrote:It is important to note that of all the unknown planets in the galaxy, Palpatine chose Wayland. Why he did so is unknown, but might it have something to do with the fact that Mt. Tantiss was the perfect spot for his clone warehouse? Just a thought.
The cloning facility was already located there, he just took it over. It was built during the Clone Wars, and what's "the perfect spot" really mean?

No. The Emperor comissioned the construction of Mount Tantiss. I forget who said it, but someone in the novels said it looked like an entire clonemaster facility had been transplanted to Wayland.

The planet was chosen for its hostile animal life and remote location to be the Emperor's private storehouse and retreat. You think they just lucked out and found the cloning facility on a remote planet and said 'hmmm... private storehouse would go great here!'

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-25 09:16pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:No. The Emperor comissioned the construction of Mount Tantiss. I forget who said it, but someone in the novels said it looked like an entire clonemaster facility had been transplanted to Wayland.

The planet was chosen for its hostile animal life and remote location to be the Emperor's private storehouse and retreat. You think they just lucked out and found the cloning facility on a remote planet and said 'hmmm... private storehouse would go great here!'

Actually, they said that the place had been built by the clonemaster, I believe, AND, I believe that the Hero of Cartao EU Prequel storyline ends with the establishment of Mount Tantiss, before the Clone Wars ended.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-25 11:14pm

The facility blew-up without destroying the settlement at its foot. Thusly the facility did not occupy all of a very large mountain. It was not the catastrophic detonation of a region-dominating physical structure with that little collateral damage. And you'll still have to do better to wish away Mara's estimate. It can't be totally delusional. Not to mention the EGTPM depicts Mount Tantiss as a modest peak.

All that would have to happen is for it to be gutted inside with out bringing down the mountain. It's entirely possible the place was reinforced rather heavily to withstand attack. It doesn't mean much that the place didn't come crashing down.

It doesn't mean she has to be delusions, just mistaken in her estimate. She's going of old, none too reliable memories of trip a good while ago. Mara's estimate is very rough indeed.

And even a modest peak is going to have quite a bit of volume inside it.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-26 02:18am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:No. The Emperor comissioned the construction of Mount Tantiss. I forget who said it, but someone in the novels said it looked like an entire clonemaster facility had been transplanted to Wayland.

The planet was chosen for its hostile animal life and remote location to be the Emperor's private storehouse and retreat. You think they just lucked out and found the cloning facility on a remote planet and said 'hmmm... private storehouse would go great here!'
Actually, they said that the place had been built by the clonemaster, I believe, AND, I believe that the Hero of Cartao EU Prequel storyline ends with the establishment of Mount Tantiss, before the Clone Wars ended.

It ends with them being shipped to the already established Wayland.

Makes me wonder if the place wasn't originally a Sith storehouse/base/whatever you want to call it.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-09-26 03:24am

Ender wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:No. The Emperor comissioned the construction of Mount Tantiss. I forget who said it, but someone in the novels said it looked like an entire clonemaster facility had been transplanted to Wayland.

The planet was chosen for its hostile animal life and remote location to be the Emperor's private storehouse and retreat. You think they just lucked out and found the cloning facility on a remote planet and said 'hmmm... private storehouse would go great here!'
Actually, they said that the place had been built by the clonemaster, I believe, AND, I believe that the Hero of Cartao EU Prequel storyline ends with the establishment of Mount Tantiss, before the Clone Wars ended.
It ends with them being shipped to the already established Wayland.

Makes me wonder if the place wasn't originally a Sith storehouse/base/whatever you want to call it.

Both Mara and Bel Iblis (when he found out) described it as the Emperor's trophy room. A place where he siphoned off interesting technologies when he was a senator/chancellor for his own purposes. I would hardly think that it was a complete Clone Master's cloning facility, given the long gestation periods of the prequel clones, more like a small independant part.

Incidently Bel Iblis called it a 'rats nest, filled with his own self congradulating importance' or words to that effect.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-09-26 05:47am

The answer is on page 58-59 of Dark Force Rising (hardcover edition.) The Katana fleet had "new-style full-rig slave circuitry;" it cut the ship's complement of crew down from 16,000+ to ~2,000. Aside from being an expensive conversion, the Old Republic played it up for PR: it was supposed to be the Old Republic's big demonstration of how efficient a fleet of slave-rigged ships could be. They went all-out on them: redesigned interiors, new decor and equipment, and the signiture dark grey hull which gave them the nickname "Dark Force." Aside from being a huge fiasco for the OR, it also led to a big movement in decentralization of automated functions (hundreds of droids instead of one big supercomputer.)

So, the Katana fleet became a legend in the first place because the series of events was such a massive embarassment for the Old Republic.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-09-26 07:52am

I really don't know how was it originally written by Zahn, but in my copy it's translated to Tantiss mountain chain, rather than Mount Tantiss...in that case the presence of even millions of cylinders is possible.

How was it written originally a single mountain or a mountain chain?

On the other hand Mara didn't count the cloning cylinders and by just having a brief look at a facility as big as the one on Wayland, you can easily underestimate the number of the cylinders with a coule of thousands.

Maybe not all the cylinders were at the same location.
Underground facilities tend to have more big halls, not just one gigantic.

Of course these are just speculations.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-09-26 11:25am

Well, the TLC-Sourcebook describes the Mount Tantiss a little more detailed as well as its conversion into Palpatine´s storehouse.

Much of the interior seemed to have been devoted to trophies or pieces of exotic or experimental technology.

Interesting is, that the facility had four reactors each equal to the ones aboard of an ISD.

If the 20,000-cylinder-number is correct and if we assume the cloning-facility starting to spill out clones as soon as discovered (perhaps one or two weeks later, although DFR suggests a larger gap of time) we get (based on the time of Leia´s pregnancy):

-225,000 clones, if Leia was two months pregnant at the beginning of HttE and the growth of a clone took twenty day (300,000 if the growth took 15 days),
-255,000 for Leia being one month pregnant and a clone-growth of twenty days (340,000 for a clone-growth of 15 days).

Of course Mara spoke of more than 20,000 so an upper limit would probabely be 30,000 cylinders.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-26 04:55pm

In Hero Of Cartao, Kinman Doriana says that there are "several thousand" clone cylinders. The story takes place 12 months into the Clone Wars, and the Wayland facility was only recently reactivated and that is where Palpatine directed Doriana to take them.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-09-26 05:01pm

200 ships can seem insignificant. However those are 200 ships that where no longer counted on any ship listing. At the time the Dark Force was found the NR and the Imps where "evenly gunned" according to Han Solo himself. So 200 ships could concivablely make a massive difference. Particularily when used in the hit and fade operations Thrawn liked to implement.