Palpatine's Plan B

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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Publius wrote:The corporations investing in the Republican Corporate Sector were subject to regulation by the Republic; the Republic supervised all operations, to protect the "civil rights and freedoms" of labour, and to ensure that the "basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere" was preserved.
The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, as cited by Publius above and in the other thread.

Next time read what's already been posted before you make demands.
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Editor's Note: The following section may be considered withdrawn as it was posted in error, For purposes of clarity to the whole thread, however, I am leaving the text as originaly posted.
----
Since I was reading this thread and saw your response before goign to the other one you are making a rather outlandish request that I find information I yet had no way of knowing existed. The onus is on YOU to provide information not assuem that i'll stumble upon it by luck or intent.

Once more it is dishonest for you to not publish (or at least link) to information which I do have readily available. For that matter you should do it even if you have good cause to believe I ahev it handy because its called showing your supporting evidence.
----


Now as to the citing it seems to conflict with the statement that:
"...[The Corporate sector]was governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed..."

How do you justify the logical disconect between the two? I've simply taken it to mean the Republic was just as invovled as the Empire was later on (under both governments the CS was suppossed to obey the laws of the Republic/Empire but police its own affairs). The only difference seems to be that under the CSA there was an independent military rather than a Republic Sector Group...that's it.
Last edited by CmdrWilkens on 2003-09-26 04:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

You're going to have to do better than that to justify not reading the same points you were refuting. I simply pointed out you totally ignored something already brought up by the opposition to your argument: the proof was already there, and simply pointing out your handwaving doesn't necessitate me to do your reading for you. It isn't about "assuming" you'll pay attention, I think in decent debate one's expected to read the fucking arguments they are refuting.

EDIT:

As for SW.com, because the Corporate Sector could've had an assembly of its own and given partial autonomy fits the bill. You have yet to justify how the CSA in anyway existed before Palpatine when we know it did not.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You're going to have to do better than that to justify not reading the same points you were refuting. I simply pointed out you totally ignored something already brought up by the opposition to your argument: the proof was already there, and simply pointing out your handwaving doesn't necessitate me to do your reading for you. It isn't about "assuming" you'll pay attention, I think in decent debate one's expected to read the fucking arguments they are refuting.
On re-examination I withdraw. I recalled only Publius' statemetns concerning the Sector Group in the other thread, not in this one.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:EDIT:

As for SW.com, because the Corporate Sector could've had an assembly of its own and given partial autonomy fits the bill. You have yet to justify how the CSA in anyway existed before Palpatine when we know it did not.
I'm not trying to.

My whole point has been that the only differences between the CS pre and post CSA are minimal. In this case the only difference is that the CSA has its own military...that's IT. In BOTH cases they are under a superior law, in BOTH cases they have autonomous local governemnt, and under the Republic they CS grew to the size it would be when the CSA was incorporated. That has been my whole point.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

CmdrWilkens wrote:My whole point has been that the only differences between the CS pre and post CSA are minimal. In this case the only difference is that the CSA has its own military...that's IT. In BOTH cases they are under a superior law, in BOTH cases they have autonomous local governemnt, and under the Republic they CS grew to the size it would be when the CSA was incorporated. That has been my whole point.
Except they weren't under the same law. The Republic CS had to answer to all manner of Republic regulations, control, and laws--under the Empire they mostly made their own laws, and enforced them as they pleased. The CSA was almost totally a lassez faire economic zone, if I understand it correctly.
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Post by Publius »

CmdrWilkens wrote:SW.com:
"This became the Corporate Sector, a section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead run by big business."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are stating that the Corporate Sector was self governing body set up under the auspices of Republic law (much as the Corporate Sector continued tofunciton under the Empire). Unless you claim that "...gove3rned not by the Republic" means that the Republic ran the scene I don't see how you can claim they weren't autonomous to the same degree as they would be under the Empire.
As noted elsewhere, the Databank appears to have confused the Corporate Sector with the Expansion Region; the Expansion Region was "originally an experiment in corporate-controlled space", wherein the corporations themselves "had strict control of communication and transportation"; the Region was a self-governing corporatist polity, subject to the Republic but not Republican law. In this, the Expansion Region was exactly analogous to the later Corporate Sector.

However, the Databank's statement regarding the Corporate Sector is incorrect. The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook very explicitly states
In the Corporate Sector, the Republic took a much more active role than in the Expansion Region. The Republic placed itself squarely between the companies and their workers. A full naval sector group was deployed to the Corporate Sector with a dual purpose. The primary concern was protecting the civil rights and freedoms of those who chose to work and live in the Sector. The secondary concern was to make sure that the systems were responsibly managed: companies were not allowed to destroy entire planets for a few extra credits. The companies would have to operate in such a manner as to preserve the basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere.
Furthermore, note that the Galactic Corporate Policy League – comprehending the Tagge Company, Merr-Sonn Mil/Sci, Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles, Millennium Entertainments, Bank of the Core, Chiewab Amalgamated Pharmaceuticals Company, Kuat Drive Yards, Rendili StarDrive, Cybot Galactica, and the Karflo Corporation – included four companies explicitly stated to have invested in the Republic's Corporate Sector (viz., TaggeCo., Merr-Sonn, Cybot Galactica, and Bank of the Core), and the GCPL was stated to have "resented prohibitions against slavery, world-gouge mining and other "altruistic idiocies""; the implication is quite clear that these "altruistic idiocies" were restrictions applied as to the Corporate Sector as elsewhere.

(In fact, the fact that these companies resented the prohibitions against such practices means that these statutes were enforced far more conscientiously in the Corporate Sector than elsewhere: the Mining Guild is known to have engaged in gouge mining, and slavery very openly existed in the Outer Rim Territories.)

In contrast, as outlined by Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text, the Corporate Sector Authority was proposed by the Lord Tagge as "the sole owner, employer, government, and military of the region", and that because it would "be responsible for maintaining order and policing the region, there would be no investment in the region by the Empire"; the Corporate Sector Charter called for "a special non-interference region, separate and autonomous from the surrounding Empire", a "limited free market fief", completely free of "materials restrictions, often invoked during martial law in the Empire" and equally free of "content supervision over advertising and media". There would be no "ecological or social policy and the Authority could maintain its own control over the fief worlds".

In fact, the Imperial Sourcebook makes mention of the Galactic Empire's numerous client states, "regions of space almost entirely controlled by another economic or political entity, yet ultimately loyal and subservient to the Empire" and states that the "Corporate Sector, under the control of the Corporate Sector Authority, is one such client state, as is the infamous area of the galaxy known as Hutt Space".

It is clear from the facts in evidence that whatever degree of self-government afforded the Corporate Sector by the Galactic Republic, it was not at all comparable to the independence and autonomy of the Corporate Sector under the CSA and the Empire. The former was a special-purpose region of space governed by the Republic; for all intents and purposes, the CSA was an immediate vassal of the Galactic Emperor (a comparison given especial accuracy by the fact that the CSA is a corporation, that is, an artificial person under law).
CmdrWilkens wrote:Publius: "At its start, the Corporate Sector encompassed only several hundred systems, carefully chosen by the Republic for their lack of native, sentient life. But as the profits began to swell, so did the territory. By the time of the Empire, the Corporate Sector ballooned to include nearly 30,000 stars."

As you said the Corporate Sector STARTED at only a few hundred. HOWEVER by the time of the Empire it numbered 30,000. This means BEFORE the inception of the CSA under Imperial auspices there were already 30,000 stars, that's what "by the time of" means.
"By the time of" is not synonymous with "before". In fact, any time period at all during the existence Empire can be correctly referred to as being "by the time of the Empire"; still, your interpretation of the text here is a valid one. Unfortunately, it is an incorrect one, given the totality of the evidence: Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text states explicitly that "Baron Tagge, informal leader of the League, formulated a plan centered on changing the way the Corporate Sector was administered" and that he "proposed that the region of space known as the Corporate Sector be expanded to include nearly 30,000 unclaimed stars"; given that it was also the Lord Tagge that "proposed that a new corporation, the Corporate Sector Authority, be formed", it is clear that the Sector's expansion was part and parcel of the reconstitution, as approved by the Galactic Emperor.
CmdrWilkens wrote:How do you justify the logical disconect between the two? I've simply taken it to mean the Republic was just as invovled as the Empire was later on (under both governments the CS was suppossed to obey the laws of the Republic/Empire but police its own affairs). The only difference seems to be that under the CSA there was an independent military rather than a Republic Sector Group...that's it.
The evidence does not admit of such an interpretation. The Republic was heavily involved in the government of the Corporate Sector, passed and enforced legislation regarding it, and supervised operations within it. The Empire has little to no involvement in the management of the Corporate Sector, and even surrendered the right to military and naval operations, and to censorship and information control within its borders. The degree of political involvement in the two versions is considerably different.

The Republic's Corporate Sector was an area of space whose star systems could be leased or purchased by various and sundry individual corporations directly from the Republic; there is no indication of any kind of any sort of collective corporatist government of the Sector. There were taxes paid by the investing corporations, and uniform laws applied throughout; labour's rights were guarded by the Republican security forces. The Empire's Corporate Sector was exclusively administered and wholly owned by the CSA, a monopoly owning and operating all business ventures in the Sector and employing all personnel. There were no taxes within the Sector, nor did the shareholding sponsors pay any taxes (the CSA itself paid an annual tribute to HIM Treasury); conspiracy to form a trade syndicate was one of the most serious criminal offences in the penal code. The character of commerce in the two versions is considerably different.

In short, sir, the Empire's Corporate Sector is a fundamentally and radically different entity than the Republic's; the differences between the two are far more comprehensive and essential than the mere addition of an independent military and starfleet. The similarities between the two are no more than superficial, the inaccurate and ambiguous claims of the Databank notwithstanding.

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Post by Death from the Sea »

Stormbringer wrote:
Death from the Sea wrote:what is this Eye of Palpatine everyone is talking about and what did it do?
Basically, from what I gather it's Raith Seniar's Battle Planetoid. Essentially a really big warship, essentially a baby Death Star minus the super laser.

It was supposed to be built in secret and then turned loose to exterminate an enclave of jedi children. Instead, due to the high degree of automation, it was sabotaged and lost until a former Emperor's Hand and her brat kid attempted to recover it. Naturally they failed due to an act of plot.

It's from Children of the Jedi. Read at your own risk.
thanks for the info.
And as to what I was really trying to get at is not if it was possible but more like if it happened that the Seperatists won; how would you envision the SW Galaxy in the time of the orginal trilogy? how would it have changed the situation?
They couldn't have. They could mount a credible threat and force a showdown but with Palpatine pulling the strings they really couldn't have won.
Um.... you are avoidng my topic, I didn't ask if anyone thought the Seperatists could have won and how; I was asking how ya'll envision Palpatines Galactic Empire with the Seperatists winning the Clone Wars and not the Old Republic. I mean would it be Palpatines or do you think Dooku would betray him and continue leading the Seperatists? would there be Storm Troopers or would they stick with Droids? Would Vader exist? things like that.....

I am not looking for reasons it is not possible.
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Post by Stormbringer »

That's the problem though. It couldn't really have happened save by an enormous fluke. Unless Palpatine choses incomprehensibly to squander all his advantages he really can't lose.
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Post by Lex »

Kuja wrote:
Lex wrote:i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?
Because he didn't want Jedi children growing up and opposing him.
Why does he need a almost Death Star like battlestation do kill children?
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Post by Stormbringer »

Lex wrote:
Kuja wrote:
Lex wrote:i got a question: why does Palpatine build a large battlestation too destroy a few jedi, most of them childs?
Because he didn't want Jedi children growing up and opposing him.
Why does he need a almost Death Star like battlestation do kill children?
Since you didn't bother to read the answer given last time:
Stormbringer wrote:I'm guessing it was just a perk of having a new, bigass battlestation. It was most likely intended as a proto-Death Star. Basically, the same sort of seige weapon and long haul warship that the DS became later. The Eye was built early on in the Empire and it's possible the Death Star weren't yet possible. At least in terms of sheer power generation.
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Post by Smiling Bandit »

wouldn't he have been aware of Amidala's policy of using a body double for security?
Going way back to answer this.

he might have. BUt there is no reason he neccessarily told Dooku, Dooku may have not felt like telling Jango, who may or may have told Zam. Ok, Boba would have told Zam. But remember, Palpatine may have known she was using doubles and she evaded death anyway.

1) We know about the bombing at Coruscant. Likely, Zam managed to place a bomb on the platform somehow. That could easily have been intended to blow them all away, and Zam may have presumed Amidala wouldn't be flying a starfighter if Zam knew about the swapping.

2) Amidala may have stopped using the body double trick after she became Senator. Indeed, there is no evidence she used it regularly when her life was not in immediate danger.

3) It would fit Palpatine's plans well if Amidala were to die. He'd have a martyr, evidence of the seperatists (and maybe Trade Fed's)s complicity would soon appear of course (though of course Jango would mysteriously never have been caught). And of course, palpatine could adopt the image of righteous fury, of a man whose faith in peace was broken by the cruel and malicious Seperatists. And of course, Amidala, leader of the peace faction, just died. Her successor from Naboo is likely to be angry and bitter, and if they put Jar-Jar in place... we, we saw how THAT turned out.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

Publius wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:SW.com:
"This became the Corporate Sector, a section of space governed not by the Republic or the Empire that followed, but instead run by big business."

Seems pretty clear to me that they are stating that the Corporate Sector was self governing body set up under the auspices of Republic law (much as the Corporate Sector continued tofunciton under the Empire). Unless you claim that "...gove3rned not by the Republic" means that the Republic ran the scene I don't see how you can claim they weren't autonomous to the same degree as they would be under the Empire.
As noted elsewhere, the Databank appears to have confused the Corporate Sector with the Expansion Region; the Expansion Region was "originally an experiment in corporate-controlled space", wherein the corporations themselves "had strict control of communication and transportation"; the Region was a self-governing corporatist polity, subject to the Republic but not Republican law. In this, the Expansion Region was exactly analogous to the later Corporate Sector.
Except that the databank references the attempts to work out things in teh expansion regions. It explicitly states that the Corporate Sector (which later grew into the Corporate Sector under the CSA) was not governed by the Republic.
Publius wrote:However, the Databank's statement regarding the Corporate Sector is incorrect. The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook very explicitly states
Then we have a disagreement between two sources. I find that not at all unbelievable.
Publius wrote:
[i]Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook[/i] wrote:In the Corporate Sector, the Republic took a much more active role than in the Expansion Region. The Republic placed itself squarely between the companies and their workers. A full naval sector group was deployed to the Corporate Sector with a dual purpose. The primary concern was protecting the civil rights and freedoms of those who chose to work and live in the Sector. The secondary concern was to make sure that the systems were responsibly managed: companies were not allowed to destroy entire planets for a few extra credits. The companies would have to operate in such a manner as to preserve the basic integrity of each world's natural ecosphere.
Furthermore, note that the Galactic Corporate Policy League ? comprehending the Tagge Company, Merr-Sonn Mil/Sci, Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles, Millennium Entertainments, Bank of the Core, Chiewab Amalgamated Pharmaceuticals Company, Kuat Drive Yards, Rendili StarDrive, Cybot Galactica, and the Karflo Corporation ? included four companies explicitly stated to have invested in the Republic's Corporate Sector (viz., TaggeCo., Merr-Sonn, Cybot Galactica, and Bank of the Core), and the GCPL was stated to have "resented prohibitions against slavery, world-gouge mining and other "altruistic idiocies""; the implication is quite clear that these "altruistic idiocies" were restrictions applied as to the Corporate Sector as elsewhere.

(In fact, the fact that these companies resented the prohibitions against such practices means that these statutes were enforced far more conscientiously in the Corporate Sector than elsewhere: the Mining Guild is known to have engaged in gouge mining, and slavery very openly existed in the Outer Rim Territories.)

In contrast, as outlined by Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text, the Corporate Sector Authority was proposed by the Lord Tagge as "the sole owner, employer, government, and military of the region", and that because it would "be responsible for maintaining order and policing the region, there would be no investment in the region by the Empire"; the Corporate Sector Charter called for "a special non-interference region, separate and autonomous from the surrounding Empire", a "limited free market fief", completely free of "materials restrictions, often invoked during martial law in the Empire" and equally free of "content supervision over advertising and media". There would be no "ecological or social policy and the Authority could maintain its own control over the fief worlds".

In fact, the Imperial Sourcebook makes mention of the Galactic Empire's numerous client states, "regions of space almost entirely controlled by another economic or political entity, yet ultimately loyal and subservient to the Empire" and states that the "Corporate Sector, under the control of the Corporate Sector Authority, is one such client state, as is the infamous area of the galaxy known as Hutt Space".

It is clear from the facts in evidence that whatever degree of self-government afforded the Corporate Sector by the Galactic Republic, it was not at all comparable to the independence and autonomy of the Corporate Sector under the CSA and the Empire. The former was a special-purpose region of space governed by the Republic; for all intents and purposes, the CSA was an immediate vassal of the Galactic Emperor (a comparison given especial accuracy by the fact that the CSA is a corporation, that is, an artificial person under law).
Yet again they are still governed by overreaching laws. Notably the events of Han Solo's Revenge could not have ahppened without anti-slavery laws being imosed. laws which were Imperial in origin.
Publius wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:Publius: "At its start, the Corporate Sector encompassed only several hundred systems, carefully chosen by the Republic for their lack of native, sentient life. But as the profits began to swell, so did the territory. By the time of the Empire, the Corporate Sector ballooned to include nearly 30,000 stars."

As you said the Corporate Sector STARTED at only a few hundred. HOWEVER by the time of the Empire it numbered 30,000. This means BEFORE the inception of the CSA under Imperial auspices there were already 30,000 stars, that's what "by the time of" means.
"By the time of" is not synonymous with "before". In fact, any time period at all during the existence Empire can be correctly referred to as being "by the time of the Empire"; still, your interpretation of the text here is a valid one. Unfortunately, it is an incorrect one, given the totality of the evidence: Mr. Horne's Corporate Sector text states explicitly that "Baron Tagge, informal leader of the League, formulated a plan centered on changing the way the Corporate Sector was administered" and that he "proposed that the region of space known as the Corporate Sector be expanded to include nearly 30,000 unclaimed stars"; given that it was also the Lord Tagge that "proposed that a new corporation, the Corporate Sector Authority, be formed", it is clear that the Sector's expansion was part and parcel of the reconstitution, as approved by the Galactic Emperor.
That doesn't mean that the Corporate Sector was not at 29,000 stars before Tagge's Plan. Given the beginning and end states (start of the CS and tiem of the CSA's incorporation) we have no real indication of the amounts intervening. however we do know that the numbers grew from the original systems to the final number of 300,000 gradually, it wasn't a one-shot deal. Now possibly the original charter during the Republic-era did not specifically cover the expansion and that is why Tagge wanted a fresh list of systems (in addition to the CSA).
Publius wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:How do you justify the logical disconect between the two? I've simply taken it to mean the Republic was just as invovled as the Empire was later on (under both governments the CS was suppossed to obey the laws of the Republic/Empire but police its own affairs). The only difference seems to be that under the CSA there was an independent military rather than a Republic Sector Group...that's it.
The evidence does not admit of such an interpretation. The Republic was heavily involved in the government of the Corporate Sector, passed and enforced legislation regarding it, and supervised operations within it. The Empire has little to no involvement in the management of the Corporate Sector, and even surrendered the right to military and naval operations, and to censorship and information control within its borders. The degree of political involvement in the two versions is considerably different.
Once again there is a conflict between SW.com and the Soucebook on this issue. Once more SW.com is NOT referring tothe expansion regions (that is tlaked about seperately). Thus I take it to mean that while the Republci did have a military prescence and enforced certain over-arching laws (such as anti-slavery meausures, rights of workers, etc) the did not administer local laws.
Publius wrote:The Republic's Corporate Sector was an area of space whose star systems could be leased or purchased by various and sundry individual corporations directly from the Republic; there is no indication of any kind of any sort of collective corporatist government of the Sector. There were taxes paid by the investing corporations, and uniform laws applied throughout; labour's rights were guarded by the Republican security forces. The Empire's Corporate Sector was exclusively administered and wholly owned by the CSA, a monopoly owning and operating all business ventures in the Sector and employing all personnel. There were no taxes within the Sector, nor did the shareholding sponsors pay any taxes (the CSA itself paid an annual tribute to HIM Treasury); conspiracy to form a trade syndicate was one of the most serious criminal offences in the penal code. The character of commerce in the two versions is considerably different.
Once again your statement runs flat against the explicit denial in SW.com which states that the area was not governed by the Republic but was rather governed (administered if you prefer) by corporate intrests.
Publius wrote:In short, sir, the Empire's Corporate Sector is a fundamentally and radically different entity than the Republic's; the differences between the two are far more comprehensive and essential than the mere addition of an independent military and starfleet. The similarities between the two are no more than superficial, the inaccurate and ambiguous claims of the Databank notwithstanding.

PUBLIUS
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Post by Lex »

Stormbringer wrote:
Lex wrote:
Kuja wrote: Because he didn't want Jedi children growing up and opposing him.
Why does he need a almost Death Star like battlestation do kill children?
Since you didn't bother to read the answer given last time:
Stormbringer wrote:I'm guessing it was just a perk of having a new, bigass battlestation. It was most likely intended as a proto-Death Star. Basically, the same sort of seige weapon and long haul warship that the DS became later. The Eye was built early on in the Empire and it's possible the Death Star weren't yet possible. At least in terms of sheer power generation.

yeez i was talking to Kuja
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