hyperdrive what if

[Ghost Rider]

Oh and one last thing why didn't they use it again when Data and Worf came to retrieve him...they used it before...were still distracted by a light and hat tricks Riker was using against their ship?

[Alyeska]

Oh and one last thing why didn't they use it again when Data and Worf came to retrieve him...they used it before...were still distracted by a light and hat tricks Riker was using against their ship?

You claimed no KE shielding. I disproved that. This is not about tactical or strategic inteligence.

[Ghost Rider]

Yet they never use this again...literally show me how this is beyond a plot point(ie retrieving Picard would've ruined the climax)

At times they literally have an almost contradictory notion...don't allow torpedos...but allow ships to go through(both Shuttles and 8472 have shown this ability).

Don't let Worf touch Picard now...but later...it's A-okay(They are literally SPOTTED and no KE shield leaps up...in fact Worf just rushes forward)

Don't let him beam him off just yet...but hey when you have him captured...once again it's a-okay.

Literally in BoBW, they showed some strange KE shielding notions

Drone having no Ke to me is just some astounding oversight on B&B's part...I mean a group of Tommy gun wielding thugs have no problem destroying the borg with impunity, plus ignoring anything KE is almost astounding given the supposed time this race has been conquering other races...they must've come across this before.

[CmdrWilkens]

Oh please...when simple KE object SHRED a borg...they still rely upon frequency specfic items...

Literally if the Borg are such a gigantic threat, they don't change to KE items but instead rely upon technobabble and modulating phasers?

I mean please...Frequency has gotten their assed handed to them but seeing what specfic frequency a shield holds(the Duross sisters...) and there is no changes even with this blantant show of stupidity. Let alone..."we must change our frequency for two shots, even though a knife rips through them" Borg

KE has only been shown to work against Drones. We have plenty of evidence of the Borg using KE shielding AWAY from their Drones (BOBW, First Contact).

I think this would be obvious based upon the fact that Pho-Torps don't hit the hull on Borg Cubes but rather explode at the shield perimiter. However that's when you get into the matter of CapShip weaponry versus shields when Ghost Rider (despite where the thread has gone) was dealing specifically with tactical ground combat. In other words given the subject he was dealing with statement is really a red herring.

[CmdrWilkens]

what if the blue prints for a working hyperdrive came into the hands of quark? how would this affect deep space nine and the star trek powers, and the imperial war sometime later?

I'd give Trek no better than a 50/50 chance of getting a wokring model within the next two generaitons. Its been pointed out many times, too many to count, that in 80+ years of trying they still haven'tgotten TrasWarp to work and several other big FTL ideas have suffered from failure in precision control (IIRC 7of9 has a quote on this) which would be a horrendous problem with Hyperdrive.

Basically even if this were to happen the only big deal would be that Quark might be rich enough afterwards to set up shop in the soon to be ruler of the galaxy Empire.

[Darth Wong]

what if the blue prints for a working hyperdrive came into the hands of quark? how would this affect deep space nine and the star trek powers, and the imperial war sometime later?

I'd give Trek no better than a 50/50 chance of getting a wokring model within the next two generaitons.

I wouldn't even give them that much chance. Let's take an analogy; suppose the schematics for a modern CPU fell into the hands of Leonardo Da Vinci? What would he do with them? Precisely dick. He would die before they had the slightest clue how to make the thing, never mind the refined materials they need or the refined instruments and proceses they have to use.

Similarly, suppose the blueprints for a modern car engine fell into the hands of, good ol' Leo. Would he have any better luck? Not likely; again, he won't have the precision machine tools he needs to fabricate the thing, nor will he have he appropriate alloys, nor will he have the various components he needs to make the thing work (what's he doing to do with the part of the blueprint that calls for the inclusion of a mass air-flow sensor?)

[Ghost Rider]

I agree with Wong whighly on this given that how the mechanism even works.

Literally it's not just an altercation of M/AM...it would be giving us a Warp Drive...and going"reverse engineer the sucker!"

Sorry while Sci-fi and anime especially(my god they reverse engineer anything) sometimes love going into the ingenuity of man(Robotech is by far one of my faves in this regard)...if we have no idea how they even begin to make the thing...or what the hell the substances involved(Da Vinci and the wonders of a car engine)...how the hell are we supposed to understnad what component A even is.

I mean it's like when I argued with a friend about what if we give a Caveman a radio...would he be able to take it apart and understand it and he said yes...and he said Man would find a way...sorry man needs some reference and clues persay of how to even the thing works before they can even begin to reverse engineer the sucker.

[Ghost Rider]

And working Blueprints actually would be worse...ooops

I mean so what...now you know what to need...do you even

A. Do they understand them?(I mean yeah if you saw the Blueprints of Nuclear reactor...could you build one?...even with Engineering training?)

B. Have access to said resources?(a Hyperdrive is just a modified Warp Engine)

C. Know what combination of fuel/materials is required?

Let's say by some bizarre technobabble they understand them, and by some miracle of Q they get part B...then they have actually construct the thing...what next test a thing you don't know what the on switch will do?

I mean this is giving a 15th century man the tools and materials needed for an atom bomb...doesn't mean he'll make it working for his use beyond it'll be big and do something he's not even too sure what it'll do.

[Ghost Rider]

isn't a modified Warp engine...gah

[Patrick Degan]

I guess you forgot the KE shield that held back Worf from getting at Picard in BOBW PT-1. I guess you didn't know about the KE shields used within the borg ships in Voyager. And don't put words in my mouth either. I never claimed the Drones had KE shielding, but that the ships were capable of stopping it.

This is a dubious example at best. Yes, the forcefield stopped Worf from getting at Locutus. Worf was also moving at human running speed at best and constituted a large body with correspondingly large surface area but very low forward momentum. The mechanics suggest an electrical arc field not very dissimilar to the standard forcefields in use for starship detention cells or the hangar deck forcefields used to keep atmospheric pressure when the hangar doors are open to space. It may be able to stop a man from running through the field perimetre. Small, high-velocity objects (like bullets) would be a different matter entirely.

[Alyeska]

I guess you forgot the KE shield that held back Worf from getting at Picard in BOBW PT-1. I guess you didn't know about the KE shields used within the borg ships in Voyager. And don't put words in my mouth either. I never claimed the Drones had KE shielding, but that the ships were capable of stopping it.

This is a dubious example at best. Yes, the forcefield stopped Worf from getting at Locutus. Worf was also moving at human running speed at best and constituted a large body with correspondingly large surface area but very low forward momentum. The mechanics suggest an electrical arc field not very dissimilar to the standard forcefields in use for starship detention cells or the hangar deck forcefields used to keep atmospheric pressure when the hangar doors are open to space. It may be able to stop a man from running through the field perimetre. Small, high-velocity objects (like bullets) would be a different matter entirely.

Did I claim it would stop bullets?

[jegs2]

It would be too difficult for the Federation scientists to work out, even with fairly detailed blueprints. It's kind of like learning to run before you can walk. They simply do not have the technology to duplicate the drive, although they would almost certainly pay Quark handsomely for it if he could explain what it did.

A good example is if someone gave the blueprint for an average notebook computer to an engineer during WW2:

"Okay, all we need are microchi.....what the heck is a microchip?!"

"Need an SVGA active matrix LCD and a Pentiu..... alright, who's the joker?! My time's too valuable for this horse crap!"[/code]

[CmdrWilkens]

what if the blue prints for a working hyperdrive came into the hands of quark? how would this affect deep space nine and the star trek powers, and the imperial war sometime later?

I'd give Trek no better than a 50/50 chance of getting a wokring model within the next two generaitons.

I wouldn't even give them that much chance. Let's take an analogy; suppose the schematics for a modern CPU fell into the hands of Leonardo Da Vinci? What would he do with them? Precisely dick. He would die before they had the slightest clue how to make the thing, never mind the refined materials they need or the refined instruments and proceses they have to use.

Similarly, suppose the blueprints for a modern car engine fell into the hands of, good ol' Leo. Would he have any better luck? Not likely; again, he won't have the precision machine tools he needs to fabricate the thing, nor will he have he appropriate alloys, nor will he have the various components he needs to make the thing work (what's he doing to do with the part of the blueprint that calls for the inclusion of a mass air-flow sensor?)

The only reasons why I give them that much of a chance is that two generations, with the rather longer lived humans of TNG era Trek, might have some excitement and increased funding placed towards trying to understand the basics behind much of the components. If these blueprints are good and kind enough to include full circuit diagrams and if the Feds are aware of its purpsoe and the can read Basic then it certianly owuld be a a challenge they would throw many poeple at. Anyway they have a poor track record but in this case within your analogy I'd be giving Leo, his son, and his grandson all a chance to try and work on the problem which gives you a bit more time and a chance for detailed research.

[Patrick Degan]

I guess you forgot the KE shield that held back Worf from getting at Picard in BOBW PT-1. I guess you didn't know about the KE shields used within the borg ships in Voyager. And don't put words in my mouth either. I never claimed the Drones had KE shielding, but that the ships were capable of stopping it.

This is a dubious example at best. Yes, the forcefield stopped Worf from getting at Locutus. Worf was also moving at human running speed at best and constituted a large body with correspondingly large surface area but very low forward momentum. The mechanics suggest an electrical arc field not very dissimilar to the standard forcefields in use for starship detention cells or the hangar deck forcefields used to keep atmospheric pressure when the hangar doors are open to space. It may be able to stop a man from running through the field perimetre. Small, high-velocity objects (like bullets) would be a different matter entirely.

Did I claim it would stop bullets?

You pointed to this forcefield as an example of a kinetic energy shield. If all it can do is prevent ordinary humanoids or drones from passing through the field perimetre, then all it really can be is a confinement field. Kinetic assault involves high velocity objects or at the least objects moving at greater momentum than human running speed, and if the forcefield in question cannot stop an attack of this nature, then it cannot rightly be counted as a defence against kinetic assault or be labelled a KE shield.

[Patrick Degan]

The only reasons why I give them that much of a chance is that two generations, with the rather longer lived humans of TNG era Trek, might have some excitement and increased funding placed towards trying to understand the basics behind much of the components. If these blueprints are good and kind enough to include full circuit diagrams and if the Feds are aware of its purpsoe and the can read Basic then it certianly owuld be a a challenge they would throw many poeple at. Anyway they have a poor track record but in this case within your analogy I'd be giving Leo, his son, and his grandson all a chance to try and work on the problem which gives you a bit more time and a chance for detailed research.

Unfortunately, you're still talking about a device which is a few generations beyond even experimental quantum slipstream drive, at minimum. Even working through three lifetimes, yielding up a working prototype would not be a feasible proposition if the technological and industrial base for the hyperdrive does not exist in the general society.

And in any case, given the likelihood of the Federation not being able to last even a few weeks against an Imperial blitzkrieg, Leo won't even have the chance to start working on the project before his lab and his planet are in Imperial hands.

[CmdrWilkens]

The only reasons why I give them that much of a chance is that two generations, with the rather longer lived humans of TNG era Trek, might have some excitement and increased funding placed towards trying to understand the basics behind much of the components. If these blueprints are good and kind enough to include full circuit diagrams and if the Feds are aware of its purpsoe and the can read Basic then it certianly owuld be a a challenge they would throw many poeple at. Anyway they have a poor track record but in this case within your analogy I'd be giving Leo, his son, and his grandson all a chance to try and work on the problem which gives you a bit more time and a chance for detailed research.

Unfortunately, you're still talking about a device which is a few generations beyond even experimental quantum slipstream drive, at minimum. Even working through three lifetimes, yielding up a working prototype would not be a feasible proposition if the technological and industrial base for the hyperdrive does not exist in the general society.

And in any case, given the likelihood of the Federation not being able to last even a few weeks against an Imperial blitzkrieg, Leo won't even have the chance to start working on the project before his lab and his planet are in Imperial hands.

Call me a Vegas oddsman but I never really count people out. Admittedly if they had a fully working prototype it'd be better than just blueprints but you could get a "new direction" type of inspiraiton. Seeing the deivce might refocus their efort and there exists the shady chance that over the course of 100 years or so that they mgiht make a crude working prototype. Now obviously this would be in a vacumum where the Empire decides not to crush them forcing a diversion of scientific monies to shipbuilding btu neh.