Lowest End Sci-Fi Universe?

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2002-09-23 10:52pm

The Apes from planet of the Apes. (of course in the second one they have a bomb that could vaporise a planet, but I consider that forget technology)

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-09-24 01:23am

Sam Or I wrote:The Apes from planet of the Apes. (of course in the second one they have a bomb that could vaporise a planet, but I consider that forget technology)

You forgot —it was Victor Buono and the Bomb People who had it, not the apes.

And it didn't vapourise the Earth. Remember the closing narration from Beneath The Planet Of The Apes: "Among the countless stars in the endless galaxies of the universe lies one insignificant sun. And around that sun circles a small, blue planet —now dead."

I love the original POTA films, no matter how hokey they get after the original. Even for serving up King Tut as the president of the Bomb People in BPOTA.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-09-24 01:56pm

One of the lowest end Sci Fi universes is probably the Martian Chronicles of Edgar Rice Burroughs. I love the books, but compared to modern sci fi it is very low tech. You have to remember that the first book in the series "A Princess of Mars" was written in 1912.

I'll give you a few examples of the technology:

The Martians use the "eight ray" of light in order to fly. Their ships are analogous to Earth naval warships.

They use the "ninth ray" in order to produce oxygen, so that life can exist on Mars. This technology is actually fairly advanced for science fiction, however, it is not as advanced as the most advanced terraforming processes that other science fiction shows have.

The Martians utilize radium powder as explosives. This powder instantly explodes when it comes into contact with sunlight. They use projectiles with opaque shells in their firearms. They have incredible ranges though. They can hit a target up to 300 miles away, or so. (Ref APOM) For daytime fighting, they use standard projectiles. Even though the Martians have these weapons, they prefer to utilize swords in combat. I think Gene Roddenbury sp? based the Klingons off the "green men of mars" These green aliens were vicious warriors who wielded firearms and swords in combat.

Spaceflight also exists in the Martian Chronicles. The spaceflight is not very advanced though. There is no mention of any FTL technology. Only interplanetary travel has been recorded in the novels.

Has anyone else read these books?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-09-24 06:57pm

You have the books just slightly confused Leero —Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars series is usually referred to as the John Carter Of Mars books. The Martian Chronicles was one of Ray Bradbury signature works. From 1965, I think.

As for Gene Roddenberry (more likely Gene Coon) borrowing the Green Men as the model for the Klingons, that's an interesting possibility.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-09-24 07:45pm

Patrick Degan wrote:You have the books just slightly confused Leero —Edgar Rice Burroughs' Mars series is usually referred to as the John Carter Of Mars books. The Martian Chronicles was one of Ray Bradbury signature works. From 1965, I think.

As for Gene Roddenberry (more likely Gene Coon) borrowing the Green Men as the model for the Klingons, that's an interesting possibility.

"John Carter of Mars" was actually the title of the last two stories of the series. The Giant of Mars ( I think that is the title) was combined in one book with the Skeleton Men of Jupiter ( I think that was the title). I have the entire Mars series at home. (I'm working so I can't double check the titles). The series that I have uses the The Martian Tales or Chronicles of Edgar Rice Burroughs on the cover of each book. Under that, it uses the name of the particular story, ie. "The Gods of Mars". I will double check all of this when I get home.

Aside from the confusion over the title of the series, how far down on the scale is this universe compared to others?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-09-25 12:42am

I always understood the generic title to identify the Mars books to have been John Carter Of Mars, but then ERB never put any sort of umbrella title on his novel series.

I managed to get my hands on hardback copies of five of Burroughs' Mars books and hope to start ploughing through them. I mainly know the series through Frank Frazetta's evocative cover paintings and illustrations reprinted in my Frazetta books. It's very much sword-n'sandal, with some touches of SuperScience here and there and very little in the way of actual science, naturally. Mainly, the impression I get is that Burroughs modeled his Martian society off the popular conception of the Arabic world in that day. By and large, very low-end, tech-wise.

Nice touch that Radium powder is the energy source for Barsoomian tech. Very 1912. Everybody would have known about radium from the Curie experiments, naturally. For writers of "scientific romances", it was the matter/antimatter of its day.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-09-25 08:10am

Commander LeoRo wrote:One of the lowest end Sci Fi universes is probably the Martian Chronicles of Edgar Rice Burroughs. I love the books, but compared to modern sci fi it is very low tech. You have to remember that the first book in the series "A Princess of Mars" was written in 1912.

I'll give you a few examples of the technology:

The Martians use the "eight ray" of light in order to fly. Their ships are analogous to Earth naval warships.

They use the "ninth ray" in order to produce oxygen, so that life can exist on Mars. This technology is actually fairly advanced for science fiction, however, it is not as advanced as the most advanced terraforming processes that other science fiction shows have.

The Martians utilize radium powder as explosives. This powder instantly explodes when it comes into contact with sunlight. They use projectiles with opaque shells in their firearms. They have incredible ranges though. They can hit a target up to 300 miles away, or so. (Ref APOM) For daytime fighting, they use standard projectiles. Even though the Martians have these weapons, they prefer to utilize swords in combat. I think Gene Roddenbury sp? based the Klingons off the "green men of mars" These green aliens were vicious warriors who wielded firearms and swords in combat.

Spaceflight also exists in the Martian Chronicles. The spaceflight is not very advanced though. There is no mention of any FTL technology. Only interplanetary travel has been recorded in the novels.

Has anyone else read these books?

Yeah, I love the maritan chonicles! But to be far they have had some peatty advanced tech, disintragation weaponry, cloaking, powerful teloscopes (they can see people on earth) can transplate any organ from one body to another, and mentally controled airships. And those raduim bullets are powerful enought to damage/destroy airships, so there use makes them more anouleges to missles launchers than explosive bullets of today. Sure thier not the most powerful, but if we give them all of the tech used in the novels the maritains are decent ground forces. They could kick our ass thats for sure.

Mr. Mister · Post by **Mr. Mister** » 2002-09-25 02:47pm

Hmm... what about in Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny? It seems to be a bizarre mishmash of low and high tech (plus you have the mutations that turned "the First" into Hindu deities). Does the artificial suppression of technology make them low or high-tech? I mean, they have the technology to transfer a person's soul into a test-tube grown body, mechanically inducing reincarnation. On the other hand, people are amazed at the "invention" of toilets.

unigolyn · Post by **unigolyn** » 2002-09-27 12:12am

Wing Commander (of the games, not the movie, which i haven't seen). Very lo-tech, aside from the speed of FTL travel (their jump engines take them instantly from one jump point to another), but in normal space they're slow as hell.

Wing Commander vs Babylon 5 - Starfuries can dance in newtonian circles around Wing Commander's glorified jet planes. WC's capships have no shielding and can be taken out with a few well-placed missiles. One can fly through their hangar bays and leave mines in them, with nothing more than a few lousy turrets on the capship.

Wing Commander vs Star Trek - They'd have a bit of trouble locking on to the fighters maybe, but the fighters can't get through the shields, and they'd eventually run out of fuel.

Wing Commander vs Star Wars - Ha.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-09-27 01:43am

unigolyn - Are you sure about that no shields thing? I thought they did have shields. That's why you have keep a target lock on them when you use the torpedoes. It was to give the computer time to cut through the shielding so that the torpedo would go through. That's also why in Wing Commander Academy if you jack up your weapons' fire rates you can shoot your guns at a capship and it'll just spin around with no damage. Your shots just won't get in. Also in Fleet Action, one of the books it mentions that the capital ships have shields. I don't know if that's considered canon though. It might have to do with when the events occurred. Which games are you basing your info off of?

unigolyn · Post by **unigolyn** » 2002-09-27 02:53am

neoolong wrote:unigolyn - Are you sure about that no shields thing? I thought they did have shields. That's why you have keep a target lock on them when you use the torpedoes. It was to give the computer time to cut through the shielding so that the torpedo would go through. That's also why in Wing Commander Academy if you jack up your weapons' fire rates you can shoot your guns at a capship and it'll just spin around with no damage. Your shots just won't get in. Also in Fleet Action, one of the books it mentions that the capital ships have shields. I don't know if that's considered canon though. It might have to do with when the events occurred. Which games are you basing your info off of?

The ones i've played, WC 1-4. Cut through the shilelding? How's that. I thought you kept the targetting on to guide the torpedo. I forget if torpedo targets can be switched after launch, but this would make sense (one cap blows up while your torpedo is en route, you simply redirect it to another target). If what you're referring to are shields, explain how an enemy fighter can fly through a carrier's flight deck, free to leave anything it wants there, like, say a nuke or something. You can shoot your guns at capships without effect, but those same guns can take off turrets on the ship. Are the turrets left unshielded? Why on earth? I think that bigger capships just have relatively strong armour, compared to the not-so-powerful weaponry of the fighters. If there IS a shield, it's a very odd shield indeed, if physical objects can pass through it, and leech cannons can hit the engines.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-09-27 07:43am

Space 1999 is the weaklings in any way shape or form!

They have some funky explosives that tosses the moon out of orbit from the earth.

The interstellar traveltime is wierld they can't accelerate but somhow travels betveen starsystems in weeks.

Weapons are guns that is even worse than phasers both in effect and ergonomical design.

Computers are slow witout gui/command prompt of any sort just card readers.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-09-27 11:41am

unigolyn - I wasn't really sure about the ships in the games. I was just working off memory. But I checked www.wcnews.com in their ships sections. It seems that they say that the capital ships have shields. I don't know how accurate the site is but that's what it says. Also, I checked the book and it talks about how the humans used a landing craft against a Kilrathi carrier, this was a newly designed carrier. In order to get into the carrier bay they had to switch their transponder frequency a second before they hit the shield so that it would let them through. I don't know if the books are in the continuity of the games though. As for the cutting through the shielding, I don't know about that actually I was just going off of a vague recollection, so that's wrong I think.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-27 11:52am

Wing Commander warships have shielding. The balance between offense and defense has tilted back and forth through the entire saga, but there were always shields.

Torpedos are designed to find a 'frequency hole' through shielding and slip through, hence why they have such a long lock-on time. A latter advance was phase shielding, which made it much harder for fighter to kill capships initially, but that was overcome.

For whatever reason, weapons mounts are exposed. I don't know, but it may be related to game mechanics. In the novels, I don't recall such events happening.

By the time of WCP/WCSO, only the heaviest fighter-grade weapons could penetrate capital ship shielding, such as plasma cannon (raw output overcomes the shield locally) or torpedos (which ignore shielding). Also, terminal defense is pretty good.

unigolyn · Post by **unigolyn** » 2002-09-27 11:49pm

neoolong wrote:Also, I checked the book and it talks about how the humans used a landing craft against a Kilrathi carrier, this was a newly designed carrier. In order to get into the carrier bay they had to switch their transponder frequency a second before they hit the shield so that it would let them through. I don't know if the books are in the continuity of the games though.

Not in continuity, as in WC4 you can fly through enemy carrier bays at will, no transponder codes necessary. So if the shields are there, they must be very close to the hull, probably no more than a foot off the surface, and thus not covering the bay entrance. Which makes at least their carriers very vulnerable, whatever the shield strenght is. You'd think they'd realize this and used airlocks instead of that gaping hole covered with a weak forcefield.

unigolyn · Post by **unigolyn** » 2002-09-27 11:52pm

Well, maybe in continuity, as the ships described in the book are Kilrathi, whereas WC4 ships are either Confedarate or Border Worlds ones. So maybe the Kilrathi have better shields than the humans, but they hadn't given that tech to humans as of WC4.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-09-28 06:15am

Faram wrote:Space 1999 is the weaklings in any way shape or form! They have some funky explosives that tosses the moon out of orbit from the earth.

Worse —it was the blast of an unstable nuclear waste dump! The worst industrial accident in history.

The interstellar traveltime is wierld they can't accelerate but somhow travels betveen starsystems in weeks.

They're just lucky to find lots of random space-warps in their path, aren't they? Otherwise, they'd have turned to dust long before even getting a tenth of the way to Alpha Centauri.

Weapons are guns that is even worse than phasers both in effect and ergonomical design.

Ah yes, the laser staple-guns.

Computers are slow witout gui/command prompt of any sort just card readers.

It could have been a lot worse —if Alpha had been "upgraded" to Windows, they'd have been well and truly fucked!

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-09-28 01:41pm

Earth in the Trek 22nd century

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2002-09-29 01:50am

unigolyn wrote:
neoolong wrote:Also, I checked the book and it talks about how the humans used a landing craft against a Kilrathi carrier, this was a newly designed carrier. In order to get into the carrier bay they had to switch their transponder frequency a second before they hit the shield so that it would let them through. I don't know if the books are in the continuity of the games though.
Not in continuity, as in WC4 you can fly through enemy carrier bays at will, no transponder codes necessary. So if the shields are there, they must be very close to the hull, probably no more than a foot off the surface, and thus not covering the bay entrance. Which makes at least their carriers very vulnerable, whatever the shield strenght is. You'd think they'd realize this and used airlocks instead of that gaping hole covered with a weak forcefield.

The novels count as continuity . . . they have ALWAYS counted as continuity . . .

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-09-29 03:00am

Jules Vernes novel a trip to the moon they use a 900ft long cannon to shoot a space craft to the moon

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-09-29 01:27pm

Aside from Jules Verne and all the other steampunk stuff, we shall not forget Flash Gordon....

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2002-09-29 05:02pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:Jules Vernes novel a trip to the moon they use a 900ft long cannon to shoot a space craft to the moon

Considering the velocity that cannon has to reach (not to mention the strength of the shell and astronaut bodies) wouldn't it count more towards HIGHEST?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-09-29 11:26pm

Not really causethe ship they flew in was made opf aluminum I have never really read the book butthat seems to be low end tech to me

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-30 12:33am

Typhonis 1 wrote:Not really causethe ship they flew in was made opf aluminum I have never really read the book butthat seems to be low end tech to me

But then again the aluminum and the astronauts survived that so I'd call that impressive.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-09-30 01:48am

Well it was writen in the 1860`s

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Lowest End Sci-Fi Universe?

Glory Be to the Holy Bomb

Confusing the Mars series —Bradbury and Burroughs

Re: Confusing the Mars series —Bradbury and Burroughs

John Carter of Mars

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