Just saw an awesome Star Wars round at a debate tournament..

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-27 11:39pm

The case was "You are Luke Skywalker at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Join Darth Vader and rule the galaxy as father and son!"

It was really great to see something cool instead of the usual debates about laws and other stuff, let alone a Star Wars debate!

Favorite quote, given by side opp who was arguing that the Empire is evil and you should NOT join Vader: "I mean, honestly, they built a star of death!""

What do you guys think? Should Luke have joined the empire?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-09-28 12:18am

This is the SW equivilant of the last tempation of Christ. Of course the hero of the series won't join the devil....er I mean the Imperial's. That is the whole point of the story. The weak, redneck boy who reject's the power of the sith to do what is RIGHT.

What would be the story if he didn't reject Vader?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 12:35am

If Luke had joined Vader at Bespin, they might have been able to kill the Emperor, who knows. But if they succeded they would've pretty much ended the Galactic Civil War, if not Luke's current knowledge of the Rebellion than at the Battle of Endor. Untold billions, if not trillions, of lives would've been saved in the following decade because the Rebels wouldn't have spent years hunting down Imperial warlords. Then even billions of more lives would've been saved when the Yuuzhan Vong invaded, since the Imperials wouldn't have wasted any time smashing their fleets.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-28 12:36am

Knife wrote:This is the SW equivilant of the last tempation of Christ. Of course the hero of the series won't join the devil....er I mean the Imperial's. That is the whole point of the story. The weak, redneck boy who reject's the power of the sith to do what is RIGHT.

What would be the story if he didn't reject Vader?

Note the phrase "You are..."

This is called a time-space case. The judge literally IS Luke, and it's not a movie, it's his life.

So let's rephrase my question to clarify.

Instead of "should Luke have?" I ask "If you were Luke, would you?"

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-09-28 12:37am

On the other hand, it could've been easier for Luke to go over to the dark side. With that in mind, the Empire could've been free to continue to rule and oppress as it had always done.

It's a tradeoff of whether you want a more free life at the cost of more deaths, or vice-versa, in my opinion.

EDIT: response to DGG

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 12:44am

Shinova wrote:On the other hand, it could've been easier for Luke to go over to the dark side. With that in mind, the Empire could've been free to continue to rule and oppress as it had always done.

The average Joe would hardly care who rules the galaxy. The only ones who were really "oppressed" under Palpatine's rule were the Rebels who came out to oppose it. I'm sure the average Joe, looking back, would've much rather have been ruled over by the Empire when the Yuuzhan Vong appeared and showed no mercy when obliterating entire worlds to a degree even the Empire didn't come close to.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 12:56am

The Empire vs Rebellion issue neatly illustrates the moral conflict between principles and pragmatism.

If you go strictly by principle, the Empire is a dictatorship, therefore it is evil. Vader wants to run the galaxy as a dictatorship. Ergo, any action taken against the Empire is an action taken in favour of freedom, which is good, so Luke should not have joined Vader.

However, if you go by pragmatism, the Empire is far less destructive to its citizens than the massive galactic civil wars precipitated by the Emperor's death, the subsequent conflagration ignited by feuding warlords, and the eventual conflict with the New Republic. Ergo, Vader's offer to join with Luke and depose the Emperor was a good one. The new dictatorship would have prevented countless billions of deaths.

The problem with moral systems based exclusively on abstract principles rather than outcomes is that they can often willingly cause death and suffering in pursuit of these principles, which means that the principles are held to be more important than human life.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2003-09-28 01:20am

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with moral systems based exclusively on abstract principles rather than outcomes is that they can often willingly cause death and suffering in pursuit of these principles, which means that the principles are held to be more important than human life.

This is particularly true in this case, as Luke joining Vader would have led to a dictatorship for maybe 50 years. After that, there would be no more demigods to rule the galaxy as one, and political change would take its natural course.
I'm not sure, in the long run, whether simply out-waiting the Emperor would not have been preferable to the cataclysm that followed his death. Unless he had a plan of high-end evil (normal covering-the-land-in-darkness-forever stuff), there was no *large* negative impact on the citizenry of the Empire, no matter what those lying WEG people say.
And the Imperial military did not seem to be 100% enslaved by the Emperor, as some EU stuff suggests. Generals felt comfortable debating policy on the DS, so there is no reason to believe they would support the Emperor in any large-scale Death Star operations. I do not believe the Empire was as homogenous, faceless and inhuman as many others.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-28 01:23am

The most interesting SW scenarios are always where Luke goes to the Dark Side (shameless plug for Starcrossed and Dark Empire).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 01:24am

The use of the Death Star on Alderaan is analogous to the use of the A-bomb against Japan. Its morality is debatable to say the least, but I do find it ironic when Americans decry the Empire as unspeakably evil for deploying a WMD against a civilian target which was providing financial and logistical support to the enemy during a civil war.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 01:28am

Stark wrote:This is particularly true in this case, as Luke joining Vader would have led to a dictatorship for maybe 50 years. After that, there would be no more demigods to rule the galaxy as one, and political change would take its natural course.

It is possible that in the Emperor's death Vader could discover some of his inner-most secrets and learn about the cloning cylinders on Byss and Wayland. If they could also learn the Emperor's secret for shuttling their spirits through the Force Luke and Vader have the potential to live forever.

Even if not, they could do what Ysanne Isard did with her clone and simply update it regularly with new info, and leave in a position to rule should the original die. Not quite as good, but a viable substitute.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-09-28 01:29am

Note the phrase "You are..."

This is called a time-space case. The judge literally IS Luke, and it's not a movie, it's his life.

So let's rephrase my question to clarify.

Instead of "should Luke have?" I ask "If you were Luke, would you?"

With out the ability of 20/20 sight of afterwards....... Luke not sucumbing to the Dark side is a good thing. With out him resisting, how could the prophecy work out? With out Luke being defient, how could Vader have found something worth dying for in RotJ?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 01:30am

The YV war kind of makes it difficult to, in the long run, believe that the Empire was worse for the galaxy than the NR. The NR had been a fucking joke for years; hell, they had a traitor who tried to frame one of the greatest military heroes of the Rebel Alliance for treason as chief of state. A government like that deserves whatever fate befalls it.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-28 01:33am

Darth Wong wrote:The use of the Death Star on Alderaan is analogous to the use of the A-bomb against Japan. Its morality is debatable to say the least, but I do find it ironic when Americans decry the Empire as unspeakably evil for deploying a WMD against a civilian target which was providing financial and logistical support to the enemy during a civil war.

You're conflating the average modern American with Harry S. Truman, the President of the United States due to untimely the death of FDR, in 1945.

That read like an aside, and I'm not sure that I disagree with you, so this isn't a biggie, I'm just pointing it out.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 01:36am

I don't think Mike is wrong. Most Americans do believe that dropping the a-bomb was the right choice, I should think.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-28 01:37am

How clear is it that the Rebellion is good?

Sure they oppose the Empire, which is bad, but is the enemy of my enemy my friend?

One point that was used in the round was that the Rebellion doesn't seem (at least in the movies - the debate was sort of a layman's understanding of SW cannon) to have an articulated plan for the galaxy and it's people. They seem to be more like "Don't ask us what we're going to do, hate the Empire!" (Oooo, another parallel to modern America, but I digress.)

Does the Rebellion in fact have a plan for the galaxy after they kill the Emperor and such? Obviously they do since there's a new Republic and all, but the Old Republic pretty much went to pot.

I guess that the relevant question is: Is there any sytem in the NR to stop a "New Empire" or something from emerging?

Ronaldo · Post by **Ronaldo** » 2003-09-28 01:39am

Stark wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The problem with moral systems based exclusively on abstract principles rather than outcomes is that they can often willingly cause death and suffering in pursuit of these principles, which means that the principles are held to be more important than human life.
This is particularly true in this case, as Luke joining Vader would have led to a dictatorship for maybe 50 years. After that, there would be no more demigods to rule the galaxy as one, and political change would take its natural course.
I'm not sure, in the long run, whether simply out-waiting the Emperor would not have been preferable to the cataclysm that followed his death. Unless he had a plan of high-end evil (normal covering-the-land-in-darkness-forever stuff), there was no *large* negative impact on the citizenry of the Empire, no matter what those lying WEG people say.
And the Imperial military did not seem to be 100% enslaved by the Emperor, as some EU stuff suggests. Generals felt comfortable debating policy on the DS, so there is no reason to believe they would support the Emperor in any large-scale Death Star operations. I do not believe the Empire was as homogenous, faceless and inhuman as many others.

There are a few examples in "real" history when democracy grew out of dictatorships that ran their course. Chile under Pinochet is an example of this. I would also say that Spain under Franco went this way as well. In fact, Russia eventually turned democratic relatively peacefully after its reign of communist dictators died down. Of course there are examples when utter chaos reigned after the collapse of dictatorships. For example, when Yugoslavia broke up a series of bloody wars were fought. I would say that as long as the majority of the people can live with a comfortable amount of freedom, it would be better to have a dictatorship rather than massive amounts of bloodshed to topple him. I would definitely not include Hilter or Stalin in the ranks of benevolent dictators though. However, someone like Pinochet wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-28 01:39am

I'd say that Durran Korr answered that last question while I was typing.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 01:42am

I guess that the relevant question is: Is there any sytem in the NR to stop a "New Empire" or something from emerging?

Yes. Incompetence.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-09-28 01:42am

With out the ability of 20/20 sight of afterwards....... Luke not sucumbing to the Dark side is a good thing. With out him resisting, how could the prophecy work out? With out Luke being defient, how could Vader have found something worth dying for in RotJ?

Anything in RotJ is in the future and therefore a violation of the time-space construct.

The prophecy is a good point.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 01:51am

It's really ironic how history repeated itself. Just as Naboo was a member of the Republic and should not have been left to fend for itself when invaded, so too were the various outer rim planets that the NR refused to intervene on behalf of when the Vong invaded.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-28 02:33am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Shinova wrote:On the other hand, it could've been easier for Luke to go over to the dark side. With that in mind, the Empire could've been free to continue to rule and oppress as it had always done.
The average Joe would hardly care who rules the galaxy.

How much more Average Joe do you get then a moisture farmer on the OR? They were unhappy about all this.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 02:34am

Ender wrote:How much more Average Joe do you get then a moisture farmer on the OR? They were unhappy about all this.

Says who?

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-09-28 05:06am

Ender wrote:How much more Average Joe do you get then a moisture farmer on the OR? They were unhappy about all this.

Going by Luke's arguement with Owen, it seems more likely that Luke was more in it for the adventure and following in Bigg's step than anything else.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-09-28 10:31am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Ender wrote:How much more Average Joe do you get then a moisture farmer on the OR? They were unhappy about all this.
Says who?

Says Luke, to Obi-Wan, after Obi-Wan first asks Luke to come with him to Alderaan.