Just saw an awesome Star Wars round at a debate tournament..

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-09-28 01:29pm

Durran Korr wrote:I don't think Mike is wrong. Most Americans do believe that dropping the a-bomb was the right choice, I should think.

*Sigh* The first one was dropped on the largest remaining Army storehouse in Japan. The second was dropped on a secondary manufacturing target when the primary target was obscured by weather (and the Superfortress could not return to base carrying the weapon). Are Army storehouses and a city of engine builders and machine-gun makers civilian targets? I won't say the decision to use the bomb wasn't morally ambiguous, but there is a definite distinction between the status of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and that of Alderaan. If we had nuked Mancukuo or Korea, that would be more similar to Alderaan, as those regions were occupied by the Japanese and providing raw resources, but very little in the way of military power.

And I'm not going to reopen the whole casualty debate, I believe that's been hashed out heavily enough in N&P. Suffice it to say that I still believe the casualties and damage inflicted from the two nukes combined were less than 10% the casualties an invasion would have caused.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 03:58pm

I can tell this is a sensitive issue for you, Dark. I totally agree that dropping the bombs was the correct decision, I was just pointing out that most Americans thought so as well.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-09-28 04:21pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:Says Luke, to Obi-Wan, after Obi-Wan first asks Luke to come with him to Alderaan.

Oh that. Obi-Wan has been watching Luke and following him around for several years. Even though Owen tried to keep him away, Obi-Wan has talked to Luke before, and probably preached the evils of the Empire to him once or twice.

Plus Luke is just some dumb teenager out for excitement. He was going to join the Imperial Academy (like Biggs was, IIRC) but changed his mind when Owen and Beru were killed.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 04:34pm

In many ways that question is central to the devlopment of the character. Does Luke join the father he has always admired and worshipped? Does he respond to the betrayal by the one man that he substitited for his father - Obi Wan. (Interesting parallel there as Anakin viewed Obi Wan as a father the same as Luke did)

Or does Luke hold on to his principles? Does he even have principles? We never got a good grasp on what the rebels wanted save that they wanted to overthrow the Empire. For all we know they could have been pseudo-Commiunists (Communism and facism have historically been rabid enemies.)

For the first time Luke has to really rely on what he believes in, Does he really believe in the Rebellion's ideals (whatever they may be) or is it safer to go with his father and finally be by his side. He is promised ultimate power and the ability to be by his father's side. Or strike out on his own depsite the betrayal.

The Luke we see in the movies makes teh ultimate hero's choice, destroys his father (rejects the offer) and would rather accept self destruction than losing himself as a person as an Imperial agent.

The Luke in Starcrossed is a weaker Luke, or maybe a stronger one, he focusses on the betrayal of his friends and teachers, conveniently ignoring the fact that his own father was willing to maim him just to get him to join.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-28 04:58pm

Stravo wrote:Ordoes Luke hold on to his principles? Does he even have principles? We never got a good grasp on what the rebels wanted save that they wanted to overthrow the Empire. For all we know they could have been pseudo-Commiunists (Communism and facism have historically been rabid enemies.).

There was never any realistic probability the Rebels could be Communists. When one of their key figureheads and diplomatic figures a Princess.... Monarchists don't mix with pinkos.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 05:02pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:Ordoes Luke hold on to his principles? Does he even have principles? We never got a good grasp on what the rebels wanted save that they wanted to overthrow the Empire. For all we know they could have been pseudo-Commiunists (Communism and facism have historically been rabid enemies.).
There was never any realistic probability the Rebels could be Communists. When one of their key figureheads and diplomatic figures a Princess.... Monarchists don't mix with pinkos.

There is also a theory that they are elitists, basically composed of deposed sentors and the like whom lost theit positions and wealth with the fall of the Republic. Sort of like the Whites in Russia.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-28 06:13pm

Stravo wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:Ordoes Luke hold on to his principles? Does he even have principles? We never got a good grasp on what the rebels wanted save that they wanted to overthrow the Empire. For all we know they could have been pseudo-Commiunists (Communism and facism have historically been rabid enemies.).
There was never any realistic probability the Rebels could be Communists. When one of their key figureheads and diplomatic figures a Princess.... Monarchists don't mix with pinkos.
There is also a theory that they are elitists, basically composed of deposed sentors and the like whom lost theit positions and wealth with the fall of the Republic. Sort of like the Whites in Russia.

The real Rebels (EU inclusive) probably are run by a whole host of dispossed local elite and monarchists and even former Confederacy industrialists, and the foot soldier is probably the local patriot and militia man or little guy who got stepped on by the Empire.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-29 01:25am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Drooling Iguana wrote:Says Luke, to Obi-Wan, after Obi-Wan first asks Luke to come with him to Alderaan.
Oh that. Obi-Wan has been watching Luke and following him around for several years. Even though Owen tried to keep him away, Obi-Wan has talked to Luke before, and probably preached the evils of the Empire to him once or twice.

Plus Luke is just some dumb teenager out for excitement. He was going to join the Imperial Academy (like Biggs was, IIRC) but changed his mind when Owen and Beru were killed.

Biggs also was a moisture farmer who hated the Empire. As was some farmer in Tales from Mos Eisely Cantina.

Then you have a bunch of others like Wedge, and Hobbie, and Wes, and washisface from X-wing.

Lots of little folk didn't like the Empire.