Moderator: Thanas
LOL
Camping puts the camper at a vastly significant advantage over other people. It's not too bad until the camper takes it to an obscene level.Hotfoot wrote:What's wrong with camping, exactly?
Quake 3 InstaUnlagged Rail-only is a bit different in that aspect. When you're strafing at a running speed that outspeeds most other FPSs, it's kinda hard to hit a target even if it's stationary. And given that the stationary target as equal skill as you, he's at a great advantage.SPOOFE wrote:'Course, I say this as a person that always managed to jump around a corner and blast a camper to pieces before he managed to get a singled shot off...
If he was exploiting the map, that's one thing. It's not camping in and of itself, it's exploiting. Spawn-killing in most games tends to be pretty lame, I'll agree. Still, the initial way you describe it makes it seem like anyone who is exceptionally good at camping is bad. Whenever I play a game, if I'm beaten by someone who is just exceptionally good, it doesn't bother me overly much. If I'm beaten by someone who is blatantly using an exploit or cheat, I get pissed off.Shinova wrote:Camping puts the camper at a vastly significant advantage over other people. It's not too bad until the camper takes it to an obscene level.
Besides, the guy I'm talking about camped everything, from places where people can't see, all the way to spawn points. Mercilessly.
Definately. Like I said, spawn-killing is lame in most games, especially when done repeatedly. There's no skill involved in doing that, and really it amounts to exploiting the poor level design, the same as a camper who manages to find an invisible ledge to snipe from that can't be reached through all but the most practiced of methods.Darth Wong wrote:It depends on the level design. I remember the old days with QuakeWorld, and once being killed something like 10 times in a row by the same fucking camper at the same respawn point. I'm sure he was laughing his ass off, but that's just fucking stupid.
I like the brief invulnerability period myself, but good level design is always welcome.Some of the newer games address this through better level design and a brief period of invincibility after spawning.
No, camping is part of real-life military tactics. Computer games are generally not really meant to simulate real-life military tactics. They are meant for fun, and if excessive camping is ruining everyones' fun, then it's a perfectly good idea to ban and/or discourage it.TheFeniX wrote:Camping is part of the game.
So using valid tactics that get you kills/wins ruins people's fun? By that note we should ban anyone who:Darth Wong wrote:No, camping is part of real-life military tactics. Computer games are generally not really meant to simulate real-life military tactics. They are meant for fun, and if excessive camping is ruining everyones' fun, then it's a perfectly good idea to ban and/or discourage it.
Strawman fallacy, based on a series of completely unjustified assumptions on your part. My actual position is that in a mindless shooter, using cheap tactics that provide an incentive to hide and skulk rather than running around blasting shit ruins peoples' fun. Are you always this much of an asshole, to leap to such huge extrapolations of peoples' arguments as to completely misrepresent them?TheFeniX wrote:So using valid tactics that get you kills/wins ruins people's fun?Darth Wong wrote:No, camping is part of real-life military tactics. Computer games are generally not really meant to simulate real-life military tactics. They are meant for fun, and if excessive camping is ruining everyones' fun, then it's a perfectly good idea to ban and/or discourage it.
I'm sure you could. The fact that this has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying has obviously escaped your feeble mind.By that note we should ban anyone who:
Can pull of the shock rifle combo in UT.
Goes Onos/Heavy armor in Natural Selection.
Kills you with a leg shot with a TFC Sniper.
Uses the AWP in CS (of course, people do get kicked for this).
Does a Zerg Rush in Starcraft.
I could go on.
Bullshit. If camping is excessive and works really well (this depends on the nature of the game engine), it discourages aggressive gameplay, which in turn makes the game slow right down. If the game was intended for kinetic, aggressive, fun play and people have done this to it, then they're ruining the game.These are valid tactics used to win the game. If camping gives you an advantage, it's no different than grabbing a shield belt, or quad damage: they give you an advantage. Complaining about camping (which no game developer that I've seen has tried to actively stop) is just an excuse for dealing with a tactic you can't beat.
You just whined earlier that a server which doesn't allow camping is a piece of shit. Concession accepted.If your Quake server doesn't allow camping, that's fine.
I'd generally agree that camping becomes a problem when it affects the intended gameplay, which is a bit related to the lack of variety in these areas; a strategic FPS map meant for sneaking, sniping, and out-smarting would probably have a handful of various sniping weapons, anti-camping features and tools, and dozens of good camping/sniping spots that still provide cover and work-arounds to stop the camper. A map meant for head-on, brutal fights might only have one good sniping weapon, one or two thinsg that can 'sorta' be used aganst campers, and maybe two or three spots to camp that are usually exploitive. The first game's camping has variety and balance. The Second game's camping is a repetivie exploit of hiding spots and certain weapons.Darth Wong wrote:As I said, it depends on the game engine, level design, etc. Ideally, camping won't be so effective that it becomes a serious problem. But when a game which was intended for fairly kinetic play starts getting bogged down by excessive camping, there's nothing wrong with kicking the campers.
But like Mike said, that's what admins are for. The good CS servers I've been on will tell the last two people to both get moving if they're both just lying in wait. Or they'll kick someone who simply keeps hiding uand waiting untill their team kills all but the last enemy to come out.And yet you defining that using actual tactics that work in real life don't belong in a game where winning is the objective is ok? Camping is a valid tactic. It is not a hack/exploit/cheats/etc. No games have built in "anti-camping" scripts or anything to that effect. Yet, the act of staying in one area for an extended period of time is "cheap" and ruins the fun of the game?Darth Wong wrote:Strawman fallacy, based on a series of completely unjustified assumptions on your part.TheFeniX wrote:So using valid tactics that get you kills/wins ruins people's fun?
So now it's "cheap" to play smart? This is where this really gets to me: people claiming that anything that puts a dent into their rythm of gaming is "cheap." If the game engine allows smart playing, how is a person failing by trying to take advantage of that? If Quake is just a "mindless shooter" then why do campers have this all-mighty advantage over the average guy running around blowing shit up?My actual position is that in a mindless shooter, using cheap tactics that provide an incentive to hide and skulk rather than running around blasting shit ruins peoples' fun. Are you always this much of an asshole, to leap to such huge extrapolations of peoples' arguments as to completely misrepresent them?
Actually, it has everything to do with what you're saying. You just have been indoctrinated by online gaming to believe "camping" is on par with cheating. It's a legitimate tactic, just like everyone that's in my list. If used correctly, all of those give the other player an advantage over others players/teams. Why is camping different than someone who can pull of shock rifle combos in UT with no problems? Both give you an advantage, and both get you loads of kills if used correctly.I'm sure you could. The fact that this has nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm saying has obviously escaped your feeble mind.By that note we should ban anyone who:
Can pull of the shock rifle combo in UT.
Goes Onos/Heavy armor in Natural Selection.
Kills you with a leg shot with a TFC Sniper.
Uses the AWP in CS (of course, people do get kicked for this).
Does a Zerg Rush in Starcraft.
I could go on.
Once again, we come to the point of the failing of the other player, not the camper. I never played Quake much, but back when I gamed UT all the time, campers weren't a big issue if you knew how to deal with them. You are seriously going to tell me that people can't deal with campers without completely ruining their fun? Maybe I just don't understand the "run around aimlessly and bitch at people who use tactics" routine.Bullshit. If camping is excessive and works really well (this depends on the nature of the game engine), it discourages aggressive gameplay, which in turn makes the game slow right down. If the game was intended for kinetic, aggressive, fun play and people have done this to it, then they're ruining the game.
You seem to like to take shit out of context like you accuse me of doing. My problem was an admin not allowing camping in a mod that some classes need to camp in order to win. Whereas, a complete class isn't made useless in Quake (which doesn't have classes) by banning camping, so if all you want is a "mindless shooter" then you can have that.You just whined earlier that a server which doesn't allow camping is a piece of shit. Concession accepted.If your Quake server doesn't allow camping, that's fine.
Learn to read, asshole. I said the objective is to have fun. If you play these games to prove something to someone, that's your problem, and it's something to work out with your therapist, not me.And yet you defining that using actual tactics that work in real life don't belong in a game where winning is the objective is ok?TheFeniX wrote:Strawman fallacy, based on a series of completely unjustified assumptions on your part.
It can. Obviously, you're so fucking stupid that you simply ignore everything I say in favour of polarizing the issue to extremes. I see no reason to bother answering the rest of your argument which idiotically assumes that anytime someone stops moving, it constitutes the kind of gameplay-ruining activity I was describing. You also appear to be too fucking stupid to notice that I said the problem may or may not be intractable depending on level design and gameplay mechanics.Camping is a valid tactic. It is not a hack/exploit/cheats/etc. No games have built in "anti-camping" scripts or anything to that effect. Yet, the act of staying in one area for an extended period of time is "cheap" and ruins the fun of the game?
I'm sure you would have had a blast finding a good camping spot near a respawn point and knocking off spawners 30 times in a row in the older FPS games, then.My problem is with people who think that word "camping" is a four letter word. Then go off about how it's "cheap" and "ruins the game." It does none of this for me in either slow-paced or fast-paced games. You can go on about how games are meant for fun, but winning is fun.
You honestly think it's a matter of player skill to sit on a respawn point or find some cheapshot place to hide out in a level?Don't kick someone because you don't like their tactics. Beat them at their own game, or just admit they are better than you.
If camping gets him points, then good for him. If you don't like it, change servers.Shinova wrote:Camping puts the camper at a vastly significant advantage over other people. It's not too bad until the camper takes it to an obscene level.Hotfoot wrote:What's wrong with camping, exactly?
Besides, the guy I'm talking about camped everything, from places where people can't see, all the way to spawn points. Mercilessly.
Spawn-camping is cheap though, and should be enforced.
The problem is, it's a railgun-only server. The camper is at a much superior position than you are, who must strafe like hell, hoping to throw off the camper's aim, which almost never happens.evilcat4000 wrote:Regarding Quake 3 I do not think campers are a big threat. A static target is just asking to be hit by rocket launchers
Then design the maps better!Shinova wrote:Camping puts the camper at a vastly significant advantage over other people. It's not too bad until the camper takes it to an obscene level.Hotfoot wrote:What's wrong with camping, exactly?
Besides, the guy I'm talking about camped everything, from places where people can't see, all the way to spawn points. Mercilessly.
