The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-01 10:30pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
page 17 wrote: A trio of A-wings single-handedly destroyed the Executor, Darth Vader's personal Super Star Destroyer, at the Battle of Endor.
"The Author Would Like to Thank:
George Lucas, Steve Sansweet, Enabaran_Tain..."

*sigh* Oh well.

This merely proves that some of the EU material has a NR bias. The canon ROTJ novelization clearly contradicts this, as does Ackbar's onscreen order to concentrate all fire on the Executor prior to this "single-handed" attack by the A-wings.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-01 11:10pm

Oh, this is nice, apparently according to this idiot author, by firing it's weapons (mounted on the nose), the recoil causes a coralskipper to move forward.

Now ignoring the fact that the diagram showing the location of the dovin basal is wrong, and the fact of how they move is completely contradicted by the noevls, lets think about that:

Recoil makes you move forward.

This thing is crap. Funny quips ("We've come to reposses the planet"), but crap otherwise. Its not even original art like the cover says, some of the pics are total rehashes.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-10-01 11:25pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:"The Author Would Like to Thank:
George Lucas, Steve Sansweet, Enabaran_Tain..."

*sigh* Oh well.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-10-01 11:26pm

So what does all of this say about the careful controls Lucas film takes over the EU?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-01 11:29pm

Stravo wrote:So what does all of this say about the careful controls Lucas film takes over the EU?

He controls plot developments. He is not particularly interested in technical discussions, much like most sci-fi writers. That's one of the reasons I vociferously deny the bullshit claims of the "dialogue over visuals" people; the people who make visual movie and TV-based sci-fi like SW and ST don't give a fuck about technical ramifications of dialogue, but they do pay great attention to the way things look. The visuals are a truer representation of the creators' intentions than any technical analysis of dialogue will ever be.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-01 11:51pm

Stravo wrote:So what does all of this say about the careful controls Lucas film takes over the EU?

Well, stuff that was in the ICS is the same, so I'm not sure.

See, most of the stuff meshes with previously published EU stuff. It just ignores the problems that existed with those.

I dunno, I guess its not so much that this is bad, as much as it is that the last tech book was so damn good. I should email the guy and try to find out where he got some of those numbers.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-01 11:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:So what does all of this say about the careful controls Lucas film takes over the EU?
He controls plot developments. He is not particularly interested in technical discussions, much like most sci-fi writers. That's one of the reasons I vociferously deny the bullshit claims of the "dialogue over visuals" people; the people who make visual movie and TV-based sci-fi like SW and ST don't give a fuck about technical ramifications of dialogue, but they do pay great attention to the way things look. The visuals are a truer representation of the creators' intentions than any technical analysis of dialogue will ever be.

Which is interesting, because when I used to get into those "visuals over dialogue" debates it was argued that "the creators/animators/artists were morons and did not understand how to properly show or create an effect."" Like, say, a nuke detonation or something like that.

Usually its a flimsy excuse to say that the fans as a whole know more about the true nature of the universe than the series itself.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-01 11:59pm

Ender wrote:
Stravo wrote:So what does all of this say about the careful controls Lucas film takes over the EU?
Well, stuff that was in the ICS is the same, so I'm not sure.

See, most of the stuff meshes with previously published EU stuff. It just ignores the problems that existed with those.

I dunno, I guess its not so much that this is bad, as much as it is that the last tech book was so damn good. I should email the guy and try to find out where he got some of those numbers.

Well, you also have to consider the fact that the ICS and ITW books are published by DK while the EGs are published by Del Rey (IIRC).

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-10-02 05:44am

And also consider that the ICS and VDs are used on-set, over any other book source.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-02 02:44pm

Lord Poe wrote:And also consider that the ICS and VDs are used on-set, over any other book source.

Yeah, but their canonization has some downsides as well.

For example, Imperial class Star Destroyer is now the canon name.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-02 04:03pm

Ender wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:And also consider that the ICS and VDs are used on-set, over any other book source.
Yeah, but their canonization has some downsides as well.

For example, Imperial class Star Destroyer is now the canon name.

Hell, Super-class star destroyer was mentioned in the same source that the "11 times size of the original Star Destroyer" was. And the original ICS is more or less to blame for the 8x scaling for the Executor (that was DWR's handiwork, pure and simple.)

The NEGV&V ain't perfect, but insofar as I can see it *does* represent a measurable improvement in official materials, even with all the errors (some of which aren't really their fault, especially if the editors force the changes.)

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-10-02 04:18pm

Ender wrote:Yeah, but their canonization has some downsides as well.

For example, Imperial class Star Destroyer is now the canon name.

Who cares anymore? The guy that gave it that name (Mandel) disavows and official title to those blueprints.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-03 12:49pm

I bought the guide today, and while I like it overall, here's my rant:

You fucking incompetant artist! Can't you properly draw a fucking ISD?! It looks fucking deformed, and the Executor doesn't look any fucking better! A five-year-old could draw a better Executor with a black crayon!

And the AT-TE! Ddi you even watch the fucking movie?! The legs aren't that fucking long, you damn fool! It looks like you put it on stilts!

And now the Yuuzahn Vong have disgraced another book! Their ships look like turds in the middle of a tech journal. This asshole has definately been playing as the Tyrannids in WH40K:BFG for too long. The YV battleship looks life a sack of fat that was liposuctioned out of some obese hooker's ass. The Vangaak looks like something I left in the shitter last week! The LEgacy of Tormet looks like a flying shroom! In case you don't get my innuendo: THE YUUZAHN VONG SHIPS SUCK ASS! THEY LOOK LIKE THEY BELONG TO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCIFI SERIES!

As if that weren't bad enough, the fucker drew a picture of a winged Mon Call and passed it off as Home One! Once again: DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE, YOU FUCKING ZITHEAD?! Home One looks nothing like this, you fucking fuckity fucktard!

And the bastard can't even keep continuity with his partner! Where the TIE Interceptor is properly described as having four laser cannons, this fucking incompetant retard draws an arrow pointing to the ball on his schematic and labels two more laser cannons! YOU FUCKING BLINDFOLDED IDIOT! WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SKULL OF YOURS MADE OUT OF, TITANIUM?!

And then there's the Jade Shadow and the Imperial Landing Craft: THEY LOOK LIKE FUCKING TUB TOYS! THE LANDER HAS PRETTY LIGHTS WHERE THERE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LASER CANNONS! The Jade Shadow look like it would be more at home in Lake Erie than in deep space! Does this bonehead think it needed to be aerodynamic or what?!

Who the fuck did the art for this book?! Ian Fullwood, huh?

Ian Fullwood

And my ultimate peeve: Page after page of fucking Yuuzahn Vong and they can't even DECIDATE ONE PAGE TO THE XJ-WING! THAT'S THE ONE I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO, YOU CRACK-BRAINED, MOTHERFUCKING, ASS-KISSING, SLIMY-BRAINED RETARDS! YOU CAN'T PUT A LITTLE BLURB ABOUT IT ON THE X-WING'S PAGE! IT'S A DIFFERENT FIGHTER, THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED THE XJ-WING INSTEAD OF THE X-WING MK4! IT FUCKING DESERVES A PAGE TO ITSELF!

*sigh* I had such high hopes for this book, and while some of them were fulfilled, others were so cruelly dashed. Why must it be this way? WHY?!

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-10-03 01:45pm

Kuja wrote:...you fucking fuckity fucktard!

Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that Kuja did not care for the artwork, although I can't be sure on this.

I remember a while back, someone posted the Executor pic. It was SO bad!
I can't believe it made it to print.....
But as for the YV ships, shouldn't they look like they belong to another universe?

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-03 02:04pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe that Kuja did not care for the artwork, although I can't be sure on this.

Oh, I liked much of the artwork, but when this asstard fucked up, he did with a ten-foot dildo.

I remember a while back, someone posted the Executor pic. It was SO bad!
I can't believe it made it to print.....

You saw the smaller pic, which causes only limited damage. The full-size version is truly mind-scarring.

But as for the YV ships, shouldn't they look like they belong to another universe?

I think I should clarify this point:

1. I hate the Yuuzhan Vong.

2. The Yuuzhan Vong ships do not even resemble each other. They maintain no consistancy at all. One looks like a big asteroid. Another looks like a jumble of crystals. Another looks like a mushroom. And the rest look like shit.

3. They are shit.

4. I hate the Yuuzhan Vong.

5. The YV transport looks like something Mr. Fullwood's cat crapped out one day and he thought "Golly, I bet that would make a great ship design!" and then never put in any more thought.

6. The YV Worldship looks like a cross between a hurricane made of rock and a frisbee that got chewed on by my cousin's dog a few years ago.

7. I hate the Yuuzhan Vong.

8. The Coralskipper closely resembles a booger I sneezed out once when I had the flu.

9. I hate the Yuuzhan Vong.

10. The YV battleship resembles a drooling, pregnant Humpback Whale, only not as photogenic.

11. The YV ship names maintain no consistancy: we have the Legacy of Toment and the Sh'rip Sh'pa (I admit this is not the artist's fault, but they still piss me off).

12. Did I mention that I hate the Vuuzhan Vong?

13. The Vangaak looks so much like a beetle that it makes me want to take a flyswatter to the picture.

14. The YV Flier looks like a turd fired at high velocity.

15. I. FUCKING. HATE. THE. YUUZHAN. VONG.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-10-03 02:21pm

I feel it's our duty to study the Vong and post a giant analysis on the web detailing how not to handle an alien species that's from a completely alien enviroment.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-03 02:34pm

SirNitram wrote:I feel it's our duty to study the Vong and post a giant analysis on the web detailing how not to handle an alien species that's from a completely alien enviroment.

I feel it's our duty to pay Timothy Zahn a fat wad of cash to write another kickass trilogy with the added benefit of forever eliminating the Vong from SW continuity.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-10-03 02:57pm

Kuja wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I feel it's our duty to study the Vong and post a giant analysis on the web detailing how not to handle an alien species that's from a completely alien enviroment.
I feel it's our duty to pay Timothy Zahn a fat wad of cash to write another kickass trilogy with the added benefit of forever eliminating the Vong from SW continuity.

Yours requires money. Mine does not. I believe the benefit is clear.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-03 03:10pm

To say nothing of the fact Zahn is overrated with the same sentimentality that colors judgements of the OT. I say we let Troy Denning write the novels from this point onwards

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-03 03:13pm

IF you notice, the guide is also heavily biased more towards atmospheric vehicles, fighters, and light craft than it is to capital s hips (mostly those that show up in canon, except for a few Vong ones, the Interdictor, and the Eclipse.)

Then again we should point out this person apparently had prior SW experience only in computer/video games.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-04 12:34am

I bought the origional Essential Guide back in '96, and it had an interesting problem. The picture and diagrams for the VSD and ISDs were mismatched. Later books that I have seen on the shelf at book stores have this problem corrected. Does anybody else have something like this, or is my book a rarity?

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-04 12:41am

Connor MacLeod wrote:IF you notice, the guide is also heavily biased more towards atmospheric vehicles, fighters, and light craft than it is to capital s hips (mostly those that show up in canon, except for a few Vong ones, the Interdictor, and the Eclipse.)

Well, there haven't been that many capships added to the roster recently. I mean, we have the Republic Cruiser, the Acclamators, the DCS, and...what? Maybe a few new designs in the NJO? Not much, overall.

Then again we should point out this person apparently had prior SW experience only in computer/video games.

You are not kidding. When I read through, I kept seeing all these references to and vehicle designs from Starfighter, Jedi Starfighter, and even all three ships from Bounty Hunter! Ugh. They might as well come out and scream "BIAS AT WORK!"

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-10-04 12:52am

Capital Ships: Bothan War Cruiser, Alderaanian War Cruiser, Star Dreadnought, Star Battlecruiser, Viscount/Strident-class Star Defender, Mediator-class Battlecruiser, Alliegance-class Star Destroyer, etc.

That just scratches the iceburg.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-04 12:54am

Wicked Pilot wrote:I bought the origional Essential Guide back in '96, and it had an interesting problem. The picture and diagrams for the VSD and ISDs were mismatched. Later books that I have seen on the shelf at book stores have this problem corrected. Does anybody else have something like this, or is my book a rarity?

I have the same version. Most likely Del Rey corrected the error after the first printing.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-10-04 01:06am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Capital Ships: Bothan War Cruiser, Alderaanian War Cruiser, Star Dreadnought, Star Battlecruiser, Viscount/Strident-class Star Defender, Mediator-class Battlecruiser, Alliegance-class Star Destroyer, etc.

That just scratches the iceburg.

The Viscount is actually mentioned in the Home One bio. Not much, but it got a couple sentences.

The Allegiance deserved to be in there.

The AWC got shit for description and only appeared AFAIK in Bacta War; I wouldn't expect it to make an appearence.

In the end, Ships that show up in the movies were nearly guaranteed an appearance while EU ships only show up if they're extremely popular or the autor has a particular fondness for them (a perfect example being the Inferno, which has only showed up in a couple of comic books). I wouldn't expect an exhaustive list of NJO ships. (Although I would've liked to see the Defiant).