The Cobb County Board of Education Vs. All of Science

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Post by Joe »

State sovereignty has turned out to be a horrible implementation of a good idea. It has led to such injustices and preposterous decisions as the one this thread is about, and the Clinton administration's Defense of Marriage Act has given states the power to decide whether or not to recognize homosexual marriages.

The entirety of the Southern United States is enough of an argument for closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation. Democracy has been taken to the extent that popular vote will overturn basic civil liberties, and that's what most states don't, or refuse, to understand.
Tyranny at the state or local level can be escaped fairly easily by moving to another state. This was also another idea the Founders had. Tyranny at the federal level is much harder to escape. Closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation most likely will lead to federal tyranny; one thing that history has shown is that increased centralization does not lead to more liberty for the people.

Also, you are operating under the very false assumption that more federal law is the key to making ignorant inbred racist donkey-fuckers change their minds.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Durran Korr wrote:
State sovereignty has turned out to be a horrible implementation of a good idea. It has led to such injustices and preposterous decisions as the one this thread is about, and the Clinton administration's Defense of Marriage Act has given states the power to decide whether or not to recognize homosexual marriages.

The entirety of the Southern United States is enough of an argument for closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation. Democracy has been taken to the extent that popular vote will overturn basic civil liberties, and that's what most states don't, or refuse, to understand.
Tyranny at the state or local level can be escaped fairly easily by moving to another state. This was also another idea the Founders had. Tyranny at the federal level is much harder to escape.
Move to a different country.
Closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation most likely will lead to federal tyranny; one thing that history has shown is that increased centralization does not lead to more liberty for the people.
But regional tyranny is OK?
Also, you are operating under the very false assumption that more federal law is the key to making ignorant inbred racist donkey-fuckers change their minds.
And you think it a better idea to give unfettered control to localized power groups in regions where donkey-fuckers run rampant?
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Post by Joe »

Darth Wong wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
State sovereignty has turned out to be a horrible implementation of a good idea. It has led to such injustices and preposterous decisions as the one this thread is about, and the Clinton administration's Defense of Marriage Act has given states the power to decide whether or not to recognize homosexual marriages.

The entirety of the Southern United States is enough of an argument for closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation. Democracy has been taken to the extent that popular vote will overturn basic civil liberties, and that's what most states don't, or refuse, to understand.
Tyranny at the state or local level can be escaped fairly easily by moving to another state. This was also another idea the Founders had. Tyranny at the federal level is much harder to escape.
Move to a different country.
Moving to a different country is quite harder than moving to a different state within the same nation.
Closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation most likely will lead to federal tyranny; one thing that history has shown is that increased centralization does not lead to more liberty for the people.
But regional tyranny is OK?
Nope, but it's likely to be more minimal on a regional level (there are exceptions, of course).
Also, you are operating under the very false assumption that more federal law is the key to making ignorant inbred racist donkey-fuckers change their minds.
And you think it a better idea to give unfettered control to localized power groups in regions where donkey-fuckers run rampant?
Not unfettered. The Bill of Rights not being applied to the states, the Constitution still places several important limits on the powers of the several states.
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

I'm suprised people that dumb even got on the school board! They should be fired, and replaced with people that didn't fail science class in high school.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Durran Korr wrote:snip

Tyranny at the state or local level can be escaped fairly easily by moving to another state. This was also another idea the Founders had. Tyranny at the federal level is much harder to escape. Closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation most likely will lead to federal tyranny; one thing that history has shown is that increased centralization does not lead to more liberty for the people.
snip
Centralisation does not nesarily lead to less liberty. New Zealand and Britain are examples of this with the Westminster style sytem, albeit slightly modified in NZ's MMP electoral system as opposed to Britains First Past the Post {FPP} system.
What counts is the society you live in, the culture and the overall levels of education, remember that New Zealand has been a true democracy longer than the United States. This is because, as of 1894, all people in New Zealand had the vote regardless of gender,race or religeon, this was not true of the 'world first democracy'.
Of cource a nation is the product of its history and democracy as we know it is a very new thing, not much more than seventy years old. As I mentioned above a nations society, culture and educations standards will have a heavy influence on the nature of government.
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Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Chris Walker wrote:Mr. Bean, this hierarchical view of theories and laws is incorrect. The following two links explain the difference:
http://cs.bluffton.edu/~berger/NSC/TenMyths.html
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oc ... .Sh.r.html
They're splitting hairs. A law is a generalization about observations. However, it is a THEORY that the law will in fact predict future events.
I fail to see where Dr. Berger's article on madsci (or the McComus article which he reprints on his website) is "splitting hairs," considering that the articles in question are in regards to the philosophy of science. In the madsci article he specifically states that the distinction between law and theory generally is little-contemplated in practice, something I've generally found true in my studies - since laws and theories are both predictors, it makes little sense to the student to be overly discriminatory between the two unless you need to know the difference on an exam.

I'd suggest reading the "Ten Myths" article carefully, rather than dismissively. To *everybody* here.
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Post by Durandal »

Right, but the general theory of relativity simply moves the question to another location. Now we have space-time curvature, and we don't know what mechanism causes it. Look at Newton's laws; they create a mechanism called "gravity" to explain why objects fall to Earth and the planets revolve around the Sun, but they don't explain what causes gravity. Einstein creates space-time curvature to explain why gravity exists, but he doesn't explain what causes space-time curvature. And so on, and so on. Ultimately, if you dig deep enough, any theory or law simply gives us good curve-fits to observation; the ultimate question of "why" is a bit of a buck-passing exercise.
Indeed. My modern cosmology professor made it clear that science does not answer questions beginning with "why..." :)
Every law comes with the theory implicitly attached that it will actually work for predicting future events. A theory, on the other hand, can be based on a set of observations for which no law applies (yet).
Ah, I see; that's the part I have trouble with. Both laws and theories are capable of making predictions, but a law is just a prediction of what will happen (i.e. organisms will evolve), while a theory explains the mechanisms behind that process (i.e. organisms will evolve based on natural selection). My two examples would constitute a law of evolution and a theory of evolution.

I guess what I'm trying to say is more rhetorical/definitive. Every theory must have the same capabilities as a law, but not every law must have the same capabilities of a theory. Does that make sense?

We have a similar clause in Canada. It's called the "notwithstanding" clause (as in "notwithstanding that which is important to maintain local cultural identity"), and it allows provinces to arbitrarily disregard constitutional rights and freedoms if they think their cultural uniqueness is threatened (see Quebec's insane language laws, designed to prevent the adoption of non-French languages).
Wow, that's worse than what we have down here. Your clause explicitly states that civil liberties and federal mandates are subordinate to "cultural identity"!

The line between "power to the people" and "tyranny of the majority" has been crossed.
I'm sure certain people would accuse you and I of being the "tyrannical minority." :)
I fail to see where Dr. Berger's article on madsci (or the McComus article which he reprints on his website) is "splitting hairs," considering that the articles in question are in regards to the philosophy of science. In the madsci article he specifically states that the distinction between law and theory generally is little-contemplated in practice, something I've generally found true in my studies - since laws and theories are both predictors, it makes little sense to the student to be overly discriminatory between the two unless you need to know the difference on an exam.
There is a difference. A law does not even make an attempt to explain mechanisms behind a process. As Mike said, it's more of a buck-passing exercise, but a theory actually tells us more than a law does. You could very easily make a law of evolution, because we know that all species will evolve (that's the law), but we also know the mechanism driving that evolution (natural selection). In some senses, theories are more comprehensive than laws. It is not a trivial distinction.
Tyranny at the state or local level can be escaped fairly easily by moving to another state.


Telling people to move away from their homes in order to evade state-sponsored persecution is a completely unacceptable solution. It's the state with the problem, not the person, therefore, the state needs to change. See Alabama, which banned interracial marriages until 1999.
This was also another idea the Founders had. Tyranny at the federal level is much harder to escape. Closer federal-level scrutiny of state government legislation most likely will lead to federal tyranny; one thing that history has shown is that increased centralization does not lead to more liberty for the people.
Yes, but regional tyranny is far easier to implement. History has shown that increased centralization in a tyrannical government has led to less liberty. There is no historical precedent for a federal democracy.
Also, you are operating under the very false assumption that more federal law is the key to making ignorant inbred racist donkey-fuckers change their minds.
Who cares whether they change their minds? I only care that they don't enact bigoted, stupid laws, so yes, the federal government would be a good means to that end.
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Post by Iceberg »

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I'm not saying that there's not an effective difference between laws and theories (which would be contradicting Dr. Berger's article), I'm saying that the differences seldom interest the Freshman/Sophomore level undergrad student, unless it's going to be on the exam.

A parallel in computer science: A freshman or sophomore has little interest in solving an algorithm problem recursively, because there are very few FR/SO level problems which are easier to solve recursively than iteratively. It's only at the JR/SR level and professionally that recursion becomes an important problem-solving tool.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Iceberg wrote:Perhaps I should have been more clear. I'm not saying that there's not an effective difference between laws and theories (which would be contradicting Dr. Berger's article), I'm saying that the differences seldom interest the Freshman/Sophomore level undergrad student, unless it's going to be on the exam.

A parallel in computer science: A freshman or sophomore has little interest in solving an algorithm problem recursively, because there are very few FR/SO level problems which are easier to solve recursively than iteratively. It's only at the JR/SR level and professionally that recursion becomes an important problem-solving tool.
Then who cares? This whole sub-argument was caused by some idiot (I don't remember who) trying to denigrate evolution because it's "just a theory", and not a law. Wrangling over the precise difference between theories and laws is irrelevant insofar as all of the contrary definitions and/or "takes" on the subject concur on the fact that something need not necessarily be a law in order to be taken seriously.
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Post by Joe »

Telling people to move away from their homes in order to evade state-sponsored persecution is a completely unacceptable solution. It's the state with the problem, not the person, therefore, the state needs to change. See Alabama, which banned interracial marriages until 1999.
Of course it's the state that has the problem. I'm not saying that the states shouldn't change, I'm saying that it's against the law for the federal government to MAKE them change.
Yes, but regional tyranny is far easier to implement. History has shown that increased centralization in a tyrannical government has led to less liberty. There is no historical precedent for a federal democracy.
On the contrary. The Indian "Relocation" and the Fugitive Slave Law were quite tyrannical, and they couldn't have taken place without your much-beloved federal democracy. Increased centralization is accompanied nearly always by increased tyranny. There are very few exceptions.
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Post by Steve »

Bah, I go to the trouble to find a copy of the Constitution of the State of Georgia to make a point, and I get ignored. That sucks. :P
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Post by Steve »

Durran Korr wrote: Of course it's the state that has the problem. I'm not saying that the states shouldn't change, I'm saying that it's against the law for the federal government to MAKE them change.
So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
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Post by Joe »

Steve wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: Of course it's the state that has the problem. I'm not saying that the states shouldn't change, I'm saying that it's against the law for the federal government to MAKE them change.
So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
For strict constructionists like myself? Yes, very much so.
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Post by Steve »

Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: Of course it's the state that has the problem. I'm not saying that the states shouldn't change, I'm saying that it's against the law for the federal government to MAKE them change.
So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
For strict constructionists like myself? Yes, very much so.
Well, ain't that tough shit? 8)
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Post by Joe »

Steve wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote: So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
For strict constructionists like myself? Yes, very much so.
Well, ain't that tough shit? 8)
I suppose so.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote:Well, ain't that tough shit? 8)
I suppose so.
Gee, everyone loves it so much when arguments devolve into disputes over the exact letter and jurisdiction of the law.
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Post by Crown »

Darth Wong wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote:Well, ain't that tough shit? 8)
I suppose so.
Gee, everyone loves it so much when arguments devolve into disputes over the exact letter and jurisdiction of the law.
What you mean using the letter of the law to disprove the spirit of the law?
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The meaning of the Constitution

Post by Patrick Degan »

Durran Korr wrote:
No, they don't. At least, not in this case. See the First Amendment "establishment clause" in the US Constitution. They are establishing religion by mandating that "theories" with zero scientific merit and an obvious religious basis be taught in science class. They are violating constitutional guarantees against government establishment of religion because they're fucking morons and there are an awful lot of fucking morons in your neck of the woods who voted for them.
The establishment clause places no limits on the powers of the states to establish religion. It explicitly limits the power of Congress to do so; it is only through erroneous Constitutional interpretation by the Supreme Court over the last century that the clause has been applied to the states. There is nothing in the language of the Constitution to indicate that the establishment clause applies to the states
Sorry, but the Fourteenth Amendment says the Bill of Rights applies to states and their governments as much as to the Congress. The only "erroneous interpretation" has come from conservative ninkompoops who started off by insisting that racial segregation was a states' rights issue.
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Post by Iceberg »

Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: Of course it's the state that has the problem. I'm not saying that the states shouldn't change, I'm saying that it's against the law for the federal government to MAKE them change.
So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
For strict constructionists like myself? Yes, very much so.
I'm goin' with Steve here and saying "Tough shit." Federal law by nature supercedes State law, and Constitutional law trumps everything.
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Post by Iceberg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Perhaps I should have been more clear. I'm not saying that there's not an effective difference between laws and theories (which would be contradicting Dr. Berger's article), I'm saying that the differences seldom interest the Freshman/Sophomore level undergrad student, unless it's going to be on the exam.

A parallel in computer science: A freshman or sophomore has little interest in solving an algorithm problem recursively, because there are very few FR/SO level problems which are easier to solve recursively than iteratively. It's only at the JR/SR level and professionally that recursion becomes an important problem-solving tool.
Then who cares? This whole sub-argument was caused by some idiot (I don't remember who) trying to denigrate evolution because it's "just a theory", and not a law. Wrangling over the precise difference between theories and laws is irrelevant insofar as all of the contrary definitions and/or "takes" on the subject concur on the fact that something need not necessarily be a law in order to be taken seriously.
Which was... pretty much the point of the two articles. So yes, I don't see why we're arguing here.

I originally butted my nose in because I thought you were saying something other than what you were saying, and after reading my uncle Dan's (Dr. Berger's) article, I felt compelled to stand up for a family member whom I thought was being attacked in absentia. I admit I was incorrect, and apologize.
Last edited by Iceberg on 2002-09-29 01:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Woo.. They went and did it

And voted unaniumously to do it to...

The claping as they voted kinda sickend me in a way

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Re: The meaning of the Constitution

Post by Joe »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
No, they don't. At least, not in this case. See the First Amendment "establishment clause" in the US Constitution. They are establishing religion by mandating that "theories" with zero scientific merit and an obvious religious basis be taught in science class. They are violating constitutional guarantees against government establishment of religion because they're fucking morons and there are an awful lot of fucking morons in your neck of the woods who voted for them.
The establishment clause places no limits on the powers of the states to establish religion. It explicitly limits the power of Congress to do so; it is only through erroneous Constitutional interpretation by the Supreme Court over the last century that the clause has been applied to the states. There is nothing in the language of the Constitution to indicate that the establishment clause applies to the states
Sorry, but the Fourteenth Amendment says the Bill of Rights applies to states and their governments as much as to the Congress. The only "erroneous interpretation" has come from conservative ninkompoops who started off by insisting that racial segregation was a states' rights issue.
No, it doesn't. Read it. The belief that it does in fact apply to the states is one of the meanings that was magically discovered within the Constitution by early 20th-century justices.
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Post by Joe »

Iceberg wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Steve wrote: So the Civil Rights Act and the forced desegregation brought about by the ruling of the Supreme Court were illegal acts since they made states change their local laws?
For strict constructionists like myself? Yes, very much so.
I'm goin' with Steve here and saying "Tough shit." Federal law by nature supercedes State law, and Constitutional law trumps everything.
The Constitution does not create a mammoth national state with limitless power. It places limits on that power. While the federal government is superior within its domain, the Constitution makes it clear that the federal government is not to act outside of that domain. Violations of rights by state governments, however severe, do not justify the federal government overstepping its legal boundaries. The federal government violates its OWN supreme law, the Constitution, by doing so.
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Amendment XIV

Post by Patrick Degan »

Durran Korr wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:Sorry, but the Fourteenth Amendment says the Bill of Rights applies to states and their governments as much as to the Congress. The only "erroneous interpretation" has come from conservative ninkompoops who started off by insisting that racial segregation was a states' rights issue.
No, it doesn't. Read it. The belief that it does in fact apply to the states is one of the meanings that was magically discovered within the Constitution by early 20th-century justices.
In a word, bullshit.

AMENDMENT XIV

Section 1.1 All persons born or naturalised in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Section 1.2 No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

Section 1.3 Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Section 1.4 Nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the Equal Protection of the Laws.


Just what part of "No State shall make or enforce any law" eludes your understanding? That means states don't have the right to pass laws negating part or all of the liberties and guarantees enumerated in the Bill of Rights. They don't get to vote on the right to keep slaves or force the kiddies to convert to Shia Baptism.

There is also this:

Section 5 The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

That explicitly grants Congress the power to enforce the 14th Amendment by its own acts. There is no way around this, no matter how much the "strict constructionists" wish there were one.

You can choose to read this up, down, sideways, or in a mirror, and in any language of your choice, but the meaning will be the same one as is yielded up in plain english.
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Post by Kuja »

Last I checked, the Constitution overrides the states.
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