Future trends in firearms?

[Rubberanvil]

There will always be some large guns (there already exist 13mm semi-automatics and revolvers, allowing for rounding) designed to be sold to people who want to have the biggest gun on their block.

Iirc Reagan or Bush Sr. banned the development of pistol calibers larger than 12.7mm in the USA.

[HemlockGrey]

How exactly do hollowpoints work? Are they literally hollowed-out points filled with explosives?

[Admiral Valdemar]

How exactly do hollowpoints work? Are they literally hollowed-out points filled with explosives?

It's a round that induces pressure on the hollow tip upon impact which the fractures and fragments into numerous smaller pieces with devastating effect in the body. Not good for armour piercing, but perfect for taking down anyone without bodyarmour and in a very painful way. There are variations of the same theme, one that was proposed on British airline flights consisted of a round made from grains that could kill a person but simply shattered when not hitting flesh.

[Sea Skimmer]

Cartridge size will continue to shrink while firepower continues to inrease. Its generaly most valuable to try and fit more firepower in a smaller package. This makes the weapon lighter and allows larger magazine capacity.

No, caliber will rise if anything changes. Smaller bullets will never be effective at any range. And with the likely decline of artillery thanks to lasers, long range fire may see a major return in value.

[Sea Skimmer]

How exactly do hollowpoints work? Are they literally hollowed-out points filled with explosives?

A hollow point is inert. Basically you have a normal steel jacketed lead bullet, only with a small hole in the steel jacket at the tip, thus "Hollow point". This allows the steel jacket to break up and the lead to expand into a large flat chunk, which then also shatters as it hits flesh.

This results in a much wider damage path, and a bullet that wont penetrate the target, which is very good for police work and count terror, since you don't have to worry about your rounds punching clear through and hitting someone else. You've also got massively more stopping power.

The drawback is you have no hope of penetrating body armor, and the bullet has poor ballistics so it's got much shorter range and accuracy then ball or AP ammo.

Mind you, high velocity ball rifle ammo will also often break up as it penetrates with a similar jump in effectiveness, but most 5.56mm ammo now in military service is based off the Belgian SS 109 round, which is also NATO standard. It's highly stable, so it neither tumbles through flesh nor breaks up. Good for fighting body armor clad Soviet infantry. Bad for gunning down crazed third world fanatics.

[Sea Skimmer]

Iirc Reagan or Bush Sr. banned the development of pistol calibers larger than 12.7mm in the USA.

Sounds like BS to me, anyway common sense in gun companies bans developing such weapons.

[CmdrWilkens]

Cartridge size will continue to shrink while firepower continues to inrease. Its generaly most valuable to try and fit more firepower in a smaller package. This makes the weapon lighter and allows larger magazine capacity.

No, caliber will rise if anything changes. Smaller bullets will never be effective at any range. And with the likely decline of artillery thanks to lasers, long range fire may see a major return in value.

I somehow doubt that. The consistent trend (at least for the US and several other NATO powers) has been a definitive shift towards high precision munitions. Those long range shots will not be taken with rifles or anything using small caliber rounds. Anything past a GPMG's current range is going to be hit with laser guided mortars (already in use likely to increase in precision) air strikes or precision artillery strikes. For all the draw down in artillery support (and especially NFS) the introduction of the new XM777/LW155 which is already ongoing will mean better, more effective arty.


Anyway for small arms they are going SHORTER NOT longer. During the last several years the USMC (and several USA) units have switched from M-16A2s to M-4s almost entirely. While it doesn't shorten range all that much it shows a distinct trend towards reducing the range of engagement for small arms. Meanwhile in the engagement rang of GPMGs and HMGs the only new development on the horizon is the OCSW which has a smaller cartridge than the Mk19 (even if it does have a bigger cartridge than the M2).

Once more the trend in the next 10-20 years (30 is a little too far off for me to guess at) will be towards increased precision over increased size or any other trnd. We're going to start seeing a lot mroe integrated electronics, gps, target seeking rounds (or at least range seeking rounds like those on the OICW and OCSW) and the like. These changes in rounds do not require larger calibers or increases in power but rather a major shift towards smart individual weapons. That's the trend of the next two decades.

[Vympel]

The next generation of assault rifles will go up to something in between 6-7mm, IMO. If anything, they sure as hell won't be getting smaller.

[Sea Skimmer]

For all the draw down in artillery support (and especially NFS) the introduction of the new XM777/LW155 which is already ongoing will mean better, more effective arty.

Until our enemies begin fielding there own versions of MTHEL in ten to fifteen years. At that point artillery is going to become a lot less flexible since you've got to swamp the defenses with shellfire before you can even begin hitting the real targets.

The fact that so many of these new guided shells get there long ranges and maneuverability by flying non ballistic trajectories wont help things, since it makes the rounds much slower.

[Master of Ossus]

Could always put poison in the rounds. Assassins have used quicksilver in rifle rounds to ensure death even if the round hit nothing vital.

Such weapons are banned by the Geneva convention for military forces, however. Moreover, the mercury added to the cartridge is not to poison the target, but to cause the bullet to "explode" and fragment upon impact.

See, the bullet looks something like this:

______
/
( o
\_______

The little o represents the mercury in the round. When the bullet impacts a target, the cartridge will dramatically decrease in velocity. Meanwhile, the mercury within the round will continue forward, blowing the front part of the cartridge outwards. This will cause the tip of the round to fragment and "flower," and will usually induce additional "tumble" and hydraulic shock damage within the target.

I don't see the JHP bullets as being much more popular than they are today, but I do see a shift away from true SMG's in modern militaries, and a shift towards smaller assault rifles to replace them. The reason is obvious: with the increasing proliferation and effectiveness of personal body armor, I cannot see pistol cartridges as being nearly as effective or as accurate as intermediate and rifle rounds. Additionally, I see a shift within small arms towards having lighter-weight components, and possibly expanded magazine sizes or some system to make reloading faster and more efficient. I like the idea of having clear plastic magazines which will not rust, corrode, or warp as easily as metal ones and will give soldiers the marginal advantage of being able to examine their magazines (although probably not in the midst of a firefight) to examine how much ammunition they have left. Additionally, the use of cameras to peer around corners may be a useful, if highly limited and bulky, development within assault rifles of the future.

Other than that, I see standard reliability issues as improving for both modern and relatively primitive armies and military forces through the use of improved and less expensive materials. I understand that some progress has been made in adapting titanium to fulfill the component requirements of some aspects of firearms, and if this research is successful then I can see titanium as being incorporated into various firearms (particularly pistols). Within pistols, I see progress to be made in both stopping power and concealability, but honestly except for a few minor changes I have no idea where modern small-arms technology can be improved. It's easy to talk about how much better these systems can make firearms, but they're also going to force trade-offs within weapons design (lighter weight decreases accuracy, complicated mechanisms break down and lead to failure, additional materials tend to cause problems with components warping, etc.), and so I really don't see that there's going to be a substantial improvement in the capabilities of small arms in the foreseeable future. While marginal improvements may yet be made, I don't believe that these changes will radically improve functionality within small arms. I think we may have virtually exhausted our ability to improve firearms.

[MarkIX]

I don't see the JHP bullets as being much more popular than they are today, but I do see a shift away from true SMG's in modern militaries, and a shift towards smaller assault rifles to replace them.

AFAIK in the Australian Army Sub guns are only used for special ops when you need silence something you have trouble getting from am Assault rifle.

but most 5.56mm ammo now in military service is based off the Belgian SS 109 round, which is also NATO standard. It's highly stable, so it neither tumbles through flesh nor breaks up

the projectile of the SS109 cartridge is composed of a steel penetrator mated to a Bifurcated lead core it is designed to reliably break up.

[Sea Skimmer]

AFAIK in the Australian Army Sub guns are only used for special ops when you need silence something you have trouble getting from am Assault rifle.

That's true of many armies, though quite often at least a few SMG's are available for normal units that have a chance too reequip before entering a MOUT situation.

Most recently in Iraq the US Army and Marines where really wanting more submachine guns and shotguns for such issue, with the result that many soldiers where and are using handguns for clearing buildings and manning road blocks because even an M4 is too big.

the projectile of the SS109 cartridge is composed of a
steel penetrator mated to a Bifurcated lead core it is designed to reliably break up.

The problem is it really needs the shock of hitting armor for that to happen.

[Master of Ossus]

AFAIK in the Australian Army Sub guns are only used for special ops when you need silence something you have trouble getting from am Assault rifle.

That's true of many armies, though quite often at least a few SMG's are available for normal units that have a chance too reequip before entering a MOUT situation.

What I was actually trying to suggest was that the SMG's available to modern military forces would be replaced by comparably-sized weapons firing larger and more penetrative cartridges. You're both right in that SMG's are not used often within modern militaries, and I think that there will be a greater role for much smaller assault-rifle variants in the future, but the reasons remain the same as when I posted.

[Metrion Cascade]

On explosive antipersonnel rounds - would solid sodium work? You know, violent reaction with water, all that? And if the metal is hard enough (I don't know), you wouldn't need multiple materials to contain the explosive - the whole thing would be explosive. But IIRC, sodium is too soft. Maybe the tip and back could be lead, with a sodium "ring" around the bullet?

And what of depleted uranium for everything else? Can it be fired from smaller guns?

[Howedar]

DU is not cheap. Neither is it something you want in small arms ammunition that is going to be in constant contact with the infantry.

[MKSheppard]

The 5.56mm is a very capable round and you can put a fair amount of power behind it.

Tell that to many state hunting boards. You can't even use .223 to hunt at
all, even as hollowpoints, in many states.

[Master of Ossus]

On explosive antipersonnel rounds - would solid sodium work? You know, violent reaction with water, all that? And if the metal is hard enough (I don't know), you wouldn't need multiple materials to contain the explosive - the whole thing would be explosive. But IIRC, sodium is too soft. Maybe the tip and back could be lead, with a sodium "ring" around the bullet?

I suddenly have visions of random explosions within the magazines of various soldiers. I strongly suspect that Na would be downright dangerous for individual soldiers to transport, although I seem to remember the Chinese and Soviets experimenting with such ammunition. I would assume that they are banned by the International Treaty, since the goal is clearly to injure medical personnel attempting to treat the injury, and do inhumane damage to injured soldiers.

If, however, you wanted to get REALLY nasty with such ammunition, irrespective of cost and practicality, then the best material would doubtless be metallic Cesium. Not only does it react even more violently with water than sodium, but while doing so it forms an unbelievably powerful base that will corrode bone and flesh.

And what of depleted uranium for everything else? Can it be fired from smaller guns?

Depleted uranium is both heavy and expensive, even if you subscribe to the view that it doesn't carry potential health risks. I somewhat doubt that it would make a good anti-personnel weapon.

[MKSheppard]

It's a round that induces pressure on the hollow tip upon impact which the fractures and fragments into numerous smaller pieces with devastating effect in the body.

BS.

Hollowpoints literally unroll, and DOUBLE the size of the bullet, creating
horrific wound cavities.

Like this:



the round is streamlined during flight, which is good for hitting your
target, and once you hit the target, the round unrolls, doubling the
bullet area, and causing much more massive wounds.

[MKSheppard]

Sounds like BS to me, anyway common sense in gun companies bans developing such weapons.

Acutally he's referring to the 1968 GCA, which made anything with
a bore of over 12.7mm (.50 cal) a destructive device, and had hefty
fines...you could make a 13mm round, but it would cost $200 per bullet
in taxes

[MKSheppard]

Anyway for small arms they are going SHORTER NOT longer. During the last several years the USMC (and several USA) units have switched from M-16A2s to M-4s almost entirely.

Too bad everyone was bitching during the Iraq war about the short range
of such weapons...

The good old M-14 always somehow makes a comeback, from Afghanistan
to Iraq, in "unofficial" use.

[Chardok]

Core bonded bullets......
Whatever that implies. They look fucking MEAN

The following heads show the excellent results when shot into various media.

Left: Recovered from Blue Wilderbeest shot by American hunter.
Middle: Shot into wet pack.
Right: Shot into water test tank at 5 metres.




They USED to look something like this:

[Sea Skimmer]

I suddenly have visions of random explosions within the magazines of various soldiers. I strongly suspect that Na would be downright dangerous for individual soldiers to transport, although I seem to remember the Chinese and Soviets experimenting with such ammunition.

The soldiers won't mind, since the ammunition plant would go up like a giant string of firecrackers after about fifteen minutes. There's no way it could b produced safely in any volume, and armies buy bullets in increments of hundreds of millions and billions


As for DU ammo, we've already got a DU 7.62mm round. The density makes it good for armor piercing work, but for AP you really want something that will tumble and or break up, do something other then flying straight through. And since DU is extremely dense and strong the bullet is going to be small and wont make a wide damage path.

Core bonded bullets......
Whatever that implies. They look fucking MEAN

Its my understanding that a bonded core bullet is basically an expansion on the JHP concept, instead of just having a small depression in the nose there is a long empty tube down the middle of the round. So when it hits its unrolls as shown, but penetrates deeper then a normal JHP. So there really only useful against big game whose vital organs are behind considerable thickness of flesh.

[MarkIX]

I heard that the only advantages DU had over tungsten was self sharpening and easier machining

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm depends on how far ahead you set it and how advanced you mke the setting. Self targeting 3mm railguns firing darts at 4000 mps((meters per second)) are possible(( and old CP2020 fans will know where I got this one from)).

Smart bullets may be used(( think smart bomb only a .50 cal rifles fires em))

we may see the return of the .30 cal round but then again we may see something totaslly different.Liquid propellant rifles battery in thestock explodes the liquid for firing and the soldier can set the estimated range he wants on the rifle using the "Land Warrior"tm gear


Grenades may change as well more aerodynamic shapes for offensive grenades may happen or posibly *L8 the grenade chucker seen in Tiberian sun

[Howedar]

I heard that the only advantages DU had over tungsten was self sharpening and easier machining

You heard wrong. DU is considerably more dense as well.