Israel spanks Syria!

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-10-05 04:50pm

Newtonian Fury wrote:Arab militaries are too undisciplined, unskilled, and poorly equipped. We need the Soviet Union back to train the Arabs against these Zionist intrusions

Hehehe. It'd be a repeat performance of 1967 all over again.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-10-05 05:01pm

Meh, Isreal seems to operating with the 'Bush Doctrine' in mind. That and what will Syria do? Start an uprising in Isreal? Only thing Syria can do is appeal to the international community and its not like Isreal is in good standing with them either.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-10-05 05:08pm

Strike another blow against national sovereignty!

THis could get very nasty, at least politically.

I wonder if isreal will use this as an excuse to "annex" more territory to protect itself against "terror"

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-05 05:34pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Strike another blow against national sovereignty!

I'd love to see your reasoning behind that statement, if there is any.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-10-05 05:50pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Strike another blow against national sovereignty!

Harboring insurgents in your territory seems to make you a target. Go figure.

THis could get very nasty, at least politically.

I wonder if isreal will use this as an excuse to "annex" more territory to protect itself against "terror"

I don't see how it can get any uglier on the political front. Syria can't win a war against Isreal, and what else are they going to do? Help a uprising in Isreal?

About the only thing Syria can do is appeal to the international community and I don't think that'll get them much either. Those who support Isreal will contine to and those who don't support Isreal will continue to not do so. Basicly its an impass on that front.

I don't know how it can get any worse, politicaly.[/quote]

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-10-05 06:08pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Strike another blow against national sovereignty!
I'd love to see your reasoning behind that statement, if there is any.

They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-10-05 06:08pm

Sidenote: Generally, you ask permission to do such things.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-10-05 06:09pm

What Israel did was illegal by international law. Not that anyone will kick up a fuss about it.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-10-05 06:11pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:What Israel did was illegal by international law. Not that anyone will kick up a fuss about it.

The illegality part is what pisses me off...

Attacking territory held by another country, without their permission, is infringing on the rights of the legeitimate government of that country, to control its own territory. Hence the violation...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-05 06:15pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.

A sovereign nation has the right to make war on another. That is what Israel did.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-05 06:17pm

Attacking territory held by another country, without their permission, is infringing on the rights of the legeitimate government of that country, to control its own territory. Hence the violation...

Without their permission?!

So it's supposed to be like this ...

Israel: *taps Syria on the shoulder* Uh ...

Syria: Oh. Right. Yeah. Go ahead.

Israel: *nods curt thanks and sends out the jets*

You've got to be kidding me. The idea that national soverignty as notion alone should restrain a nation in pursuing its vested security interests is about as unrealistically idealistic as one can get. The idea that national soverignty can restrain a nation in pursuing its vested security interests is even worse a crime of logic, and I certainly hope you don't mean to suggest that either.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-10-05 06:17pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.
A sovereign nation has the right to make war on another. That is what Israel did.

Where is the formal declaration then?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-10-05 06:20pm

Aren't Israel and Syria still at war on paper? If so then Israel can bomb them when ever it pleases.

As for nobody making a fuss, the UN is holding an emergency meeting but with the US veto shield Israel will walk away clean from it.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-10-05 06:27pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.
A sovereign nation has the right to make war on another. That is what Israel did.

Was there a formal declaration? I do believe the answer to that question is a solid no.

Now, if the two countries are still at war on paper, it becomes a different matter.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-10-05 06:51pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.
A sovereign nation has the right to make war on another. That is what Israel did.
Was there a formal declaration? I do believe the answer to that question is a solid no.

Now, if the two countries are still at war on paper, it becomes a different matter.

I believe that the days of people in tux's and tophats signing formal declarations are over. Mortar rounds fired from Syria territory and insurgents operating and basing themselves in Syria is as good a declaration of war as one would need.

As a side note, hasn't Hammas and their buddies openly declared war against Isreal? The fact that they operate from Syria would put some responsibility on Syria. Again, by actions and words, Syria hasn't exactly proclaimed themselves as nuetral.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-10-05 07:00pm

Newtonian Fury wrote:Arab militaries are too undisciplined, unskilled, and poorly equipped. We need the Soviet Union back to train the Arabs against these Zionist intrusions

You do realize the while the Soviet Union was fully in power Arab Air Forces were showing their unique ability to have planes shot down in huge numbers?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-10-05 07:43pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:What Israel did was illegal by international law. Not that anyone will kick up a fuss about it.

It's not illegal in the sense that technically the Isrealis and Syrians are still in a state war with each other since 1948.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-10-05 07:46pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:What Israel did was illegal by international law. Not that anyone will kick up a fuss about it.
The illegality part is what pisses me off...

Attacking territory held by another country, without their permission, is infringing on the rights of the legeitimate government of that country, to control its own territory. Hence the violation...

However, As I said before it is legal in a sense that both Isrealis and Syrians have never signed a formal treaty to end hostilities, only a cease-fire that signed in 1948 and broke 1967 and 1973. I could make the case that the Isrealis and Syrians are still at war technically.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-05 08:19pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Now, if the two countries are still at war on paper, it becomes a different matter.

They are and have been for decades. And meanwhile Syria is still in Lebanon while Israel pulled out years ago. Interestingly the part of Lebanon that has always been most heavily garrisoned by the Syrians is a little place called the Bekaa valley, you know, the location where most of the worlds major terrorist groups trained.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-05 08:24pm

Please tell me, Alyrum, that you're simply trying to point out what you see as a technicality. You can't seriously be criticizing Israel on this issue ... can you?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-05 09:48pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
They attacked a terrorist group within the territory of another country without that nations permission. IIRC that is a violation of that countries Sovereignty.
A sovereign nation has the right to make war on another. That is what Israel did.
Was there a formal declaration? I do believe the answer to that question is a solid no.

Now, if the two countries are still at war on paper, it becomes a different matter.

As a side note, the US (under the need for formal declaration) has not been in a war since WWII. Congress (the only power that can declare war) did not vote to enter war for Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, either GWI or GWII, or Afghanistan. So, under the "formal declaration" definition of war, every military action undertaken by the United States since 1945 has been illegal under international law.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-05 11:02pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Serbia had Mig-29s also. They were all blown out of the sky when flown against the USAF. Syria's will do no better.

Well, there is the small matter of the only MiG-29s that took to the air didn't have their radars working, for which one of the officers in charge was court martialed/shot (can't remember which). Regardless, all it takes is a good pilot and proper support. You put Luftwaffe MiG-29 pilots up and they'll get kills.

Newtonian Fury · Post by **Newtonian Fury** » 2003-10-05 11:31pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize the while the Soviet Union was fully in power Arab Air Forces were showing their unique ability to have planes shot down in huge numbers?

But did the Soviets train the Arabs?

My point was that these guys need to get training from some other source since their own training program obviously is deficient.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-05 11:34pm

But did the Soviets train the Arabs?

My point was that these guys need to get training from some other source since their own training program obviously is deficient.

Yes, they did. Soviet training had its limits though; it was always laid down on the basis of existing - and piss poor - military institutions.

To its credit, Moscow improved Arab air defense and artillery support by astronomical levels. Unfortunately, that wasn't sufficient to win them anything but the opening battles of very short wars. Israel was always possessed of higher morale, a much superior officer corps, and a far better air force.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2003-10-05 11:40pm

Newtonian Fury wrote:[
But did the Soviets train the Arabs?

The Soviet Union did supply and arm and train the Arab nations hoping that they fall under thier sphere of influance (As well as premote Soviet style Socialism as seen by the Baath Party in Syria and Iraq and in the Egyptian Government). Soviet officers were sent to train the Egyptian and Syrian Militaries in the art of warfare conducted by the USSR. MiG fighters were sold to the Egyptians and Syrians. Soviet T- series tanks were sold to the Armies of the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis etc.