Hoth force-substitution... sort of...

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-09-30 12:18am

The Imperial forces are marching on Echo Base, when everything around them shimmers and warps into what appears to be Earth.

They have been taken to a point a few KM away from Tokyo-3, of Neon Genesis Evangelion lore. Believing it to be a Rebel trick, they advance on Tokyo-3, which is behind a hill. (preventing immediate LOS) They will do all they can to destroy the NERV forces.

NERV has all three Evangelion units and the Tokyo-3 defense grid. The JSSDF is off playing golf and won't intervene.

Which will win?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-09-30 12:43am

'lo U235.

Do you have any info available on this "Tokyo-3"?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-09-30 01:15am

I'm afraid I don't have any real specific numbers on the city. There are a number of weapons emplacements which feature rapid-fire missile launchers, high-power gatling guns, and vertical launch missiles. Most of the buildings in Tokyo-3 will retract, leaving only support structures for the Evangelion units that rapidly transport the Evangelions themselves and a variety of energy and munition based weaponry for them to use.

The Evangelion weapons are mostly what one would expect if man-portable assault weapons (automatic submachine guns, rocket launchers) were scaled up to several dozen times their normal size. (and redesigned to take advantage of this new size) They also have a few energy weapons (positron rifles, one of which is capable of a maximum energy output of 180 GW if they tap the total energy output of Japan) as well as a "prog knife" which has been seen to cut through jet fighters like a hot knife through butter; this is supposedly thanks to ultrasonic vibrations.

The less exotic explosive and projectile weapons are what one would expect of military technology of the year 2015.

NERV can also deploy an "N2" ("Non-Nuclear") bomb which is (IMO) roughly in the medium to high kiloton range... possibly low-megaton range if it is a bigger N2 bomb.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-09-30 01:33am

If my recollection of the Evangelion series is correct, then nothing short of the EVAs (which can be rendered ineffective if you can blow away enough umbibical cables) or N2 mines (which will probably cause more damage to Tokyo-3 than the Imperial Forces themselves can) can really cause serious harm to the AT-ATs (though AT-STs would be easy enough to take down).

Now when the Imperial Troopers get down and begin to attack the NERV base directly, they (the NERV personnel & security personnel, that is) will get slaughtered.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-30 09:09am

Yes the AT-ATs VS the Evengelicon units will be a very nasty, very short fight for the Eve units

Think Japanse troopers charging up a hill towards an MG-42 position
Six such positions

Soon as the units come into sight they have around five to eight seconds of time to live saddly, though they are fast and powerful the AT-ATs are just to strong for them..

Joe Richter · Post by **Joe Richter** » 2002-09-30 09:31am

Remember each Eva has an AT field that can easly shrug off a nuclear blast and stand about 100 meters each. An ATAT would be the same size as a smallish dog for them, one swift kick and they're on their side.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-30 09:37am

Remember each Eva has an AT field that can easly shrug off a nuclear blast and stand about 100 meters each. An ATAT would be the same size as a smallish dog for them, one swift kick and they're on their side.

Yes unfourtunatly the AT-AT mounts High Mega-low gigaton level weaponry, I've watched the Seires, 1-5 Megatons TOPS was the highest they where ever hit with

Meanwhile the At-Ats mounted 440-2,100 Megaton guns...

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-09-30 11:37am

blah, crazy warsies.

So the TL shots at hoth just penetrates the crust and go though to the core when AT-AT's fire? :rolleyes:

Joe Richter · Post by **Joe Richter** » 2002-09-30 12:07pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Meanwhile the At-Ats mounted 440-2,100 Megaton guns...

Out of interset, where is this figure derived from?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-30 02:07pm

Out of interset, where is this figure derived from?

A possible assumpition that the Power Gen did not exploded but the backwash you saw was the TL hit and melting it with the reset reflected,(Crazy idea but fun to calcuate)

That and the fact that the heavy weapons on the At-At are desgined to shoot down buildings and SHIELDED FIGHTERS in one shot

Considering the avarage X-wing has between 100-300 Megatons worth of shielding on it, thats saying somthing

Joe Richter · Post by **Joe Richter** » 2002-09-30 02:52pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Out of interset, where is this figure derived from?
A possible assumpition that the Power Gen did not exploded but the backwash you saw was the TL hit and melting it with the reset reflected,(Crazy idea but fun to calcuate)

That and the fact that the heavy weapons on the At-At are desgined to shoot down buildings and SHIELDED FIGHTERS in one shot

Considering the avarage X-wing has between 100-300 Megatons worth of shielding on it, thats saying somthing

Still, quite a lot of assumptions there with no on screen support except for the generator which could have contributed to the majority of its own explosion. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those snowspeeders survive shots from the ATATs?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-09-30 03:01pm

I have to go with Imperial forces here. Even if the ground forces are absolutely trashed, Toyko-3 is screwed when Death's Head Squadron gets pissed off and BDZ's the place.

The power of of a giant organic-robot man is no match for the Force.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-30 07:47pm

Still, quite a lot of assumptions there with no on screen support except for the generator which could have contributed to the majority of its own explosion. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those snowspeeders survive shots from the ATATs?

Thats where the Gigaton levels come from(IE High End Calcs are usasly based on completly random things)
I don't take em seriously but I was just mentioning them

The Snowspeeders however did not to my knowledge survive any head on strikes from At-At cannons and the fact was they where not Shooting at Full Power(Pumping less power through the cannon seems to let you shoot faster)

Joe Richter · Post by **Joe Richter** » 2002-10-01 06:19am

Mr Bean wrote:
The Snowspeeders however did not to my knowledge survive any head on strikes from At-At cannons and the fact was they where not Shooting at Full Power(Pumping less power through the cannon seems to let you shoot faster)

Oh dang, I guess this meens I'l have to watch ESB again. Oh, the hardship.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-10-02 02:19am

Against one of the most powerful Angel that NERV ever encountered was Ramiel (the 5th Angel, aka Flying Fortress), the JSSDF prototype "self-propelled" version of the positron rifle which fired about 180 gigawatt was required to defeat it.

Or in other words, it required about 43 tons (or 0.000043 megatons) of focused firepower to breach Ramiel's A.T. field.

Tatterdemalion · Post by **Tatterdemalion** » 2002-10-02 01:15pm

Against one of the most powerful Angel that NERV ever encountered was Ramiel (the 5th Angel, aka Flying Fortress), the JSSDF prototype "self-propelled" version of the positron rifle which fired about 180 gigawatt was required to defeat it.

Or in other words, it required about 43 tons (or 0.000043 megatons) of focused firepower to breach Ramiel's A.T. field.

Wasn't Ramiel only the fith angel? He had an unusually powerful AT field considering his placement in the order certainly, but it never gives any comparison to the later Angels, or to the Evangelions by the end of the series. (Note that this doesn't mean what you just said isn't true, just that it's too unreliable to be considered unquestionable fact.)

That said I still think Tokyo-3 will fry.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-10-03 12:22am

Tatterdemalion wrote: Wasn't Ramiel only the fith angel? He had an unusually powerful AT field considering his placement in the order certainly, but it never gives any comparison to the later Angels, or to the Evangelions by the end of the series. (Note that this doesn't mean what you just said isn't true, just that it's too unreliable to be considered unquestionable fact.)

IIRC, it was still recognised as one of the most powerful Angels NERV ever encountered in a recap from a later episode in the series. Also, it is the only time we are ever told how much energy it would take to breach an Angel's A.T. field unaided by an EVA's own A.T. field. And it is unlikely that A.T. fields' ability to shrug of damage increased by more than a magnitude at most over the entire series, remember that it was only because of energy dissipation that a weapon which seemed to be a less powerful copy of the self-propelled positron rifle couldn't breach the A.T. field of Arael (the 15th Angel).

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-03 01:21am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Tatterdemalion wrote: Wasn't Ramiel only the fith angel? He had an unusually powerful AT field considering his placement in the order certainly, but it never gives any comparison to the later Angels, or to the Evangelions by the end of the series. (Note that this doesn't mean what you just said isn't true, just that it's too unreliable to be considered unquestionable fact.)
IIRC, it was still recognised as one of the most powerful Angels NERV ever encountered in a recap from a later episode in the series. Also, it is the only time we are ever told how much energy it would take to breach an Angel's A.T. field unaided by an EVA's own A.T. field. And it is unlikely that A.T. fields' ability to shrug of damage increased by more than a magnitude at most over the entire series, remember that it was only because of energy dissipation that a weapon which seemed to be a less powerful copy of the self-propelled positron rifle couldn't breach the A.T. field of Arael (the 15th Angel).

If by energy dissipation, you mean that it was out of range (outer space) then you are correct. But as far as I remember, it wasn't even that they couldn't breach the A.T... the shot actually didn't reach the target at all, describing a parabole.

About Ramiel being one of the most powerful, I agree. There's no indication in the series that the power of the Angels is placed in a scale from lowest to highest (1st being the weakest and 15th being the strongest). The last Angel was a boy whose head was removed by an EVA's thumb, wasn't it?

Is the gun called a Positron or a Pulsitron rifle? I've read references to a Pulsitron Rifle, basically an ion cannon. It's the same gun actually, but which is correct...

I've read it's got about 185,000 KILOwatts. That's, like, 185 MEGAwatts? not GIGAwatts... I might be wrong. I have been known to be mistaken at times

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-10-03 04:14am

Slartibartfast wrote: If by energy dissipation, you mean that it was out of range (outer space) then you are correct. But as far as I remember, it wasn't even that they couldn't breach the A.T... the shot actually didn't reach the target at all, describing a parabole.

I had recalled that scene as the shot hitting the A.T. field and then splitting into about eight parts which kept going around the Arael's A.T. field, which prompted the Angel to mind-rape Asuka... but it has been a while since I last watched that episode, and since I can't be bothered getting the video out and watching...

About Ramiel being one of the most powerful, I agree. There's no indication in the series that the power of the Angels is placed in a scale from lowest to highest (1st being the weakest and 15th being the strongest). The last Angel was a boy whose head was removed by an EVA's thumb, wasn't it?

About Kaworu/Tabris, he did drop his A.T. field and let Shinji kill him. But for the other Angels and their A.T. field, some of the weakest Angels ever were the ones that came after Ramiel.

Is the gun called a Positron or a Pulsitron rifle? I've read references to a Pulsitron Rifle, basically an ion cannon. It's the same gun actually, but which is correct...

Going by the notes from the inside of the EVA videos' dust jackets, it's positron.

I've read it's got about 185,000 KILOwatts. That's, like, 185 MEGAwatts? not GIGAwatts... I might be wrong. I have been known to be mistaken at times

Also from to the dust jackets, 180 gigawatts. And I have trouble beliving that the weapon that needed to drain Japan of electricity to fire was only equal to about 43 kilograms of TNT.

Joe Richter · Post by **Joe Richter** » 2002-10-03 07:35pm

Right, a few things.

I have just re-watched the episode and noted that the beam from the angel that failed to penetrate EVA 1's chestplate after 5-6seconds of continuous fire was enough to COMPLETELY slag a skyscraper taller than Unit 1 (Which is over 100 meters I believe?).I've got to get up for work tomorow in 5 hours so I can't find it in me to work out the ammount of energy needed to do this but if anyone else wants to feel free. If not then I might give it a go tomorow.

I can confirm that the gun used was a positron rifle or

"Positron rifle for EVA-Prototype 20 Circumference Acceleration Type"

as it was captioned. Now, positrons are anti-electrons so it seems that they were playing around with anti-matter with this gun. Notice the "Circumference Acceleration "? That sounds awfully like a torus shaped magnetic containment battle used to store plasma and anti-matter. The gun is also atributed an accelerator. At a guess, I would say that they are using a linear accelerator to accelerate a beam of gasseous anti-matter at relitivistic velocities, probably as a plasma. It this respect, the majority of the weapons potency would come not from the relitively low power input from Japan but but from the inherrent energy of the munition itself, namely superheated antimatter impacting on matter. Further proof that the beam is particulate instead of electromagnetic is found in the following quote forn the episode.

"Requires an exceptionaly high degree of precision, Since the positron beam will be influenced by the earths gravity, magnetic fields and rotation, it will not fire in a streight line."

Another point to note is contained in the following quote from the episode in question.

"instead of trying to nutralise the targets AT field, I believe a pinpoint shot with a focused high energy beam is the only way"

Notice she seems to be implying that a focused enough beam will BYPASS the AT field and will instead impact directly on the angels surface. because of this I don't believe any upper limits for an AT field can be derived from this.

taking all the above into concideration, I believe it is possible to reconcile the fact that a weapon that seems to be woefully underpowered was used to take out an angel that was demonstrably more powerfull than an EVA withe the knowledge that an EVAs AT field will protect it from a point blank (or should that be ground zero?) nuclear explosion.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-10-04 01:10am

Joe Richter wrote: I have just re-watched the episode and noted that the beam from the angel that failed to penetrate EVA 1's chestplate after 5-6seconds of continuous fire was enough to COMPLETELY slag a skyscraper taller than Unit 1 (Which is over 100 meters I believe?).I've got to get up for work tomorow in 5 hours so I can't find it in me to work out the ammount of energy needed to do this but if anyone else wants to feel free. If not then I might give it a go tomorow.

I haven't done any actual math on this, I think that to slag a mostly hollow structure would require much less than 43 tons of TNT.

"instead of trying to nutralise the targets AT field, I believe a pinpoint shot with a focused high energy beam is the only way"

Notice she seems to be implying that a focused enough beam will BYPASS the AT field and will instead impact directly on the angels surface. because of this I don't believe any upper limits for an AT field can be derived from this.

Actually, the act of "neutralising" an A.T. field is using one A.T. field to go into the same wavepattern as the target A.T. field, which was impossible in that case because any threat that came close enough to do that was automatically smack-downed.

taking all the above into concideration, I believe it is possible to reconcile the fact that a weapon that seems to be woefully underpowered was used to take out an angel that was demonstrably more powerfull than an EVA withe the knowledge that an EVAs AT field will protect it from a point blank (or should that be ground zero?) nuclear explosion.

I find it hard to believe that the positron rifle is suppose to be some sort of anti-matter production and delivery system, if it was you'd expect a lot more going on than burning a hole and a fairly small explosion in the far side of the metal cube. And N2 mines are not nuclear weapon level, they just happen to be the most powerful non-nuclear weapon in existance.

Personally, I suspect that the positron rifle is suppose to be an adaptation of the Angels' particle beam weapon, and that A.T. fields can handle a spread of energy from an explosive weapon better than they can handle a focused beam of charged particles.