Darth Vader inside a Cube

[Metrion Cascade]

EM radiation is pure energy - massless photons.

But photons do create light preassure. That is how lasers beams can push around foils. The same goes for solar sails. So how is EM radiation pure energy ?

I'm not going to explain the fact that photons are massless if you don't already understand that. Their energy is imparted to matter in kinetic form on impact with matter (electrons). This does not require them to have mass.

[Chardok]

Hope this answers your questions.

[Kuja]

You seem to have missed the part where HOWEDAR ALREADY PROVED THAT THE LIGHTSABER WOULD WORK, DUMBSHIT. And yes, you do have to prove an upper limit for Borg shields, and then demonstrate that a lightsaber can exceed it. Which Howedar already did, and you aren't even trying to do.

Y'know, once, just once, I'd like to see you toss up some evidence instead of screeching about the invulnerability of borg drones and trying to force me to take up both sides of the argument. A Clone Wars-era rifle can toss out 8MJ per shot, and IIRC, has a firing rate of once per second. Did the 10MJ gun match this?

By the way, good job on snipping the rest of my argument. It's tough getting your mind to accept that an unarmed drone is more vulnerable than a armed one, isn't it?

[Metrion Cascade]

You seem to have missed the part where HOWEDAR ALREADY PROVED THAT THE LIGHTSABER WOULD WORK, DUMBSHIT. And yes, you do have to prove an upper limit for Borg shields, and then demonstrate that a lightsaber can exceed it. Which Howedar already did, and you aren't even trying to do.

Y'know, once, just once, I'd like to see you toss up some evidence instead of screeching about the invulnerability of borg drones and trying to force me to take up both sides of the argument. A Clone Wars-era rifle can toss out 8MJ per shot, and IIRC, has a firing rate of once per second. Did the 10MJ gun match this?

Obviously 10MJ is more than 8MJ. But no timeframe was given for how long it took for the phase pistol to deliver those 10MJ - whether it was a second or half a second or ten seconds. And in another strawman, you're saying that I presented drones as invulnerable. On the contrary, I've already stated that they're not for several reasons. They can be tossed around by the Force. Their shields can only block massless energy weapons or very little mass if any. They can't raise their shields without knowing the modulation of the weapon being used. And once those shields are up, Howedar has already proven that a lightsaber will breach them. So...what point are you trying to make now? That drone shields aren't invulnerable? I never said they are.

I said (correctly) that their upper limit for pure energy absorption was that they must be less powerful than cubes, and you said I was saying there was no limit. No. I said there was a limit, and it was that drone shields<cube shields.

By the way, good job on snipping the rest of my argument. It's tough getting your mind to accept that an unarmed drone is more vulnerable than a armed one, isn't it?

Nice strawman. I never said unarmed drones aren't less vulnerable than armed ones. I said that in terms of distance weapons, they're all unarmed. Meaning there's no point in comparing one kind (unarmed) to another kind that DOESN'T EXIST (armed).

[Kuja]

Obviously 10MJ is more than 8MJ. But no timeframe was given for how long it took for the phase pistol to deliver those 10MJ - whether it was a second or half a second or ten seconds.

All right.

And in another strawman, you're saying that I presented drones as invulnerable.

I see that hyperbole is beyond your pale of understanding.

On the contrary, I've already stated that they're not for several reasons. They can be tossed around by the Force. Their shields can only block massless energy weapons or very little mass if any. They can't raise their shields without knowing the modulation of the weapon being used. And once those shields are up, Howedar has already proven that a lightsaber will breach them. So...what point are you trying to make now? That drone shields aren't invulnerable? I never said they are.

I said (correctly) that their upper limit for pure energy absorption was that they must be less powerful than cubes, and you said I was saying there was no limit. No. I said there was a limit, and it was that drone shields<cube shields.

All right.

By the way, good job on snipping the rest of my argument. It's tough getting your mind to accept that an unarmed drone is more vulnerable than a armed one, isn't it?

Nice strawman. I never said unarmed drones aren't less vulnerable than armed ones.

No, you simply dismissed my argument where I pointed out that fact as 'strawman bullshit'.

I said that in terms of distance weapons, they're all unarmed. Meaning there's no point in comparing one kind (unarmed) to another kind that DOESN'T EXIST (armed).

You said that "run of the mill" drones were unarmed, and I was under the impression that there were some drones that were. My mistake.

But this is even better. Now, instead of having a comparative few armed, there are NONE. A modern-day force would rip through a borg cube like one of the plagues of Egypt, provided they are equipped with enough ammunition.

[Darth Wong]

Sure we have; they are pierced whenever they are not "adapted", which means that their energy absorption ability is not too far off the power level of the beam in question. If their shields were vastly stronger than the beam, no "adaptation" would be necessary.

Pierced shields are still visible, which they never are when drones are killed by a phaser hit. Drones don't raise their shields at all until they've adapted - they literally can't block anything they've never been hit by. That's just how bad Borg drone shields are. That or their judgment if they're deliberately sacrificing drones just to study enemy weapons.

No, we've been inside a Borg cube when it was attacked, and found that their "adaptation" was a matter of optimizing geometry (or at least, that's what "triaxialating" sounds like). It's more likely that their shields simply don't look like anything until they can optimize them for the attacker's weapon. If their shields are strong enough to block the weapon without optimization, it would take momentous idiocy to keep them down just so they learn enough to perform this (unnecessary) optimization.

Those can be chalked up to muscle reactions (excepting the one on the Genesis planet, which has never been repeated and which might be chalked up to the weird behaviour of that particular place). Real people often display exaggerated reactions when shot even though the momentum of the bullet is small and not even entirely transferred.

People being knocked backwards off their feet is a muscle reaction?

Since the person firing the weapon was not knocked backwards off his feet, it's not a straight transfer of momentum. And quite frankly, since the stuntmen usually do use their own muscles to jerk and leap backwards when being hit, video clips should support what I'm saying. There isn't enough momentum in the phaser shot to actually throw someone off his feet.

A 700-metre (let me check, but I think inorganic) GCS lurching from side to side is a muscle reaction?

Show me a video clip of a GCS actually lurching from a hit, as opposed to internal shaking which can be induced by as little as 2.1MJ and probably involves their internal systems screwing up. Besides, this is a red-herring and has nothing to do with hand weapons, since the energy levels involved are presumably much higher. This is a matter of quantities, not on/off comparisons.

A weapon that imparts enough molecular kinetic energy (heat) to ingnite some materials and cause others to explode can't also somehow impart kinetic energy on a macroscopic scale?

Not enough to compare to a physical impact in this case.

Not to say the beam itself has kinetic energy, but that it somehow (perhaps by means similar to a magnet or electrostatic forcefield) generates it on impact with people and shields.

Do not confuse transfer of momentum or application of force with kinetic energy. A lightsabre can apply force; this is different from kinetic energy.

Borg shields apparently absorb the beam before any of it can "convert" to kinetic energy.

I suggest a basic study of Newtonian kinematics. A beam does not "convert" into kinetic energy; it can only apply force, and the force in this case is inconsequential.

Certainly massless particles have been observed imparting kinetic energy in real life, at least at the molecular level (sunlight and lasers heating things). And in sci-fi, they can also apparently push "solar sails," a technology seriously being investigated IRL. I have also seen smaller macroscopic examples of this - those bell-jarred silvery pinwheels that turn when exposed to bright light.

Light momentum is miniscule (U/c), and none of this proves your claim that phasers can strike a target with sufficient force to be comparable to a lightsabre. Qualitative analysis is a piss-poor substitute for quantitative analysis. That's the difference between idiotic pseudoscience bullshit like Q-ray bracelets and real science; the pseudoscientists take a miniscule effect and completely ignore its magnitude in order to pretend that it can perform arbitrary feats. This is why scientists and engineers like to use numbers.

There is no such thing as "pure kinetic energy". Kinetic energy is a property of matter.

In which case lightsabre blades can't have any at all, since they are "pure energy" according to YT300000 (he says this is canon, and I'm not enough of a Warsie to refute this one), and therefore only generate KE on contact.

I wasn't talking about kinetic energy, dumb-ass! I said that a lightsabre can apply force! Don't you even know the difference between the two concepts?

A lightsabre blade carries no kinetic energy, but it can impart as much force to its target as its Jedi wielder can generate: FAR more than a beam from a hand phaser which can be fired one-handed by an ordinary person with little appreciable recoil, and far more than an elbow or rifle butt thrown by a normal human.

[Slartibartfast]

In other words, when it comes to kinetic whatever or force, the lightsaber has no more kinetic energy than a steel pipe.

[Chardok]

/agree slarti


as an aside (Which was the real reason for this pot. Slarti- is that the Wishmaster? that's one scary freaking av....

[Ghost Rider]

/agree slarti


as an aside (Which was the real reason for this pot. Slarti- is that the Wishmaster? that's one scary freaking av....

It's the Nameless One from Planescape: Torment(A PC RPG).

As for this...so what's the new yapping?

Lightsabers can be frequency blocked?!

[Metrion Cascade]

I said that in terms of distance weapons, they're all unarmed. Meaning there's no point in comparing one kind (unarmed) to another kind that DOESN'T EXIST (armed).

You said that "run of the mill" drones were unarmed, and I was under the impression that there were some drones that were. My mistake.

But this is even better. Now, instead of having a comparative few armed, there are NONE. A modern-day force would rip through a borg cube like one of the plagues of Egypt, provided they are equipped with enough ammunition.

Actually a modern-day ten year old with an Uzi would rip through them. The Mafia exceeded Borg (and Starfleet) close-quarters prowess eighty years ago. Pathetic, isn't it?

[Metrion Cascade]

Sure we have; they are pierced whenever they are not "adapted", which means that their energy absorption ability is not too far off the power level of the beam in question. If their shields were vastly stronger than the beam, no "adaptation" would be necessary.

Pierced shields are still visible, which they never are when drones are killed by a phaser hit. Drones don't raise their shields at all until they've adapted - they literally can't block anything they've never been hit by. That's just how bad Borg drone shields are. That or their judgment if they're deliberately sacrificing drones just to study enemy weapons.

No, we've been inside a Borg cube when it was attacked, and found that their "adaptation" was a matter of optimizing geometry (or at least, that's what "triaxialating" sounds like). It's more likely that their shields simply don't look like anything until they can optimize them for the attacker's weapon. If their shields are strong enough to block the weapon without optimization, it would take momentous idiocy to keep them down just so they learn enough to perform this (unnecessary) optimization.

What episode showed a cube's shields lighting up at all? And I'm saying the drone shields' strength can't be applied without the optimization - that they only have ONE means of blocking phasers, and that means depends on the optimization. Without it, the strength of the shield is as irrelevant as the strength of a wall "phased" Geordi wants to run through, because it doesn't interact with the beam at all without the phase match.

Those can be chalked up to muscle reactions (excepting the one on the Genesis planet, which has never been repeated and which might be chalked up to the weird behaviour of that particular place). Real people often display exaggerated reactions when shot even though the momentum of the bullet is small and not even entirely transferred.

People being knocked backwards off their feet is a muscle reaction?

Since the person firing the weapon was not knocked backwards off his feet, it's not a straight transfer of momentum. And quite frankly, since the stuntmen usually do use their own muscles to jerk and leap backwards when being hit, video clips should support what I'm saying. There isn't enough momentum in the phaser shot to actually throw someone off his feet.

We'd have to see some making-of bits to confirm this. I've never seen stuntmen jump back when "hit," but I have seen them yanked backwards by ropes. And I'm not saying it's a direct transfer of momentum. I'm saying the beam's massless particles somehow generate force on impact.

A 700-metre (let me check, but I think inorganic) GCS lurching from side to side is a muscle reaction?

Show me a video clip of a GCS actually lurching from a hit, as opposed to internal shaking which can be induced by as little as 2.1MJ and probably involves their internal systems screwing up. Besides, this is a red-herring and has nothing to do with hand weapons, since the energy levels involved are presumably much higher. This is a matter of quantities, not on/off comparisons.

I find it far simpler that a weapon is generating kinetic energy than that every single hit causes the same internal malfunction (and what sort of malfunction would that be?). And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

A weapon that imparts enough molecular kinetic energy (heat) to ingnite some materials and cause others to explode can't also somehow impart kinetic energy on a macroscopic scale?

Not enough to compare to a physical impact in this case.

Not to say the beam itself has kinetic energy, but that it somehow (perhaps by means similar to a magnet or electrostatic forcefield) generates it on impact with people and shields.

Do not confuse transfer of momentum or application of force with kinetic energy. A lightsabre can apply force; this is different from kinetic energy.

Borg shields apparently absorb the beam before any of it can "convert" to kinetic energy.

I suggest a basic study of Newtonian kinematics. A beam does not "convert" into kinetic energy; it can only apply force, and the force in this case is inconsequential.

Yes, light that isn't reflected by a material is directly converted into (primarily molecular) kinetic energy. A photon hitting an electron is converted to kinetic energy, which the electron gains. Phaser hits are at least partially converted into kinetic energy - if not macroscopically (I'll address that), they do heat objects, in some cases enough to cause explosions.

Certainly massless particles have been observed imparting kinetic energy in real life, at least at the molecular level (sunlight and lasers heating things). And in sci-fi, they can also apparently push "solar sails," a technology seriously being investigated IRL. I have also seen smaller macroscopic examples of this - those bell-jarred silvery pinwheels that turn when exposed to bright light.

Light momentum is miniscule (U/c), and none of this proves your claim that phasers can strike a target with sufficient force to be comparable to a lightsabre. Qualitative analysis is a piss-poor substitute for quantitative analysis. That's the difference between idiotic pseudoscience bullshit like Q-ray bracelets and real science; the pseudoscientists take a miniscule effect and completely ignore its magnitude in order to pretend that it can perform arbitrary feats. This is why scientists and engineers like to use numbers.

It is a valid example of pure radiant energy being converted to KE. I'm not saying light can do the same thing on a larger scale, but we're not talking solely about light. We're talking about whatever massless particles compose phaser beams. And we DO see these beams impart macroscopic levels of KE in some fashions (rock goes boom). The question being whether they can impart macroscopic amounts of KE along the beam's path. And there's the problem...fictional particles like nadions that we can't prove work this way or that. My interpretation of the fiction is that Trek physics include particles that can do what real light occasionally does to the pinwheel, but on a larger scale. As the particles themselves are not part of real-world physics, this "force on impact" phenomenon may be one of their fictional properties. I'm saying that if it is, it is not without parallel in real life.

There is no such thing as "pure kinetic energy". Kinetic energy is a property of matter.

In which case lightsabre blades can't have any at all, since they are "pure energy" according to YT300000 (he says this is canon, and I'm not enough of a Warsie to refute this one), and therefore only generate KE on contact.

I wasn't talking about kinetic energy, dumb-ass! I said that a lightsabre can apply force! Don't you even know the difference between the two concepts?

A lightsabre blade carries no kinetic energy, but it can impart as much force to its target as its Jedi wielder can generate: FAR more than a beam from a hand phaser which can be fired one-handed by an ordinary person with little appreciable recoil, and far more than an elbow or rifle butt thrown by a normal human.

Yes, but the blade has to be in contact with another lightsabre blade. Meaning the force is a field force that only two blades can exert against each other (analogy - two magnets can push each other's fields, but neither of them can push wood or plastic). Is there any example of a lightsabre blade exerting force against something other than another blade, as opposed to heating it or overloading another energy construct (like a forcefield) by release of radiant energy?

And if my assertion that beams don't carry KE but can generate force on impact is correct, this could explain why the weapon has no recoil. No force is present beforehand. The phaser transmits energy in one form, which is converted to other forms on impact with matter/shields.

I'm not sure what the point of this is...even if the sabre can exert force against anything besides other sabres, this wouldn't happen with Borg shields. They'd overload and collapse on contact before they got the chance to demonstrate any force-exertion ability, and Vader wins even if you're wrong.

[Darth Wong]

What episode showed a cube's shields lighting up at all? And I'm saying the drone shields' strength can't be applied without the optimization - that they only have ONE means of blocking phasers, and that means depends on the optimization. Without it, the strength of the shield is as irrelevant as the strength of a wall "phased" Geordi wants to run through, because it doesn't interact with the beam at all without the phase match.

Which only proves (once again) that they must not be capable of generating strong shields. Otherwise, they wouldn't need this clumsy method.

We'd have to see some making-of bits to confirm this. I've never seen stuntmen jump back when "hit," but I have seen them yanked backwards by ropes. And I'm not saying it's a direct transfer of momentum. I'm saying the beam's massless particles somehow generate force on impact.

Only if they vapourize material which creates a rocketry effect. That is entirely possible, but it would be irrelevant upon contact with shields, which is what we're talking about in case you'd forgotten.

I find it far simpler that a weapon is generating kinetic energy than that every single hit causes the same internal malfunction (and what sort of malfunction would that be?).

Inertial dampers.

And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Yes, light that isn't reflected by a material is directly converted into (primarily molecular) kinetic energy.

That is known as "internal energy", aka heating. The term "kinetic energy" is normally applied only on the macroscopic scale, except when we happen to be discussing molecular processes. Since we are talking about decidedly macroscopic Borg drones, this is mere sophistry on your part.

A lightsabre blade carries no kinetic energy, but it can impart as much force to its target as its Jedi wielder can generate: FAR more than a beam from a hand phaser which can be fired one-handed by an ordinary person with little appreciable recoil, and far more than an elbow or rifle butt thrown by a normal human.

Yes, but the blade has to be in contact with another lightsabre blade. Meaning the force is a field force that only two blades can exert against each other (analogy - two magnets can push each other's fields, but neither of them can push wood or plastic).

Irrelevant.

I hate to continually remind you of this, but we're talking about Borg drones. Not starships, and not unshielded objects, and not other lightsabres, but Borg drones. If a Borg drone's shields interact with the lightsabre, then the Jedi will be able to apply force through that interaction. If a Borg drone's shields do not interact with lightsabres, then the lightsabre will pass cleanly through and slice the drone in half. Either way, the drone cannot defend against the lightsabre.

Is there any example of a lightsabre blade exerting force against something other than another blade, as opposed to heating it or overloading another energy construct (like a forcefield) by release of radiant energy?

If it stops the lightsabre blade, then it must exert force against it.

And if my assertion that beams don't carry KE but can generate force on impact is correct, this could explain why the weapon has no recoil. No force is present beforehand. The phaser transmits energy in one form, which is converted to other forms on impact with matter/shields.

If the beam has no appreciable momentum, then it will not generate force unless it vapourizes something on the target: not easily done if the target is shielded, unless the shield is physical.

I'm not sure what the point of this is...even if the sabre can exert force against anything besides other sabres, this wouldn't happen with Borg shields. They'd overload and collapse on contact before they got the chance to demonstrate any force-exertion ability, and Vader wins even if you're wrong.

Of course Vader wins. But what I'm saying is that your attacks on Kuja for saying that he doesn't need to prove energy handling limits is wrong, because the Borg shield will either be totally useless against a lightsabre or it will transmit force from the Jedi to the Borg. Either way, the Jedi wins even if the Borg drone's shield energy handling is increased a hundredfold.

[Slartibartfast]

/agree slarti


as an aside (Which was the real reason for this pot. Slarti- is that the Wishmaster? that's one scary freaking av....

It's the Nameless One from Planescape: Torment(A PC RPG).

Also known as game director Guido Henkel.

[Metrion Cascade]

What episode showed a cube's shields lighting up at all? And I'm saying the drone shields' strength can't be applied without the optimization - that they only have ONE means of blocking phasers, and that means depends on the optimization. Without it, the strength of the shield is as irrelevant as the strength of a wall "phased" Geordi wants to run through, because it doesn't interact with the beam at all without the phase match.

Which only proves (once again) that they must not be capable of generating strong shields. Otherwise, they wouldn't need this clumsy method.

Obviously the shields are "strong" relative to phasers (and not much else), but they have to be phase-matched. Unlike conventional shields, they rely on the nature of the phaser beam and can only absorb its phased portion, leaving the rest to be radiated omnidirectionally as (presumably heat and) light. This is why they can't stop knives or Data - they only interact with phased energy. They don't fail in the face of physical force - they're not even in its way. If Vader swings at phased shields, his lightsabre's force doesn't overcome them because it never even hits them. It simply goes "around" them. And yes, Borg methods are clumsy.

We'd have to see some making-of bits to confirm this. I've never seen stuntmen jump back when "hit," but I have seen them yanked backwards by ropes. And I'm not saying it's a direct transfer of momentum. I'm saying the beam's massless particles somehow generate force on impact.

Only if they vapourize material which creates a rocketry effect. That is entirely possible, but it would be irrelevant upon contact with shields, which is what we're talking about in case you'd forgotten.

I find it far simpler that a weapon is generating kinetic energy than that every single hit causes the same internal malfunction (and what sort of malfunction would that be?).

Inertial dampers.

Why would a failure in the inertial dampers cause sudden motion every time, and only last a few seconds? Why would this same internal failure happen every single time any ship is hit with virtually any weapon, and even when no other damage is done - is the IDF part of the shield grid? How is damage to internal systems done even when the shields aren't pierced? And why doesn't it result in the deaths of the crew when the ship changes course or goes to warp - how is it that the IDF instantly resumes functioning perfectly as soon as the weapons fire stops? Wouldn't some repairs or at least a thorough diagnostic be in order before the IDF was relied on again?

And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Yes, light that isn't reflected by a material is directly converted into (primarily molecular) kinetic energy.

That is known as "internal energy", aka heating. The term "kinetic energy" is normally applied only on the macroscopic scale, except when we happen to be discussing molecular processes. Since we are talking about decidedly macroscopic Borg drones, this is mere sophistry on your part.

Temperature (noun): the measure of the average molecular kinetic energy of a substance. A microscopic phenomenon with macroscopic effects.

A lightsabre blade carries no kinetic energy, but it can impart as much force to its target as its Jedi wielder can generate: FAR more than a beam from a hand phaser which can be fired one-handed by an ordinary person with little appreciable recoil, and far more than an elbow or rifle butt thrown by a normal human.

Yes, but the blade has to be in contact with another lightsabre blade. Meaning the force is a field force that only two blades can exert against each other (analogy - two magnets can push each other's fields, but neither of them can push wood or plastic).

Irrelevant.

I hate to continually remind you of this, but we're talking about Borg drones. Not starships, and not unshielded objects, and not other lightsabres, but Borg drones. If a Borg drone's shields interact with the lightsabre, then the Jedi will be able to apply force through that interaction. If a Borg drone's shields do not interact with lightsabres, then the lightsabre will pass cleanly through and slice the drone in half. Either way, the drone cannot defend against the lightsabre.

Right. I'm saying the two would never interact and the sabre would work as if the shields weren't there. Drone shields are phased, lightsabres aren't. My assertion: lightsabre blades only exert force against each other. Nothing else has shown an ability to interact with a lightsabre in the same fashion. For this to happen with Borg shields would actually require them to adapt to the weapon to mimic the behavior of another blade. Which, of course, would still not help as they wouldn't be able to absorb the sabre's radiant energy even after they did adapt.

We agree that drone shields can't defend against a lightsabre. I'm just saying that force isn't the reason for this inadequacy, because drone shields would actually have to be MORE advanced than they are (they'd have to mimic another lightsabre blade) to even encounter that force.

Is there any example of a lightsabre blade exerting force against something other than another blade, as opposed to heating it or overloading another energy construct (like a forcefield) by release of radiant energy?

If it stops the lightsabre blade, then it must exert force against it.

And if my assertion that beams don't carry KE but can generate force on impact is correct, this could explain why the weapon has no recoil. No force is present beforehand. The phaser transmits energy in one form, which is converted to other forms on impact with matter/shields.

If the beam has no appreciable momentum, then it will not generate force unless it vapourizes something on the target: not easily done if the target is shielded, unless the shield is physical.

Yes. I'm saying that the beam has no appreciable momentum except in the light momentum sense. It has some massless particle that nonetheless has momentum in the same sense that a photon does.

I'm not sure what the point of this is...even if the sabre can exert force against anything besides other sabres, this wouldn't happen with Borg shields. They'd overload and collapse on contact before they got the chance to demonstrate any force-exertion ability, and Vader wins even if you're wrong.

Of course Vader wins. But what I'm saying is that your attacks on Kuja for saying that he doesn't need to prove energy handling limits is wrong, because the Borg shield will either be totally useless against a lightsabre or it will transmit force from the Jedi to the Borg. Either way, the Jedi wins even if the Borg drone's shield energy handling is increased a hundredfold.

Kuja was saying that the shields would interact with the sabre and be overloaded. Proving an overload requires an upper limit for the drone shields that can be exceeded by the sabre. But this is impossible, because the shields would never get the chance to interact with the sabre in the first place. The Borg adaptation method depends on an Achilles heel - phase modulation - that the lightsabre doesn't have. So the drones would simply be cut down unshielded.

Summary of my position:

Borg drones are able to create a shield around themselves based on a weapon's phase modulation. Matching the weapon's phase modulation enables them to absorb the phased portion (and only that portion) of its energy, provided the amount of that energy isn't higher than the shield's capacity. These shields do not interact with anything that isn't phased. Therefore, a lightsabre used against Borg will never encounter shielding of any sort.

Lightsabres are not phase modulated, therefore the Borg cannot devise any shield against it. Borg energy absorption capacity is irrelevant because the sabre blade is in a form that cannot be absorbed by drone shields in any amount at all. This is also the reason Borg shields don't stop incoming matter. The matter isn't phased, so it never encounters the shields even if they're on.

If Borg could somehow create a shield that interferes with a lightsabre and thereby accepts force from it in the same fashion as another lightsabre (which I think they can't), they would still only be able to accept a tiny fraction of its radiant energy before overloading.

[Sarevok]

I'm not going to explain the fact that photons are massless if you don't already understand that. Their energy is imparted to matter in kinetic form on impact with matter (electrons). This does not require them to have mass.

I know that but that is not the point. The point is should pure energy exert momentum ? How do you define pure energy ?

[Kuja]

Obviously the shields are "strong" relative to phasers (and not much else), but they have to be phase-matched. Unlike conventional shields, they rely on the nature of the phaser beam and can only absorb its phased portion, leaving the rest to be radiated omnidirectionally as (presumably heat and) light. This is why they can't stop knives or Data - they only interact with phased energy.

So, would you mind explaining what happens to the portion of the beam that isn't phased? Why don't we see dorg drones still taking damage if their shields are only stopping a portion of the beam?

Kuja was saying that the shields would interact with the sabre and be overloaded.

I was giving the borg the benefit of the doubt in assuming that their shields would interact with the lightsaber. But if they won't, more power to Vader.

Borg drones are able to create a shield around themselves based on a weapon's phase modulation. Matching the weapon's phase modulation enables them to absorb the phased portion (and only that portion) of its energy, provided the amount of that energy isn't higher than the shield's capacity. These shields do not interact with anything that isn't phased. Therefore, a lightsabre used against Borg will never encounter shielding of any sort.

Again: if borg shields only stop a portion of the beam, what happens to the rest?

[Sarevok]

Quote:
And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Was not that the shield strength on the alien station who were only a hundred years behind the Federation. Since Riker said that one photon torpedo would knock it down Federation weapons must be very weak.

[Death from the Sea]

Quote:
And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Was not that the shield strength on the alien station who were only a hundred years behind the Federation. Since Riker said that one photon torpedo would knock it down Federation weapons must be very weak.

He said one photon torpedo would destroy the entire station, not just their shields.

[Darth Servo]

Quote:
And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Was not that the shield strength on the alien station who were only a hundred years behind the Federation. Since Riker said that one photon torpedo would knock it down Federation weapons must be very weak.

No, the strength of the shields was 4.3 KJ. The 2.1 MJ is the disrupter strength on the destroyer encountered earlier.

Always check the database.

[Metrion Cascade]

I'm not going to explain the fact that photons are massless if you don't already understand that. Their energy is imparted to matter in kinetic form on impact with matter (electrons). This does not require them to have mass.

I know that but that is not the point. The point is should pure energy exert momentum ? How do you define pure energy ?

That is actually debatable. Some people say light has "figurative mass" because it can act as if it has momentum. But nobody is asserting that it has mass in the same sense as an electron or neutron.

[Metrion Cascade]

Obviously the shields are "strong" relative to phasers (and not much else), but they have to be phase-matched. Unlike conventional shields, they rely on the nature of the phaser beam and can only absorb its phased portion, leaving the rest to be radiated omnidirectionally as (presumably heat and) light. This is why they can't stop knives or Data - they only interact with phased energy.

So, would you mind explaining what happens to the portion of the beam that isn't phased? Why don't we see dorg drones still taking damage if their shields are only stopping a portion of the beam?

Kuja was saying that the shields would interact with the sabre and be overloaded.

I was giving the borg the benefit of the doubt in assuming that their shields would interact with the lightsaber. But if they won't, more power to Vader.

Borg drones are able to create a shield around themselves based on a weapon's phase modulation. Matching the weapon's phase modulation enables them to absorb the phased portion (and only that portion) of its energy, provided the amount of that energy isn't higher than the shield's capacity. These shields do not interact with anything that isn't phased. Therefore, a lightsabre used against Borg will never encounter shielding of any sort.

Again: if borg shields only stop a portion of the beam, what happens to the rest?

As I explained in the first part you quoted, the unphased portion is radiated as light and probably some heat. But it's not enough energy (and not sufficiently focused without the phased portion) to cause damage.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Just ignore him. Evilcat can practically ask questions to death...

[Metrion Cascade]

Quote:
And where did this 2.1 MJ come from?

Conundrum.

Was not that the shield strength on the alien station who were only a hundred years behind the Federation. Since Riker said that one photon torpedo would knock it down Federation weapons must be very weak.

No, the strength of the shields was 4.3 KJ. The 2.1 MJ is the disrupter strength on the destroyer encountered earlier.

Always check the database.

Yes, but this is energy, not power. A shield can absorb any amount of energy given enough time. And if the 2.1 MJ figure is correct (and being delivered over, say, a second), then an Enterprise-era phase pistol could also rock the E-D. Hardly believable.

[Howedar]

Hardly believable? Its fucking canon.

You don't get to arbitrarily decide what is and what is not canon based on your own personal preferences.

[Darth Servo]

A shield can absorb any amount of energy given enough time.

Back up this statement. Heres a hint: think, "wear and tear"