Tensided Campaign OOC chat

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-09 03:13am

Hotfoot wrote:Hold on, think I just solved the skill point equation thingy.

Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*10 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 20 + 10 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 40 + 30 = cost

And so on. Not exactly efficient, but it looks to get the job done well enough to be a kludge. Adjust for initial skill point cost and whatnot as needed.

Dammit, it's too late to be doing math!

But let's see if it works:
For example, let's say a skill is 7.
7/5 = 1.4
1 < 1.4 <= 2, so 1.4-1 * 20 + 10 = 18.
Yeah, that works, but only if the cost of a skill is 2 XP.
How would it work it the cost is 1 XP? 1/2 XP? I sure as hell can't figure that out.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-10-09 03:45am

Yeah, I didn't know about the zeros or stats doubling in cost after 5 points. i'll have to fixt that tomorrow and post the corrected stats. Hmmph.

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2003-10-09 04:17am

Gerard_Paloma wrote:I just got Alyrium's (mostly) finished character sheet, and posted it on the site. ... Art still hasn't given the thumbs up on my sheet. Anybody else?

I'm waiting on some weapons questions and the adjustment to magnitudes and cybernetics, then my sheet'll be ready for approval.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 09:25am

Gerard_Paloma wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:Hold on, think I just solved the skill point equation thingy.

Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*10 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 20 + 10 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 40 + 30 = cost

And so on. Not exactly efficient, but it looks to get the job done well enough to be a kludge. Adjust for initial skill point cost and whatnot as needed.
Dammit, it's too late to be doing math!
But let's see if it works:
For example, let's say a skill is 7.
7/5 = 1.4
1 < 1.4 <= 2, so 1.4-1 * 20 + 10 = 18.
Yeah, that works, but only if the cost of a skill is 2 XP.
How would it work it the cost is 1 XP? 1/2 XP? I sure as hell can't figure that out.

Oh, that's easy.

Tier 1
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*10 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 20 + 10 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 40 + 30 = cost

Tier 2
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*5 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 10 + 5 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 20 + 15 = cost

Tier 3
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*2.5 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 5 + 2.5 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 10 + 7.5 = cost

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-10-09 01:50pm

Hotfoot wrote:Hold on, think I just solved the skill point equation thingy.

Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*10 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 20 + 10 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 40 + 30 = cost

And so on. Not exactly efficient, but it looks to get the job done well enough to be a kludge. Adjust for initial skill point cost and whatnot as needed.

Coolness, thanks man

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-10-09 01:51pm

Oh btw, I forgot to include it in the Cyberpunk rules, but you can't take traits that make you wealthy. Kinda ruins the whole theme if you were "one of them".

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-10-09 04:33pm

Ok, ok, I got it now. Here are my updated stats to replace my updated sheet on the previous page, so I'm pretty sure it's all fixed now. I guess I'm still treally used to D6.

Tier 1 Skills: (2 XP per point)
Combat:
Ranged – 6

Psychic (only if Trait taken):
Telepathy -

Tier 2 Skills: (1 XP per point)
Combat:
Handgun – 5
Rifle – 0
Heavy – 0
Long range – 0
Hand to hand – 5
Throwing – 0

Social:
Leadership – 0
Persuasion – 3
Empathy – 0

Subtlety:
Alertness – 0
Spot – 2
Security – 5
Stealth – 4
Sleight of hand – 3
Hacking – 2

Tier 3 Skills: (1/2 XP per point)
Medic –
Electronics – 3
Engineering –
Education –
Pilot (automobile) – 4
Pilot (specific vehicle) –
Law – 1

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-10-09 05:46pm

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:Ok, ok, I got it now. Here are my updated stats to replace my updated sheet on the previous page, so I'm pretty sure it's all fixed now. I guess I'm still treally used to D6.

Tier 1 Skills: (2 XP per point)
Combat:
Ranged – 6

Psychic (only if Trait taken):
Telepathy -

Tier 2 Skills: (1 XP per point)
Combat:
Handgun – 5
Rifle – 0
Heavy – 0
Long range – 0
Hand to hand – 5
Throwing – 0

Social:
Leadership – 0
Persuasion – 3
Empathy – 0

Subtlety:
Alertness – 0
Spot – 2
Security – 5
Stealth – 4
Sleight of hand – 3
Hacking – 2

Tier 3 Skills: (1/2 XP per point)
Medic –
Electronics – 3
Engineering –
Education –
Pilot (automobile) – 4
Pilot (specific vehicle) –
Law – 1

I count 50 XP. *stamps the seal of approval*. Gerard's right, btw. Skills that just have a dash instead of a 0 next to them must be purchased for 1 XP to get them to 0, then points are put into them. It's in the Big Book, but almost everyone forgets about that one.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-09 07:10pm

CorSec wrote:I'm waiting on some weapons questions and the adjustment to magnitudes and cybernetics, then my sheet'll be ready for approval.

Alright, cool. I'll add you to the campaign page.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-09 07:27pm

Hotfoot wrote:Oh, that's easy.

Tier 1
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*10 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 20 + 10 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 40 + 30 = cost

Tier 2
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*5 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 10 + 5 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 20 + 15 = cost

Tier 3
Skill/5=X
If X <=1, X*2.5 = cost
If 1< X <= 2, X-1 * 5 + 2.5 = cost
If 2< X <= 3, X-2 * 10 + 7.5 = cost

Oh, ok. Yeah, that is easy, now that I think about it. My brain just wasn't working right last night.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 08:23pm

Okay, this should be mostly right...if anything is off, let me know.

Still waiting on the traits and cybernetics before getting anything there.

Mikal Antoliovich
Player: Cameron “Hotfoot” Johnson
Height: 5'11”
Weight: 230 lbs
Age: 25
Features: Mirrorshades, goatee
Clothing: Edgerunner/Dark
Concept: Cold Russian Mercenary
Conformity: -4
Morality: -7

Combat
Body: 5
Coordination: 7
Willpower: 5

Non-Combat
Awareness: 7
Charisma: 6
Talent: 6
Psi (only if Trait taken):

Languages: Russian, English

Profession: Covert Operations

Tier 1 Skills: (2 XP per point)
Combat:
Ranged – 4

Psychic (only if Trait taken):
Telepathy -

Tier 2 Skills: (1 XP per point)
Combat:
Handgun – 3
Rifle – 4
Heavy – 0
Long range – 2
Hand to hand – 2
Throwing – 4

Social:
Leadership – 0
Persuasion – 2
Empathy – 1

Subtlety:
Alertness – 4
Spot – 4
Security – 5
Stealth – 5
Sleight of hand – 5
Hacking –

Tier 3 Skills: (1/2 XP per point)
Medic –
Engineering –
Education –
Music –
Pilot (automobile) – 2
Pilot (specific vehicle) –
Law –

HP(Multiplier x Body): 10
FP(Multiplier x Body): 20
AP: 1
Impact Resistance(1 x Body + Armor): 10
Lethal Resistance(Armor): 5
Damage: 3
MV: 2

Available XP: 0
Earned XP: 0
Starting XP: 50

Money: ???
Inventory: Grenade x 16 WP Grenade x 4

Weapon
Dam
Rng
ROF
Recoil
AT
.45ACP
2d6
10
2
2

MP5 (want MP7)
1d8
20
12
1 (2)

Ithica
6d6
50
1
6

PSG-1
4d6
???
1
4?

Combat Knife
3
S

+1 AT
Grenade
6d6
10
6
w

WP Grenade
12d6
10
4
w

Notes:

Armor
Res
Stealth
MV
AT
Alertness
X-Light
5
-2

XX-Light?
2
?

Notes:

Traits
Magnitude
Effect
Waiting for Godot

Weaknesses
Magnitude
Effect
Waiting for Godot

Character background/description: In progress

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 08:28pm

Gerard_Paloma wrote:Oh, ok. Yeah, that is easy, now that I think about it. My brain just wasn't working right last night.

Of course, I just slapped together a little spreadsheet tool, but the limitations of the spreadsheet won't let me go past level 10 skills. That shouldn't be too much of a problem though, as anyone with those sorts of skills starting out is likely to be a munchkin of unnatural proportions.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-10-09 08:46pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Gerard_Paloma wrote:Oh, ok. Yeah, that is easy, now that I think about it. My brain just wasn't working right last night.
Of course, I just slapped together a little spreadsheet tool, but the limitations of the spreadsheet won't let me go past level 10 skills. That shouldn't be too much of a problem though, as anyone with those sorts of skills starting out is likely to be a munchkin of unnatural proportions.

Hey, I prefer the term engineerical genius.

Ok, I pick X-Light armor and that should round out my character sheet.

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2003-10-09 08:49pm

I just submitted this character to AT for approval.

Name: Blaine Richards
Player: CorSec
Height: 1.8m
Weight: 90kg
Age: 28
Features: nondescript
Clothing: Casual
Concept: Killer Teddy Bear
Conformity: 0
Morality: 4

Combat
Body: 6
Coordination: 5
Willpower: 7

Non-Combat
Awareness: 6
Charisma: 5
Talent: 7
Psi (only if Trait taken):

Languages: English

Profession: Security and Protection

Tier 1 Skills: (2 XP per point)
Combat:
Ranged – 5

Psychic (only if Trait taken):
Telepathy -

Tier 2 Skills: (1 XP per point)
Combat:
Handgun – 5
Rifle – 0
Heavy – 0
Long range – 0
Hand to hand – 5
Throwing – 0

Social:
Leadership – 0
Persuasion – 5
Empathy – 5

Subtlety:
Alertness – 5
Spot – 5
Security – 5
Stealth – 5
Sleight of hand – 0
Hacking –

Tier 3 Skills: (1/2 XP per point)
Medic –
Engineering –
Education –
Music –
Pilot (automobile) – 0
Pilot (specific vehicle) –
Law –

HP (Multiplier x Body): 12
FP (Multiplier x Body): 24
AP: 1
Impact Resistance (1 x Body + Armor): 10
Lethal Resistance (Armor): 5
Damage: 3
MV: 2

Available XP:
Earned XP:
Starting XP: 50

Money:
Inventory:

Sig Sauer P220 Sport (.45 ACP) - (Dam)2D6 (Range)10 (ROF)2 (Recoil)3 (AT)+1
Collapsable Stun Baton - 1D4*Damage (club) -and- 4D6 stun usage (FP for humans, HP for electronics)
Notes:

X-light Leather Jacket (Res)5 (Stealth)-2
Notes:

Cyborg - (Mag)3rd (Effect)Extensive cybernetic implants
Notes: Desired implants: Hard Memory (Ed +8 ); Pain Filter (Will +2)*; VP Mk1 (Spot +4); AP Mk1 (Alert +4); Int. Armor (Lethal/Impact Res. +10)*; Cybermuscle (Body +1)*; SS Eye (NV, TV, Dim); SS Ear (Alert +8 )
(* Denotes "Restricted" status)

Slow - (Mag)1st (Effect)-1MV
Imprecise - (Mag)2nd (Effect)MoS needed to score critical hits rises by one.

Character background/description: (blank)

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 08:52pm

anarchistbunny wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:
Gerard_Paloma wrote:Oh, ok. Yeah, that is easy, now that I think about it. My brain just wasn't working right last night.
Of course, I just slapped together a little spreadsheet tool, but the limitations of the spreadsheet won't let me go past level 10 skills. That shouldn't be too much of a problem though, as anyone with those sorts of skills starting out is likely to be a munchkin of unnatural proportions.
Hey, I prefer the term engineerical genius.

Ok, I pick X-Light armor and that should round out my character sheet.

I thought your skill was just boosted by virtue of the traits you picked up.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-10-09 08:52pm

Hotfoot wrote:
anarchistbunny wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:Of course, I just slapped together a little spreadsheet tool, but the limitations of the spreadsheet won't let me go past level 10 skills. That shouldn't be too much of a problem though, as anyone with those sorts of skills starting out is likely to be a munchkin of unnatural proportions.
Hey, I prefer the term engineerical genius.

Ok, I pick X-Light armor and that should round out my character sheet.
I thought your skill was just boosted by virtue of the traits you picked up.

I had a base 14 + 8 from my triat.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 08:56pm

anarchistbunny wrote:I had a base 14 + 8 from my triat.

Ah, okay.

Edit: You know, it just struck me, the whole skill tier thing seems upside down. You spend more points on simpler skills that should take less time to master, and less points on much more complex skills that should take longer to master. It's always easier to grasp the basics of something before you can grasp the specifics, and since there aren't any tier 1 or tier 2 prerequisites for the higher learning Tier 3 skills, they are incredibly inexpensive.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-10-09 09:30pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:
You sure about only a range of 5? The Neos is a pretty sturdy pistol, and I know a .22 is a small round, but the Long Rifle case has quite a bit of powder behind it and it keeps a level trajectory. Setting it to 10 like the other pistols would at least suit it better, but it's ulitmately up to you. Or maybe I'm thinking of the .22 Hornet, though. But I wouldn't be surprised to at least see a future Neos variant using that instead, if needed. Again, it's your decision.
I assumed with such a small caliber it was a vest pocket pistol. If it's normal sized, then recoil is 0 and range is 10. Maybe you could give me a link that describes the gun?

Larger image of the Baretta U22 Neos.

It's got an adjustable sight range and an overall length of 8 3/4", so it's certainly not a pocket-pistol of the 5 range variety. Then again, I remember now that I was thinking of the .22 Hornet and its large case and level trajectory instead of the .22lr rimfire, so it's certainly wouldn't qualify for any range over 10.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-09 09:45pm

Hotfoot: Your character sheet looks fine so far.

CorSec: Couple things of note.
1. Impact Resistance should be 11 (Body 6 + Armor Res. 5)
2. MV should be 1 (due to the Slow weakness)
Other than that, it looks good. I don't think Art is quite done with the list of implants, so you might want more of those once he's finished. I'll leave the final approval up to Art, but other than the things I mentioned, the sheet looks fine.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-09 09:59pm

Hotfoot wrote:You know, it just struck me, the whole skill tier thing seems upside down. You spend more points on simpler skills that should take less time to master, and less points on much more complex skills that should take longer to master. It's always easier to grasp the basics of something before you can grasp the specifics, and since there aren't any tier 1 or tier 2 prerequisites for the higher learning Tier 3 skills, they are incredibly inexpensive.

That's true, but the reason it's that way is so players don't spend all their XP on combat skills. If it were the other way around (i.e. expensive "technical" skills and cheap combat skills), characters would be uber warriors, and have no technical skills.

The other reason technical skills are incredibly inexpensive (compared to combat skills) is to give players an incentive to buy them, in order to differentiate characters. The idea is that since they're so damn cheap, players will pick up a few here and there and not just focus on combat.

That said, if you know of a better way to handle this problem, that'd be great.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 10:26pm

Gerard_Paloma wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:You know, it just struck me, the whole skill tier thing seems upside down. You spend more points on simpler skills that should take less time to master, and less points on much more complex skills that should take longer to master. It's always easier to grasp the basics of something before you can grasp the specifics, and since there aren't any tier 1 or tier 2 prerequisites for the higher learning Tier 3 skills, they are incredibly inexpensive.
That's true, but the reason it's that way is so players don't spend all their XP on combat skills. If it were the other way around (i.e. expensive "technical" skills and cheap combat skills), characters would be uber warriors, and have no technical skills.

The other reason technical skills are incredibly inexpensive (compared to combat skills) is to give players an incentive to buy them, in order to differentiate characters. The idea is that since they're so damn cheap, players will pick up a few here and there and not just focus on combat.

That said, if you know of a better way to handle this problem, that'd be great.

You could always try making skills exponentially expensive, so that in order to be really good at any one skill would be dangerous, since you'd have to put all your points into that skill. That way, the players will pick up some other skills aside from combat to round out their characters. At least that's the general idea, otherwise, the system falls apart at the noncombatant level, since people not focusing on combat can become veritable gods of their respective professions. It should be easy to become an amatuer, but much harder to become a professional.

Or instead of the exponential approach, maybe something like this: pay 1 XP for skill level 1, then increase by 1 for each additional skill level (you may have to adjust starting XP to match, since I'm not taking that into account). So level 2 is 3 XP, level 3 is 6, level 4 is 10, etc. That way, starting players would be inclined to pick up several "hobby" skills at levels 1-3, with their primary skills being 4-6 on average. Even if they should choose to not have any pickup skills, their increase in their combat skills would be barely noticable beyond a certain point, and the character could become quite easy to do in by other methods.

Edit: Also, consider making it a rule that you can't spend more than X% of your starting XPs on any one skill. Vee-oh-la.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-10-09 10:46pm

Hotfoot wrote: since people not focusing on combat can become veritable gods of their respective professions.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-09 10:51pm

anarchistbunny wrote:
Hotfoot wrote: since people not focusing on combat can become veritable gods of their respective professions.

It's nothing against you personally. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Well, not hate, exactly, but you get the idea.

But it's good to get these sorts of things hammered out before the game begins. Imagine if you started playing and seriously unbalanced the game for whatever reason? The GM would have to respond with equal and opposite forces to keep the game challenging, only with potentially dire consequences. I played a game of D&D once where one player was a half-celestial paladin and the rest of the group consisted of level 1 newbies. The GM couldn't find a safe challenge level for us as a result, as anything that would have been a challenge to a normal low-level group got mauled by the Half-Celestial, while anything that would be a challenge to the Celestial would maul the rest of the group.

Nasty stuff, that. *nods*

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2003-10-09 11:53pm

Gerard_Paloma wrote:CorSec: Couple things of note.
1. Impact Resistance should be 11 (Body 6 + Armor Res. 5)
2. MV should be 1 (due to the Slow weakness)
Other than that, it looks good. I don't think Art is quite done with the list of implants, so you might want more of those once he's finished. I'll leave the final approval up to Art, but other than the things I mentioned, the sheet looks fine.

Thanks for catching my oversights. Originally I was working with a Body of 5, that's why IR was at 10.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2003-10-10 01:03am

Hotfoot wrote:It should be easy to become an amatuer, but much harder to become a professional.

That's what we were going for with the "every 5 levels, cost doubles" scheme.

Or instead of the exponential approach, maybe something like this: pay 1 XP for skill level 1, then increase by 1 for each additional skill level (you may have to adjust starting XP to match, since I'm not taking that into account). So level 2 is 3 XP, level 3 is 6, level 4 is 10, etc. That way, starting players would be inclined to pick up several "hobby" skills at levels 1-3, with their primary skills being 4-6 on average.

If I remember right, that's the way it used to be at one time. I don't remember why it changed, but I think it was a good reason. Mabye not. I dunno, Art has a better memory than I do.

Edit: Also, consider making it a rule that you can't spend more than X% of your starting XPs on any one skill. Vee-oh-la.

Eh, that's a little too oppressive. Tensided is all about player choice, and a rule like that would limit choice too much, I think.

But it's good to get these sorts of things hammered out before the game begins. Imagine if you started playing and seriously unbalanced the game for whatever reason? The GM would have to respond with equal and opposite forces to keep the game challenging, only with potentially dire consequences.

I agree completely. That's what's so great about getting other people than just us to test the system, because we can find out if it's truly broken. We already know it stands up to the sorts of characters we make, but we don't know if it stands up to the sorts of characters everyone else makes.