Shrub gets desperate

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Durran Korr wrote:Nothing to gain from lying in this particular situation. This may end up costing Shrub the election. It doesn't make sense for Shrub to have intentionally lied here; if this is the case, he and the administration had to have known they would be caught and suffer the consequences.
Not true. The administration was gambling in that case. They probably didn't know whether Iraq had them or not, but sold the story anyway based on the huge gains in support that they would have gotten if they went in and found them. Then they could have shut down any opponents fairly easily by saying "Look, we were absolutely right and you wanted us to wait!" It's still very much an intentional lie, but it was based on a gamble.
Or when the missing WMD are accounted for in some way. There has to be some reason why Saddam would risk getting himself killed to cover up something he didn't have.
Then you will never be satisfied, will you? Because if Saddam had done away with them and disappeared their records, then they will never be accounted for because they will never be found.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

SirNitram wrote:Let me get this straight... You honestly believe politicians don't flat out lie? :shock:
They lie when they can get away with it, or when the consequences of doing so do not outweigh the benefits.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Durran Korr wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Let me get this straight... You honestly believe politicians don't flat out lie? :shock:
They lie when they can get away with it, or when the consequences of doing so do not outweigh the benefits.
Ah, so it's just that they're never, ever wrong about thinking they can get away with it, or about the level of benefits. :roll:
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Not true. The administration was gambling in that case. They probably didn't know whether Iraq had them or not, but sold the story anyway based on the huge gains in support that they would have gotten if they went in and found them. Then they could have shut down any opponents fairly easily by saying "Look, we were absolutely right and you wanted us to wait!"
That doesn't take into account the other things that could have been used to gain popularity for the war, like the fact that Hussein has been shooting at our jets for the last decade, and his human rights violations. He could have just used these to gain support, but he started with WMD instead. There's no reason why he would start with WMD when other, less shaky justifications could have been used if there hadn't been some substance to the WMD justification.
It's still very much an intentional lie, but it was based on a gamble.
Admittedly, it was based on doubtful intelligence, but that doesn't make it an outright lie.

I hate to bring Clinton up, but this is hardly the first time this has been done. The Kosovo war was also justified using doubtful intelligence, as was the bombing of the aspirin factory in Sudan. But this doesn't make Bill Clinton a liar anymore than it makes Bush a liar.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Ah, so it's just that they're never, ever wrong about thinking they can get away with it, or about the level of benefits.
In this case, someone in the Bush administration surely had to realize the ramifications of lying; say what you will about Bush, but he has some competent political strategists.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

So when are we going to build the Hadrian style wall along the borders with Mexico?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
The Dark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7378
Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
Location: Promoting ornithological awareness

Post by The Dark »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:So when are we going to build the Hadrian style wall along the borders with Mexico?
Mexico? Bah, they're a cheap source of labor. No, Shrub's Wall will be built to keep out those French-speaking Quebecois barbarians :P .
Stanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
BattleTech for SilCore
User avatar
Durandal
Bile-Driven Hate Machine
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Contact:

Re: Shrub gets desperate

Post by Durandal »

Stuart Mackey wrote:Allthough it is all poltical BS one has to wonder about statement like
G.W. Bush wrote: "Who could possibly think that the world would be better off with Saddam Hussein still in power?"
Who could possibly think that Americans will get more jobs with Saddam Hussein out of power?
Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Durran Korr wrote:
Ah, so it's just that they're never, ever wrong about thinking they can get away with it, or about the level of benefits.
In this case, someone in the Bush administration surely had to realize the ramifications of lying; say what you will about Bush, but he has some competent political strategists.
Yes; these individuals have been attributed several quotes recently about how well the sanctions against Hussein had worked. So we should believe them when they say this but not that?

If your whole argument boils down to 'Someone had to realize it would backfire!', that's a sad argument. All I need to point out is the overwhelming lack of proof to their claims(You do know that we don't search for the Ether still, because it 'might be there', or because some people are 'confident they'll find it', right?).
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Durran Korr wrote:That doesn't take into account the other things that could have been used to gain popularity for the war, like the fact that Hussein has been shooting at our jets for the last decade, and his human rights violations. He could have just used these to gain support, but he started with WMD instead. There's no reason why he would start with WMD when other, less shaky justifications could have been used if there hadn't been some substance to the WMD justification.
Sure there is. Since 9/11, terrorism has been a golden buzzword, and they figured that people are scared enough about another attack that people would get behind them if they tried and scare people into thinking that if they didn't attack right now, there would be another 9/11.
People don't care much about the Iraqis incompetant air defense, because it never managed hit anything and it's not like they were shooting at jets over our airspace. Citing human rights violations opens a whole other can of worms, which, by the way, I know for a fact that you've stated that you didn't want opened, meaning that if we justify the war based on human rights violations, that they'd have to justify not doing the same thing in places that are every bit as bad, some of which are our allies. Naturally, people will take the administrations unwillingness to follow their own precident as meaning that they weren't serious about human rights in the first place and there was an ulterior motive.

What's odd is that you'd be playing the human rights card, Durran, since I know that from before you've commented that human rights wasn't the primary motive and than you didn't want it to be anyway, since it continues an uncomfortable precident which would be very expensive to follow up on.
Admittedly, it was based on doubtful intelligence, but that doesn't make it an outright lie.
Yes it does, in fact, make it an outright lie, since they had to know full well that their intelligence was bogus and they pushed it like it was gospel truth.
I hate to bring Clinton up, but this is hardly the first time this has been done. The Kosovo war was also justified using doubtful intelligence, as was the bombing of the aspirin factory in Sudan. But this doesn't make Bill Clinton a liar anymore than it makes Bush a liar.
Enter the standard knee-jerk conservative modus operandi. Whenever someone is critizing Bush, bring up Clinton, even though he's got nothing to do with the topic at hand, and go "Well... well... he was bad too!". C'mon, Durran, do you honestly think that flies?
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

The Dark wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:So when are we going to build the Hadrian style wall along the borders with Mexico?
Mexico? Bah, they're a cheap source of labor. No, Shrub's Wall will be built to keep out those French-speaking Quebecois barbarians :P .
It would be totally Ironic if we made it a hedge wall....

But then there would be the chances of people getting hopelessly lost in the maze....
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

st
What's odd is that you'd be playing the human rights card, Durran, since I know that from before you've commented that human rights wasn't the primary motive and than you didn't want it to be anyway, since it continues an uncomfortable precident which would be very expensive to follow up on.
My point was that the human rights card could have been used in lieu of WMD to garner support for the war. It was not meant to be an endorsement of actually doing so.
Yes it does, in fact, make it an outright lie, since they had to know full well that their intelligence was bogus and they pushed it like it was gospel truth.
And they shouldn't have, in my opinion. But that doesn't mean the doubtful intelligence that they did act on was completely invalid.
Enter the standard knee-jerk conservative modus operandi. Whenever someone is critizing Bush, bring up Clinton, even though he's got nothing to do with the topic at hand, and go "Well... well... he was bad too!". C'mon, Durran, do you honestly think that flies?
*sigh*

In other words, we cannot compare the actions of this administration with those of others, we must consider them completely isolated from one another historically. I brought up Clinton to show that there is nothing inherently wrong with acting on doubtful intelligence.

I could also bring up the possibility that acting on doubtful intelligence in the past could have prevented 9/11, but that's too much of an unknown.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
PROMETHEUS
Youngling
Posts: 126
Joined: 2002-09-23 12:44pm

Post by PROMETHEUS »

Durran Korr wrote:
Iceberg wrote:From Saddam's POV, it was probably better to be martyred by the US than to have it revealed that sanctions turned his country into a toothless, defenseless paper tiger, which would invite the other countries in the region to attack him.
You can still fight a war without WMD.
But can you fight a war without WMD and while having most of your military in the junkyard?
"Mostly Harmless"
User avatar
theski
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4327
Joined: 2003-01-28 03:20pm
Location: Hurricane Watching

Post by theski »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Yes it does, in fact, make it an outright lie, since they had to know full well that their intelligence was bogus and they pushed it like it was gospel truth


OK.. Do you think John Kerry made the same bad choice...
Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran who had been in the go-slow camp, said Saddam's arsenal posed "a real and grave threat" to the United States and its allies
Sounds like both sides thought there was a threat
Sudden power is apt to be insolent, sudden liberty saucy; that behaves best which has grown gradually.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

theski wrote:Gil Hamilton wrote:
Yes it does, in fact, make it an outright lie, since they had to know full well that their intelligence was bogus and they pushed it like it was gospel truth
OK.. Do you think John Kerry made the same bad choice...
Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran who had been in the go-slow camp, said Saddam's arsenal posed "a real and grave threat" to the United States and its allies
Sounds like both sides thought there was a threat
No, sounds like Kerry bought the big lie hook line and sinker.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Iceberg
ASVS Master of Laundry
Posts: 4068
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:23am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Contact:

Post by Iceberg »

This is a reason I'm not too keen on the idea of Kerry as the Dems' candidate for president: He'd rather do what seems politically safe than put his ass on the line for what's right.
"Carriers dispense fighters, which dispense assbeatings." - White Haven

| Hyperactive Gundam Pilot of MM | GALE | ASVS | Cleaners | Kibologist (beable) | DFB |
If only one rock and roll song echoes into tomorrow
There won't be anything to keep you from the distant morning glow.
I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Iceberg wrote:This is a reason I'm not too keen on the idea of Kerry as the Dems' candidate for president: He'd rather do what seems politically safe than put his ass on the line for what's right.
Haven't heard enough to know that. I consider it possible he simply bought the lie he was being told.

Quick! Someone inform CNN that the American Left are not superbeings who can instantly tell lie from truth!
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Iceberg
ASVS Master of Laundry
Posts: 4068
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:23am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Contact:

Post by Iceberg »

SirNitram wrote:
Iceberg wrote:This is a reason I'm not too keen on the idea of Kerry as the Dems' candidate for president: He'd rather do what seems politically safe than put his ass on the line for what's right.
Haven't heard enough to know that. I consider it possible he simply bought the lie he was being told.
It's quite possible, true. Though there were several Democrats - including Howard Dean and Paul Wellstone - who didn't buy it.
Quick! Someone inform CNN that the American Left are not superbeings who can instantly tell lie from truth!
Quickly! Call CNN! NBC! ABC! CBS! Fox News! THE DAILY SHOW!!!! 8)
"Carriers dispense fighters, which dispense assbeatings." - White Haven

| Hyperactive Gundam Pilot of MM | GALE | ASVS | Cleaners | Kibologist (beable) | DFB |
If only one rock and roll song echoes into tomorrow
There won't be anything to keep you from the distant morning glow.
I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

OK, theski, I'm going to ask you a personal question. Is there something wrong with the brain chemistry of conservatives that whenever someone critizes a conservative, their immediate reaction is not to address that point directly but rather to find a liberal and go "He's bad too! Let's talk about him!"? Why is it that instead of directly addressing why Bush and gang were selling the WMD like it was bible fucking truth, even though it wasn't, your immediate knee-jerk is to quote Kerry, even though he's irrelevant to the discussion? You are doing the same thing that Durran tried to do, and it ain't going to fly. How about you stay on topic, and we might actually get somewhere.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Iceberg wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Iceberg wrote:This is a reason I'm not too keen on the idea of Kerry as the Dems' candidate for president: He'd rather do what seems politically safe than put his ass on the line for what's right.
Haven't heard enough to know that. I consider it possible he simply bought the lie he was being told.
It's quite possible, true. Though there were several Democrats - including Howard Dean and Paul Wellstone - who didn't buy it.
There were lots of people who didn't buy it. Unfortunately, it was sold to enough to go to war. I'm simply amazed that the American Right's supporters on this board can think, even for a moment, that because a Left-Winger says something, instantly the whole Left Wing must agree with them. What sort of brain-damaged idea is this?
Quick! Someone inform CNN that the American Left are not superbeings who can instantly tell lie from truth!
Quickly! Call CNN! NBC! ABC! CBS! Fox News! THE DAILY SHOW!!!! 8)
'Cuz the Daily Show doesn't lie. Ever.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Iceberg
ASVS Master of Laundry
Posts: 4068
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:23am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Contact:

Post by Iceberg »

SirNitram wrote:There were lots of people who didn't buy it. Unfortunately, it was sold to enough to go to war. I'm simply amazed that the American Right's supporters on this board can think, even for a moment, that because a Left-Winger says something, instantly the whole Left Wing must agree with them. What sort of brain-damaged idea is this?
I could make a theory where they get that kind of idea, but I'd probably get flamed for it. ;)
Quickly! Call CNN! NBC! ABC! CBS! Fox News! THE DAILY SHOW!!!! 8)
'Cuz the Daily Show doesn't lie. Ever.[/quote]
Nope. Never have, never will. :angelic:
"Carriers dispense fighters, which dispense assbeatings." - White Haven

| Hyperactive Gundam Pilot of MM | GALE | ASVS | Cleaners | Kibologist (beable) | DFB |
If only one rock and roll song echoes into tomorrow
There won't be anything to keep you from the distant morning glow.
I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

What is so horrifically wrong about comparing the actions of different administrations? Pointing out how precedent set by one can affect the other?
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
theski
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4327
Joined: 2003-01-28 03:20pm
Location: Hurricane Watching

Post by theski »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
OK, theski, I'm going to ask you a personal question. Is there something wrong with the brain chemistry of conservatives that whenever someone critizes a conservative, their immediate reaction is not to address that point directly but rather to find a liberal and go "He's bad too! Let's talk about him!"?
Ok.. From my personal viewpoint.. The war was oversold to the American people. I can admit that.. the only disclaimer I will give is: those Senators saw the same intel that the Admin did and they saw the same threat. I lay most of the blame for this at the feet of the CIA for blowing the call on WMD and the Prez for not just taking the Heat and saying he was wrong.. IMHO
Sudden power is apt to be insolent, sudden liberty saucy; that behaves best which has grown gradually.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Durran Korr wrote:What is so horrifically wrong about comparing the actions of different administrations? Pointing out how precedent set by one can affect the other?
Kerry has an administration? Oh, wait, he doesn't. So your 'compare administrations' claim is bullshit.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Hamel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3842
Joined: 2003-02-06 10:34am
Contact:

Post by Hamel »

Like I have said before

I would have more sympathy for the anti-Clinton Brigade if they would've impeached him for Kosovo, and not the blowjob
"Right now we can tell you a report was filed by the family of a 12 year old boy yesterday afternoon alleging Mr. Michael Jackson of criminal activity. A search warrant has been filed and that search is currently taking place. Mr. Jackson has not been charged with any crime. We cannot specifically address the content of the police report as it is confidential information at the present time, however, we can confirm that Mr. Jackson forced the boy to listen to the Howard Stern show and watch the movie Private Parts over and over again."
Post Reply