Tensided Campaign OOC chat

[Hotfoot]

That's what we were going for with the "every 5 levels, cost doubles" scheme.

Which works nicely by itself, I think, but really starts to hurt with the tier system, especially with it being so biased against gunslingers. I mean, for the same training and dedication (XPs) it takes for me to learn to be a novice (2) grenade tosser, I could easily become an Elite (8-9) Biochemist/Engineer. You can easily teach a nine year old how to toss a grenade. Try teaching that same nine year old how to become a mechanical engineer...kind of falls apart. If anything, becoming a biochemist should be much harder, you need a fair amount of math, biology, chemistry, etc. As for being an engineer, well, just ask Mike. My dad knew how to shoot a gun long before he ever entered the work force, and he's pretty good at it too.

Of course, I'm nowhere near as good as the guy who sat behind me in high school physics. He ate, breathed, and dreamt of marksmanship. His entire lust for physics was to better understand the workings of his guns. He went to a military academy after graduating.

If I remember right, that's the way it used to be at one time. I don't remember why it changed, but I think it was a good reason. Mabye not. I dunno, Art has a better memory than I do.

Kill him and eat his brains. That should help.

Eh, that's a little too oppressive. Tensided is all about player choice, and a rule like that would limit choice too much, I think.

If anything, I think it would be less oppressive than the current tier system. To get even moderate (3-4) combat skills at 50XP, you're spending about 20% of your XP on just one gun skill alone.

I agree completely. That's what's so great about getting other people than just us to test the system, because we can find out if it's truly broken. We already know it stands up to the sorts of characters we make, but we don't know if it stands up to the sorts of characters everyone else makes.

I feel so used.



Edit: By the by, here's a character I can make which could really make things interesting:

Body: 3
Coordination: 8
Willpower: 4

Awareness: 7
Charisma: 7
Talent: 7

Tier 2
Persuasion: 10
Empathy: 10
Hacking: 2
Tier 3
Law: 10
Education: 10 (Alt. replace with medicine)

The ultimate lawer, folks...and he can be a doctor too...now for some traits and weaknesses to really tweak him out, but I think my point has been made.

Take in mind that he has become a killer lawer/teacher/doctor and hobbiest hacker with only 20 skill points...30 went into making him a killer con man.

"Legal trouble? What legal trouble? I can convince Moses that he's Christian and get the twelve tribes of Isreal to convict him of blasphemy!"

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Edit: You know, it just struck me, the whole skill tier thing seems upside down. You spend more points on simpler skills that should take less time to master, and less points on much more complex skills that should take longer to master. It's always easier to grasp the basics of something before you can grasp the specifics, and since there aren't any tier 1 or tier 2 prerequisites for the higher learning Tier 3 skills, they are incredibly inexpensive.

It's based on game balance, not realism. Skills get put into Tiers according to how useful they are. If I were running a game with a lot of political maneuvering and very little combat, then combat skills would be Tier 2 or 3 and social skills Tier 1.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

You could always try making skills exponentially expensive, so that in order to be really good at any one skill would be dangerous, since you'd have to put all your points into that skill. That way, the players will pick up some other skills aside from combat to round out their characters. At least that's the general idea, otherwise, the system falls apart at the noncombatant level, since people not focusing on combat can become veritable gods of their respective professions. It should be easy to become an amatuer, but much harder to become a professional.

I can certainly see what you're saying from a realism approach, but I will always sacrifice realism for game balance, and I don't see how being fantastic at any of the Tier 3 Skills is particularly unbalancing. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, I guess I'm just not really sure where the problem lies.

Or instead of the exponential approach, maybe something like this: pay 1 XP for skill level 1, then increase by 1 for each additional skill level (you may have to adjust starting XP to match, since I'm not taking that into account). So level 2 is 3 XP, level 3 is 6, level 4 is 10, etc. That way, starting players would be inclined to pick up several "hobby" skills at levels 1-3, with their primary skills being 4-6 on average. Even if they should choose to not have any pickup skills, their increase in their combat skills would be barely noticable beyond a certain point, and the character could become quite easy to do in by other methods.

That's the way it used to work, but it was too hard to manage and intuit. And I still don't see why the Tier 3 skills are useful enough to justify having to spend more points on them.

Edit: Also, consider making it a rule that you can't spend more than X% of your starting XPs on any one skill. Vee-oh-la.

Is that necessary with the doubling rule? Especially once you get past 10 in a Skill, it costs so much that the other Skills look more and more attractive.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Big update to the cybernetics. I think it's pretty much done now. I didn't bother with a lot of more minor stuff like internal radios and wristblades and things. There are some great lists of cyber stuff at these sites that you can use to get ideas:

http://www.ambient.ca/cpunk/
http://www.geocities.com/1knighthawk/cpmain1.htm
http://www.scs.wsu.edu/~pbourque/silcp.htm

But all the major stuff that I think belongs in my campaign is now in the rules. So ignore the major and important stuff on those sites. If they're not in the rules, then I already looked at them and decided not to include them. Feel free to argue with me of course

As usual, new stuff is in blue. I left everything that's relatively new in blue, although I un-blued the old cyber stuff for obvious reasons. I finally updated the melee weapon table to the new system (kept forgetting). Make note of the changes in the cyber related traits.

Tomorrow I'll get to work on the more exotic equipment (I don't think you need me to list every radio, cellphone, etc.), vehicles, and the Telepathy system. Then later I'll do a timeline and storyline for the campaign's world.

P.S. So Hotfoot, how exactly do you go about using equations in Excel? The menus are all in Spanish, so I don't feel like trying to figure it out on my own.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Paco_Ber ... eretta.jpg

Larger image of the Baretta U22 Neos.

It's got an adjustable sight range and an overall length of 8 3/4", so it's certainly not a pocket-pistol of the 5 range variety. Then again, I remember now that I was thinking of the .22 Hornet and its large case and level trajectory instead of the .22lr rimfire, so it's certainly wouldn't qualify for any range over 10.

So it's a .22 target pistol then. Thanks for the info.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Okay, this should be mostly right...if anything is off, let me know.

Still waiting on the traits and cybernetics before getting anything there.

Mikal Antoliovich
Player: Cameron “Hotfoot” Johnson
Height: 5'11”
Weight: 230 lbs
Age: 25
Features: Mirrorshades, goatee
Clothing: Edgerunner/Dark
Concept: Cold Russian Mercenary
Conformity: -4
Morality: -7

Finally a real heartless bastard!

Combat
Body: 5
Coordination: 7
Willpower: 5

Non-Combat
Awareness: 7
Charisma: 6
Talent: 6
Psi (only if Trait taken):

Languages: Russian, English

Profession: Covert Operations

Tier 1 Skills: (2 XP per point)
Combat:
Ranged – 4

Psychic (only if Trait taken):
Telepathy -

Tier 2 Skills: (1 XP per point)
Combat:
Handgun – 3
Rifle – 4
Heavy – 0
Long range – 2
Hand to hand – 2
Throwing – 4

Social:
Leadership – 0
Persuasion – 2
Empathy – 1

Subtlety:
Alertness – 4
Spot – 4
Security – 5
Stealth – 5
Sleight of hand – 5
Hacking –

Tier 3 Skills: (1/2 XP per point)
Medic –
Engineering –
Education –
Music –
Pilot (automobile) – 2
Pilot (specific vehicle) –
Law –

Adds up, but then it should now that you've seen so many examples

HP(Multiplier x Body): 10
FP(Multiplier x Body): 20
AP: 1
Impact Resistance(1 x Body + Armor): 10
Lethal Resistance(Armor): 5
Damage: 3
MV: 2

Available XP: 0
Earned XP: 0
Starting XP: 50

Money: ???

Anything up to $100 or so is fine.

Inventory: Grenade x 16 WP Grenade x 4

Weapon Dam Rng ROF Recoil AT
.45ACP 2d6 10 2 2

MP5 (want MP7) 1d8 20 12 1 (2)

Let's see... 4.6mm roughly = 5.7, Size jacket, not sure on ROF (1 round = 1 second, so rpm / 60). So basically the stats are:
MP7 1d8 10 15? 1 (3?)
Notes: Armor piercing, capacity 20 or 40, size jacket

Ithica 6d6 50 1 6

PSG-1 4d6 ??? 1 4?

+20 Range for 7.62 NATO, 30 for N/A size, so Range 50. Recoil is 3, ROF is 2 (all self-loaders are ROF 2), and I'd say +1 AT since it's known to be so accurate.

Combat Knife 3 S +1 AT

Damage is 1d6.

Grenade 6d6 10 6 w

WP Grenade 12d6 10 4 w
Notes:

Armor Res Stealth MV AT Alertness
X-Light 5 -2
Notes:

*snip*

Looks good so far. Cybernetics are done now, so you can do that part.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I await the telepathy system with evil and eager anticipation, and ypine for the details of the mind raping.

[Hotfoot]

I can certainly see what you're saying from a realism approach, but I will always sacrifice realism for game balance, and I don't see how being fantastic at any of the Tier 3 Skills is particularly unbalancing. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, I guess I'm just not really sure where the problem lies.

If the game only focuses on combat, it doesn't matter, but if you want to have any interaction off of the battlefield, things get tricky. For example, with 50 XP, I can get the following skills

Persuasion 5
Empathy 5

Law 10
Medic 10
Engineering 10
Eduation 10
Music 5
Automobile 5

So we've got a lawyer-doctor-engineer-professor who is a pretty darn good musician and a darn good wheelman. If the group gets into legal trouble, he can get them out pretty easily. If someone gets hurt, he's on the job. If someone needs something fixed or built, hey, he's MacGuyver! Anyone has a question, he's got the answer. Hey, he can even earn a few bucks on the side as a cover singer or a stuntman.

I understand that you're dong things the way you are for purposes of play balance, but it's really a huge step in the wrong direction in my opinion. If anything, you're denying the players choice to put more XP into "flavor" skills that aren't directly useful in combat, since the only way they'll be any use at all in in ridiculously high numbers. You'd be better off if one player just bites the bullet and takes all of the tier three skills he can to become the party's PR agent, lawyer, smithy, whatever while everyone else focuses on precious combat skills. Rather than encouraging a wide selection of skills, the current set of rules encourage overspecialization.

That's the way it used to work, but it was too hard to manage and intuit. And I still don't see why the Tier 3 skills are useful enough to justify having to spend more points on them.

It's not that hard-each skill level costs as much as the level. It's only strange at character creation, when you have to add them all up.

Is that necessary with the doubling rule? Especially once you get past 10 in a Skill, it costs so much that the other Skills look more and more attractive.

Some skills cost too much at 5.

P.S. So Hotfoot, how exactly do you go about using equations in Excel? The menus are all in Spanish, so I don't feel like trying to figure it out on my own.

=IF((A2/5)<=1;A2/5*10;(((A2/5)-1)*20+10))
=IF((A4/5)<=1;A4/5*5;(((A4/5)-1)*10+5))
=IF((A6/5)<=1;A6/5*2.5;(((A6/5)-1)*5+2.5))

Only works up to ten, unfortunately. Beyond that you're on your own.

And yes, Mikal is a very heartless bastard, and it's about time I gave him some exercise again.

Oh, one more thing occured to me. Before, when we were discussing defense via PM, you said that you wanted the players to describe what they were doing, however, unless you're going to write out detailed descriptions of the areas the players are in, what available cover there is, etc., there is a very easy avenue for being zippy. Maybe state that a location has a cover value to determine how much cover there is (negatives for very wide open and clear areas), then include a die roll/skill something to take advantage of it, maybe even just a stat roll to keep combat moving along, with no associated skill. Just a thought.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

If the game only focuses on combat, it doesn't matter, but if you want to have any interaction off of the battlefield, things get tricky. For example, with 50 XP, I can get the following skills

Persuasion 5
Empathy 5

Law 10
Medic 10
Engineering 10
Eduation 10
Music 5
Automobile 5

So we've got a lawyer-doctor-engineer-professor who is a pretty darn good musician and a darn good wheelman. If the group gets into legal trouble, he can get them out pretty easily. If someone gets hurt, he's on the job. If someone needs something fixed or built, hey, he's MacGuyver! Anyone has a question, he's got the answer. Hey, he can even earn a few bucks on the side as a cover singer or a stuntman.

Now I can see where you're coming from. This campaign will be pretty bloody, but with enough framework to make the battles interesting and have meaning. A character like that would defeat the purpose. Maybe just 2 Tiers is sufficient. Thanks for pointing that out.

I understand that you're dong things the way you are for purposes of play balance, but it's really a huge step in the wrong direction in my opinion. If anything, you're denying the players choice to put more XP into "flavor" skills that aren't directly useful in combat, since the only way they'll be any use at all in in ridiculously high numbers. You'd be better off if one player just bites the bullet and takes all of the tier three skills he can to become the party's PR agent, lawyer, smithy, whatever while everyone else focuses on precious combat skills. Rather than encouraging a wide selection of skills, the current set of rules encourage overspecialization.

I never thought of it that way. You're right.

It's not that hard-each skill level costs as much as the level. It's only strange at character creation, when you have to add them all up.

My problem with the system was that the costs would really start to get out of hand. I mean, with the doubling rule things can start to get pretty expensive already.

Some skills cost too much at 5.

You mean Ranged? It's the most important skill, it should be expensive, no?

=IF((A2/5)<=1;A2/5*10;(((A2/5)-1)*20+10))
=IF((A4/5)<=1;A4/5*5;(((A4/5)-1)*10+5))
=IF((A6/5)<=1;A6/5*2.5;(((A6/5)-1)*5+2.5))

Only works up to ten, unfortunately. Beyond that you're on your own.

So where do I put those equations? And what else do I have to do to make it work?

And yes, Mikal is a very heartless bastard, and it's about time I gave him some exercise again.

Oh, one more thing occured to me. Before, when we were discussing defense via PM, you said that you wanted the players to describe what they were doing, however, unless you're going to write out detailed descriptions of the areas the players are in, what available cover there is, etc., there is a very easy avenue for being zippy. Maybe state that a location has a cover value to determine how much cover there is (negatives for very wide open and clear areas), then include a die roll/skill something to take advantage of it, maybe even just a stat roll to keep combat moving along, with no associated skill. Just a thought.

Well I generally just describe close by cover, and it's always worked fine. If it's no good that way, we can cross that bridge then.

[Alyrium Denryle]

So, how is the telepathy system coming?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

So, how is the telepathy system coming?

Well, it's not. I'll get to work on it shortly now that I'm pretty much done with Cybernetics.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Did a minor update on the Telepathy system, only the two most basic powers, but there's more to come.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Another update on the Telepathy system. The powers are pretty broad, and the 5 that are there provide a pretty wide range of stuff that can be done. Suggestions for other things are welcome.

I'm considering trying out Hotfoot's suggestion of level 1 of a Skill costing 1 XP, 2 costing 2 on top of that, etc. What does everyone think? I'm thinking there should still be Tiers, though. The downside of course is that everyone will have to re-configure their Skills. The upside is that it would prevent abuse of non-combat skills being at ridiculous levels cheaply.

[Hotfoot]

I'm considering trying out Hotfoot's suggestion of level 1 of a Skill costing 1 XP, 2 costing 2 on top of that, etc. What does everyone think? I'm thinking there should still be Tiers, though. The downside of course is that everyone will have to re-configure their Skills. The upside is that it would prevent abuse of non-combat skills being at ridiculous levels cheaply.

If you send it along to me first, I'll crunch some numbers to see what I can do with it.

Oh, by the way, sorry for not responding earlier, but I got back from a wedding late last night and I was dead tired.

All you needed to make those equations work was to enter in the desired skill level into the cell the appropriate equation was set to read from. In this case, Tier 1 was A2, Tier 2 was A4, and Tier 3 was A6. In the future, I'll just upload the file so you can better tinker with it.

Might I suggest that you move education down to Tier 1, making it a pre-requisite for some of the Tier 2 skills (like law, engineering, medic, etc.)? Also, perhaps adjusting the photographic memory implant (the one that gives +8 to education) so that it maybe increases education by a multiplier, say somewhere between 1.25 and 2.5 (1.5 would be a good starting point, IMO). Or maybe make it so that having the implant reduces the cost of the education skill by half or more.

Just more stuff from the idea machine.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I'm considering trying out Hotfoot's suggestion of level 1 of a Skill costing 1 XP, 2 costing 2 on top of that, etc. What does everyone think? I'm thinking there should still be Tiers, though. The downside of course is that everyone will have to re-configure their Skills. The upside is that it would prevent abuse of non-combat skills being at ridiculous levels cheaply.

If you send it along to me first, I'll crunch some numbers to see what I can do with it.

Send what along?

Oh, by the way, sorry for not responding earlier, but I got back from a wedding late last night and I was dead tired.

Real life takes precedence. Nothing wrong with that.

All you needed to make those equations work was to enter in the desired skill level into the cell the appropriate equation was set to read from. In this case, Tier 1 was A2, Tier 2 was A4, and Tier 3 was A6. In the future, I'll just upload the file so you can better tinker with it.

OK. Where do I enter the equation?

Might I suggest that you move education down to Tier 1, making it a pre-requisite for some of the Tier 2 skills (like law, engineering, medic, etc.)?

That's a good idea. Originally it was just a re-naming of Lore, but when you really think about it, you're absolutely right. Education should be the bedrock of knowledge skills, much like Ranged is the bedrock of combat skills.

Also, if we use the cumulative addition system for determining XP cost (and we will unless someone objects), I figure that since people tend to get 5 points in a skill generally, and it costs 15 points for a Tier 2 skill using the cumulative addition system instead of 5 using the old one, then starting XP should be triple the current amount. So that means 150. That system is actually what we used to use, but it caused a problem with that version of the game that it no longer causes (can't remember what the problem was anymore). We'll try it out and see how it goes, anyway.

Also, perhaps adjusting the photographic memory implant (the one that gives +8 to education) so that it maybe increases education by a multiplier, say somewhere between 1.25 and 2.5 (1.5 would be a good starting point, IMO). Or maybe make it so that having the implant reduces the cost of the education skill by half or more.

I like that second suggestion. A perfect memory would make learning much easier, but wouldn't grant knowledge. So maybe the implant knocks Education down to Tier 2 (half the cost).

Just more stuff from the idea machine.

Keep 'em coming! Really glad to have you on board supplying them.

Btw, have you looked at the cybernetics and decided what you wanted yet? That goes for the other cybered characters, too.

[Hotfoot]

Send what along?

Skills, tier placements, and costs. Just email them to me or something for best results.

OK. Where do I enter the equation?

Anywhere but the cells that they are trying to read from.

That's a good idea. Originally it was just a re-naming of Lore, but when you really think about it, you're absolutely right. Education should be the bedrock of knowledge skills, much like Ranged is the bedrock of combat skills.

Excellent. Muwahahahaha...

Also, if we use the cumulative addition system for determining XP cost (and we will unless someone objects), I figure that since people tend to get 5 points in a skill generally, and it costs 15 points for a Tier 2 skill using the cumulative addition system instead of 5 using the old one, then starting XP should be triple the current amount. So that means 150. That system is actually what we used to use, but it caused a problem with that version of the game that it no longer causes (can't remember what the problem was anymore). We'll try it out and see how it goes, anyway.

(Cue maniacal laughter)

I like that second suggestion. A perfect memory would make learning much easier, but wouldn't grant knowledge. So maybe the implant knocks Education down to Tier 2 (half the cost).

And maybe shifts all the knowledge skills to tier 3 in the process (but not retroactively for any of the skills, unless taken at character creation).

Keep 'em coming! Really glad to have you on board supplying them.

Do what I can.

Btw, have you looked at the cybernetics and decided what you wanted yet? That goes for the other cybered characters, too.

Looking and deciding. It's a delicate game of wanting power but not wanting too many consequences.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Send what along?

Skills, tier placements, and costs. Just email them to me or something for best results.

Why don't I just upload them on the site so everyone can see them?

OK. Where do I enter the equation?

Anywhere but the cells that they are trying to read from.

Ah ok. Thanks

I like that second suggestion. A perfect memory would make learning much easier, but wouldn't grant knowledge. So maybe the implant knocks Education down to Tier 2 (half the cost).

And maybe shifts all the knowledge skills to tier 3 in the process (but not retroactively for any of the skills, unless taken at character creation).

That would make sense. The implant will have to be more expensive, but then a wired memory would be realistically.

Btw, have you looked at the cybernetics and decided what you wanted yet? That goes for the other cybered characters, too.

Looking and deciding. It's a delicate game of wanting power but not wanting too many consequences.

That it is

[Hotfoot]

Why don't I just upload them on the site so everyone can see them?

That works too, though it's theoretically less work to shoot things back and forth, but I ramble.

That would make sense. The implant will have to be more expensive, but then a wired memory would be realistically.

Indeed. Let me know what the new cost is, since that was on my list of things to get.

Looking and deciding. It's a delicate game of wanting power but not wanting too many consequences.

That it is

I think I've got a good setup going here, but I had to go for one level of trait higher than I intended to. At the very least, while my character may be a true bastard, he's smart enough not to get caught doing something illegal.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

That would make sense. The implant will have to be more expensive, but then a wired memory would be realistically.

Indeed. Let me know what the new cost is, since that was on my list of things to get. [/quote]
Hmm. Well if we're going to elevate the importance of technical skills AND make Education the limiter for all of them, and this implant halves the cost of them, I'd say that's damn useful indeed. So I'm thinking $20,000 should be the cost. It wouldn't be restricted, though.

I think I've got a good setup going here, but I had to go for one level of trait higher than I intended to. At the very least, while my character may be a true bastard, he's smart enough not to get caught doing something illegal.

Btw, this is a good place to make a comment about cybernetics in case some of you think they're an easy ticket to godliness. Here's a few things to think about:

1. You're using Trait points to get something that you can get later on without spending the points. You have to earn the money though, of course.

2. Restricted cybernetics are quite illegal for your characters, and cops tend to ask for registrations if they notice someone with obvious upgrades.

3. Many cybernetics are made of metal, particularly restricted ones. And since a lot of people carry weapons, metal detectors are quite popular.

So don't think they are without drawbacks.

[Hotfoot]

Hmm. Well if we're going to elevate the importance of technical skills AND make Education the limiter for all of them, and this implant halves the cost of them, I'd say that's damn useful indeed. So I'm thinking $20,000 should be the cost. It wouldn't be restricted, though.

Thus ensuring the intellectual elite all having them.

By the way, might it be possible to make different levels of restricted? That way you could have a combat version of the same system at the highest level of restriction (highest level of government/corperate goons only, with a killswitch installed to ensure no...shall we say, changes of heart).

Btw, this is a good place to make a comment about cybernetics in case some of you think they're an easy ticket to godliness.

So far, the increases in costs from Mk1s to Mk2s pretty much ensures I'll be sticking with the Mk1's for character creation (as would most people), I would think. One thing I have to comment on: The supersoldier eyes, I'm assuming that both eyes are replaced, and that the options between them are shared, correct?

Here's a few things to think about:

1. You're using Trait points to get something that you can get later on without spending the points. You have to earn the money though, of course.

One thing that may help is a little something from CP2020. They had a rule that gave characters 10,000 Eurobucks for cybernetics, but made them totally obligated to an organization which provided those upgrades (corps, mobs, etc.).

2. Restricted cybernetics are quite illegal for your characters, and cops tend to ask for registrations if they notice someone with obvious upgrades.

The question is...which upgrades are obvious? There's no detection ratings given to any of the restricted hardware, and many of them could be done in such a fashion as to be almost impossible to detect without some sort of scanner or invasive technique.

3. Many cybernetics are made of metal, particularly restricted ones. And since a lot of people carry weapons, metal detectors are quite popular.

Unfortunately, without something more precise than a metal detector, you're going to get a lot of false positives and some false negatives.

So don't think they are without drawbacks.

Those drawbacks need to be more properly described and reasoned out, I think. If you include too many drawbacks to cybernetics, you may as well make them a weakness.

As it is, I think there's just a touch too much stuff that's restricted, especially if you're going to make all of the restricted ones completely illegal to have. Levels of restriction and lesser-effectiveness civilian models come to mind, as well as liscensed cyborgs/cybernetics.

[Gerard_Paloma]

Updated the campaign page with CorSec, The Dark, and my character sheets. They'll change, most likely, between now and when we get started, but when that happens, just mail me the new copy and I'll put it up. Still waiting on a couple others.

And about the Cyber stuff, my character has restricted parts, but he just doesn't give a damn. If any pigs try to hassle him, he'll blow their heads clean off.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Hmm. Well if we're going to elevate the importance of technical skills AND make Education the limiter for all of them, and this implant halves the cost of them, I'd say that's damn useful indeed. So I'm thinking $20,000 should be the cost. It wouldn't be restricted, though.

Thus ensuring the intellectual elite all having them.

Well yeah

By the way, might it be possible to make different levels of restricted? That way you could have a combat version of the same system at the highest level of restriction (highest level of government/corperate goons only, with a killswitch installed to ensure no...shall we say, changes of heart).

Different levels based on what? Generally anything that boosts combat performance without a medical advantage is restricted to government/corporate goons. What other distinctions are there to make?

Btw, this is a good place to make a comment about cybernetics in case some of you think they're an easy ticket to godliness.

So far, the increases in costs from Mk1s to Mk2s pretty much ensures I'll be sticking with the Mk1's for character creation (as would most people), I would think.

That's basically the idea. Being able to start a fresh character loaded with all the brand newest and best cyber equipment is not what I had in mind.

One thing I have to comment on: The supersoldier eyes, I'm assuming that both eyes are replaced, and that the options between them are shared, correct?

Actually that's just for one eye. If you had both replaced, you'd get another Coordination bonus beacuse you could aim with both eyes open, but if you got different options, you'd have to keep one eye closed while you used an option only one eye had. Too disorienting to see in thermal with one eye and x-ray with another, for instance.

Here's a few things to think about:

1. You're using Trait points to get something that you can get later on without spending the points. You have to earn the money though, of course.

One thing that may help is a little something from CP2020. They had a rule that gave characters 10,000 Eurobucks for cybernetics, but made them totally obligated to an organization which provided those upgrades (corps, mobs, etc.).

Restricted cyber gear acquired with the traits are assumed to have been bought from the black market. That's a neat idea for a Magnitude 0 Trait though (one with equal advantages and disadvantages). Being a mobster would have a lot of perks and a lot of drawbacks. I think I'll add that.

2. Restricted cybernetics are quite illegal for your characters, and cops tend to ask for registrations if they notice someone with obvious upgrades.

The question is...which upgrades are obvious? There's no detection ratings given to any of the restricted hardware, and many of them could be done in such a fashion as to be almost impossible to detect without some sort of scanner or invasive technique.[/quote]
If it doesn't say it's obvious in the description, then it's not. Just use common sense (ie. don't run at your full movement speed and jump an 8 foot fence with your SS legs in front of a patrol car).

3. Many cybernetics are made of metal, particularly restricted ones. And since a lot of people carry weapons, metal detectors are quite popular.

Unfortunately, without something more precise than a metal detector, you're going to get a lot of false positives and some false negatives.

Right, so a smooth talker should have no problem

So don't think they are without drawbacks.

Those drawbacks need to be more properly described and reasoned out, I think. If you include too many drawbacks to cybernetics, you may as well make them a weakness.

The drawbacks are just what you would expect from an illegal piece of equipment, that's all. No worse than carrying a MAC-10 around, and that's pretty standard fare for CP setting.

As it is, I think there's just a touch too much stuff that's restricted, especially if you're going to make all of the restricted ones completely illegal to have. Levels of restriction and lesser-effectiveness civilian models come to mind, as well as liscensed cyborgs/cybernetics.

What did you have in mind? Ie. who would be able to purchase these downgraded cybernetics and who wouldn't?

[Hotfoot]

By the way, might it be possible to make different levels of restricted? That way you could have a combat version of the same system at the highest level of restriction (highest level of government/corperate goons only, with a killswitch installed to ensure no...shall we say, changes of heart).

Different levels based on what? Generally anything that boosts combat performance without a medical advantage is restricted to government/corporate goons. What other distinctions are there to make?

Based on levels of lethality/usefulness. Like how just owning a single-shot air rifle is different from owning a M-16A4. Sure, you need a gun liscense for both, but getting the liscense for the air rifle is much easier than the hoops you have to jump through for the M-16A4.

That's basically the idea. Being able to start a fresh character loaded with all the brand newest and best cyber equipment is not what I had in mind.

All I can say is: more. Not now, not right away, but eventually.

One thing I have to comment on: The supersoldier eyes, I'm assuming that both eyes are replaced, and that the options between them are shared, correct?

Actually that's just for one eye. If you had both replaced, you'd get another Coordination bonus beacuse you could aim with both eyes open, but if you got different options, you'd have to keep one eye closed while you used an option only one eye had. Too disorienting to see in thermal with one eye and x-ray with another, for instance.

Wait...that doesn't make any sense. There's no coordination bonus listed for just the one eye, just the options. Are you saying that having two of those things with the same options on each doubles their effective bonus? Considering the hideous cost of just one of those things, to say nothing of the upgrades, it's really kind of out there. The Supersoldier ears come in at $5,000 for both ears with options already installed. For both eyes, you've got to pay $26,000 for everything...five times as much. I'd say simplify it and make both eyes $10,000 with 3 options (as it seems to imply now) and $25,000 with 5 options (and make them obvious...goggles or visor style).

Restricted cyber gear acquired with the traits are assumed to have been bought from the black market. That's a neat idea for a Magnitude 0 Trait though (one with equal advantages and disadvantages). Being a mobster would have a lot of perks and a lot of drawbacks. I think I'll add that.

Mobster, government/corperate stooge, it's all good. Of course, then that tends to be the basis for the campaign, removing a little freedom, depending on how the GM wants to interpret it. Maybe make different versions of it, giving the player more money for cybernetics based on how much they owe the organization that gave it to them. First one would be occasional favors and maybe some odd jobs, second one would be fairly regular work, and the third one would make you their bitch.

If it doesn't say it's obvious in the description, then it's not. Just use common sense (ie. don't run at your full movement speed and jump an 8 foot fence with your SS legs in front of a patrol car).

Ah, okay, so there is still a significant apathy level in Night City. Just don't abuse the right in public, gotcha.

Right, so a smooth talker should have no problem

Fair enough.

The drawbacks are just what you would expect from an illegal piece of equipment, that's all. No worse than carrying a MAC-10 around, and that's pretty standard fare for CP setting.

Haha, true, true.

As it is, I think there's just a touch too much stuff that's restricted, especially if you're going to make all of the restricted ones completely illegal to have. Levels of restriction and lesser-effectiveness civilian models come to mind, as well as liscensed cyborgs/cybernetics.

What did you have in mind? Ie. who would be able to purchase these downgraded cybernetics and who wouldn't?

Well, some cybernetics could be fashionable to have, or the latest trend. Cybernetic eye replacements that shift color, can see into the Near-IR and UV ranges, maybe even thermo, can display computer screens and such directly into your brain, etc. Tougher skin for factory workers to keep medical costs down, lower-strength cybermuscles to let them work longer, etc. Implanted communications gear (cell jaw), etc.

Um...whoops. Lost my train of thought early that time. I'll keep that above bit for some more ideas as far as cybernetics go, but basically stuff like bouncers and security guards increasing strength and toughness through cybernetics.

Oh, by the way, I know this is going to open up a can of worms, but what about skillchips?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Different levels based on what? Generally anything that boosts combat performance without a medical advantage is restricted to government/corporate goons. What other distinctions are there to make?

Based on levels of lethality/usefulness. Like how just owning a single-shot air rifle is different from owning a M-16A4. Sure, you need a gun liscense for both, but getting the liscense for the air rifle is much easier than the hoops you have to jump through for the M-16A4.

I see. Well, I guess there could be downgraded versions of some of those things that can be obtained legally with a license. I don't see why not.

That's basically the idea. Being able to start a fresh character loaded with all the brand newest and best cyber equipment is not what I had in mind.

All I can say is: more. Not now, not right away, but eventually. [/quote]
hehe, ok

Actually that's just for one eye. If you had both replaced, you'd get another Coordination bonus beacuse you could aim with both eyes open, but if you got different options, you'd have to keep one eye closed while you used an option only one eye had. Too disorienting to see in thermal with one eye and x-ray with another, for instance.

Wait...that doesn't make any sense. There's no coordination bonus listed for just the one eye, just the options. Are you saying that having two of those things with the same options on each doubles their effective bonus? Considering the hideous cost of just one of those things, to say nothing of the upgrades, it's really kind of out there. The Supersoldier ears come in at $5,000 for both ears with options already installed. For both eyes, you've got to pay $26,000 for everything...five times as much. I'd say simplify it and make both eyes $10,000 with 3 options (as it seems to imply now) and $25,000 with 5 options (and make them obvious...goggles or visor style).

You're right. For some reason I thought there was an inherent Coordination bonus. I changed it so it makes it clear that it's both eyes. I'm not too keen on the visor or goggles idea, though. I mean, there's nothing cybernetic about that. Why bother with a visor or goggles you can never take off instead of just buying a visor or normal set of goggles that does the same thing?

Restricted cyber gear acquired with the traits are assumed to have been bought from the black market. That's a neat idea for a Magnitude 0 Trait though (one with equal advantages and disadvantages). Being a mobster would have a lot of perks and a lot of drawbacks. I think I'll add that.

Mobster, government/corperate stooge, it's all good. Of course, then that tends to be the basis for the campaign, removing a little freedom, depending on how the GM wants to interpret it. Maybe make different versions of it, giving the player more money for cybernetics based on how much they owe the organization that gave it to them. First one would be occasional favors and maybe some odd jobs, second one would be fairly regular work, and the third one would make you their bitch.

I liked the mobster idea, but why does it have to be tied into cybernetics?

If it doesn't say it's obvious in the description, then it's not. Just use common sense (ie. don't run at your full movement speed and jump an 8 foot fence with your SS legs in front of a patrol car).

Ah, okay, so there is still a significant apathy level in Night City. Just don't abuse the right in public, gotcha.

Right. I mean, the whole idea of cybernetics is that you look normal. You can get a set of goggles with the same IR, X-ray and other stuff as SS eyes for a lot less, but everyone will be able to see that you're wearing expensive goggles.

What did you have in mind? Ie. who would be able to purchase these downgraded cybernetics and who wouldn't?

Well, some cybernetics could be fashionable to have, or the latest trend. Cybernetic eye replacements that shift color, can see into the Near-IR and UV ranges, maybe even thermo, can display computer screens and such directly into your brain, etc. Tougher skin for factory workers to keep medical costs down, lower-strength cybermuscles to let them work longer, etc. Implanted communications gear (cell jaw), etc.

Um...whoops. Lost my train of thought early that time. I'll keep that above bit for some more ideas as far as cybernetics go, but basically stuff like bouncers and security guards increasing strength and toughness through cybernetics.

I can see your point. The cosmetic/fashion stuff is implied, and doesn't have to be explicity in the rules. I put the links to those sites you sent me in a recent post for ideas about more minor cybernetics like that. The lower grade strength boosters and whatnot is a good idea.

Oh, by the way, I know this is going to open up a can of worms, but what about skillchips?

I don't like the idea of skillchips. What's the point spending XP to learn how to do things if you can just pop a chip in? And it doesn't fit with the campaign anyway. Processors that help your brain deal with certain types of information or a hard drive to store your memories is one thing. A skillchip that instantly lets you know how to do something is a lot more advanced. More advanced than the technology level in the campaign.

[Hotfoot]

I see. Well, I guess there could be downgraded versions of some of those things that can be obtained legally with a license. I don't see why not.

Excellent.

You're right. For some reason I thought there was an inherent Coordination bonus. I changed it so it makes it clear that it's both eyes. I'm not too keen on the visor or goggles idea, though. I mean, there's nothing cybernetic about that. Why bother with a visor or goggles you can never take off instead of just buying a visor or normal set of goggles that does the same thing?

Style, for one. Plus, with a visor setup, you could actually get a wider range of vision depending on how far back it wraps around your head.

I liked the mobster idea, but why does it have to be tied into cybernetics?

It doesn't. Congrats, new weakness.

Right. I mean, the whole idea of cybernetics is that you look normal. You can get a set of goggles with the same IR, X-ray and other stuff as SS eyes for a lot less, but everyone will be able to see that you're wearing expensive goggles.

How expensive would these sorts of goggle be, exactly? Also, how about custom "shades" that have 1-2 options? You know. For style.

I can see your point. The cosmetic/fashion stuff is implied, and doesn't have to be explicity in the rules. I put the links to those sites you sent me in a recent post for ideas about more minor cybernetics like that. The lower grade strength boosters and whatnot is a good idea.

Muwahaha...

I don't like the idea of skillchips. What's the point spending XP to learn how to do things if you can just pop a chip in? And it doesn't fit with the campaign anyway. Processors that help your brain deal with certain types of information or a hard drive to store your memories is one thing. A skillchip that instantly lets you know how to do something is a lot more advanced. More advanced than the technology level in the campaign.

Fair enough.