Your ideal NR OOB?

[phongn]

Okay, you're on ADM Ackbar's staff, and after the mess of the Black Fleet Crisis where the NRDF performed pretty badly against the heavy fleet combatants of the enemy, the NRDF has been given a larger budget to protect the Republic. Thus, how would you go about creating an NR OOB?

A few groundrules
1. Assume you do not have the knowledge of the upcoming YV invasion.
2. Assume that Marina's estimate for the Imperial Starfleet is accurate.
3. Assume that while the Senate will give you a generous budget, it won't allow massive fleets like the old Imperial Starfleet.
4. Assume that the "new class" design orthodoxy has been discredited in favor of the more classical "big ship" design school.
5. Assume that yes, heavy bombers like the K-Wing are useful.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Battleships/Commandships: Strident/Viscount-class Star Defenders

Battlecruisers: Mediator-class

Heavy Cruisers: Upgraded MC90s

Cruisers: Refitted ISD Is (the NR should have oodles of these things, in fact, even though we don't see it, I believe the majority of the heavy ships in the NRDF should be captured ISDs; rip out a lot of the troop carrying ability and armor-carrying to replace with more power generators, reinforce the superstructure to accept an additional HTL in place of HIC and use extra power to also accept a redundant Mon Cal-type shield system; if possible cut back on engine power and squeeze to put another HTL in).

Troop/Armor Carriers: Refitted ISD IIs (again, should have oodles; remove HTLs, replace power generators for guns with lots of dropship hangars and troop barracks and armor).

Heavy Interdictors: Dominator-class Interdictor Star Destroyer

Destroyers: Republic-class Star Destroyer

Fighter Carrier: Endurance-class Carrier

Escort Destroyer: Nebula/Defender-class Star Destroyer

Frigates: Bothan Assault Cruisers

Picket Ships: Various Small Designs

[CmdrWilkens]

Well Phong for starters I think you are completely incorrect, ti was the tactics that needed updating. Hell the gunship at ILC-905 essentially held off 2 thrusterships then counterpunched destroying one of them before succumbing. That is from a vessel that is the weak sister to the cruisers and heavy ships occupying a lot of the BFC-era OOB.

Anyway I'm assuming as a start several things:

1) From BFC they will realize that X-Wings have outlived their useful lives as the primary fleet interceptor. The E-Wing is a better desing for this role and should be the sole tool.

2) From BFC they will realize the continuing need for good recon assets, however they need to be assets that can get in and out thus the A-Wnig needs to be adapted

3) If you use bombers you better have enough of them to survive the winnowing of opponents CapShip fire

4) Missile offense and anti-missile defense gives a huge advantage

5) Senate oversight will continue to limit the size of the mobile fleet. However local defense fleets will almost certianly grow so that each sector will probably have at least a full squadron of Cruiser-class vessels.

6) I'll also assume that recruiting and experience levels will be high enough after this victory to allow an expansion of the mobile fleet elements.

Thus NRF (mobile) OOB

10 Fleets:

Flag Task Force:
Flagship: Viscount-class Star Defender (1x)
2x Battlecruiser (Mediator-class)
4x Heavy Cruiser (MC90)
4x Fleet Carrier (Endurance - class)
8x Cruiser (Defender-class Star Destroyer)
8x Light cruiser (Republic-class Star Destroyer)
12x Frigate (Bothan Assault Crusier)
12x Gunship (Vanguard's class)
6x Support Vesel (Tenders, Supply Ships, etc)

4x Support Task Force
Flaghsip: Mediator-class Battlecruiser
1x Battlecruiser (Mediator-class)
4x Heavy Cruiser (MC90)
4x Fleet Carrier (Endurance - class)
8x Cruiser (Defender-class Star Destroyer)
8x Light cruiser (Republic-class Star Destroyer)
12x Frigate (Bothan Assault Crusier)
12x Gunship (Vanguard's class)
6x Support Vesel (Tenders, Supply Ships, etc)


This gives the offensive wing of the NRF:
10 Viscount-class Star Defenders
100 Mediator-class Battelcruisers
200 MC90-class Heavy Cruisers
200 Endurance-class Fleet Carriers
400 Defender-class Star Destroyers
400 Republic-class Star Destroyers
600 BAC
600 Gunship
300 Support Vessels

For the CGL vessels and up none of them has fewer than 40 heavy guns which should be rather on the side of sufficient. Also most ofthe vessels (given the lessons of BFC) should be outfitted with a pretty good collection of CM-nine missiles with which to blast down the enemy at some extra range.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The fleets need destroyers, escorts.

[His Divine Shadow]

Can't I just build an Eclipse and blast the Worldships to hell? :p

[phongn]

Can't I just build an Eclipse and blast the Worldships to hell? :p

No.

[phongn]

1) From BFC they will realize that X-Wings have outlived their useful lives as the primary fleet interceptor. The E-Wing is a better desing for this role and should be the sole tool.

Sounds good, but wouldn't Incom (or whoever produces the X-Wing these days) attempt to come out with a newer T-65 design? They might be able to get a hard sell based on the existing logsitics base. E-Wings aren't cheap things.

2) From BFC they will realize the continuing need for good recon assets, however they need to be assets that can get in and out thus the A-Wnig needs to be adapted

Perhaps an A-Wing with uprated engines and a newer sensor package?

[Illuminatus Primus]

FriTech makes the E-Wing.

[phongn]

FriTech makes the E-Wing.

I know.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Aarrghh....I meant they make the X-Wing too (they're responsible for the T-65Js [XJ X-Wing] and T-65JA3s [XJ3 X-Wing]).

[CmdrWilkens]

1) From BFC they will realize that X-Wings have outlived their useful lives as the primary fleet interceptor. The E-Wing is a better desing for this role and should be the sole tool.

Sounds good, but wouldn't Incom (or whoever produces the X-Wing these days) attempt to come out with a newer T-65 design? They might be able to get a hard sell based on the existing logsitics base. E-Wings aren't cheap things.

I see a couple different answers to this.
1) They MIGHT be hard heads insisting on the combat relevance of the X-Wing despite the fact that it was clearly outclassed. Thus they will use political pressure to try and keep the durn thng in rotation. the result would be that I would have to maintain a large number of X-Wing units in the support units (the sector fleets but no the primary one)
2) They might try to redesign the T-65 or come out with an entirely new design which better utilizes the existing supply base in which case the new vehicle will be evaluated on its merits.
3) They remain content with getting a liscense to produce E-Wings while working slowly on the net generation of fighters.

As to the cost of the E-Wig it will look small against the cost of procuring all the new CapShips so sneaking the funing into the budget should be pretty easy. Furthermore in the heated political climate a moe towards newer companies could be useful politically.

2) From BFC they will realize the continuing need for good recon assets, however they need to be assets that can get in and out thus the A-Wnig needs to be adapted

Perhaps an A-Wing with uprated engines and a newer sensor package?

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What are the Viscount and Mediator?

[The Dark]

Where (or what) is Marina's estimate?

[Illuminatus Primus]

What are the Viscount and Mediator?

The Mediator is a new Mon Calamari Battlecruiser that is believed to be larger and more powerful than the ISD (think Home One).

The Viscount-class Star Defender is a new Mon Calamari Battleship, that greatly outperforms even the Mediator.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Where (or what) is Marina's estimate?

Fanfic Archive's Essay Section

[Chris OFarrell]

I don't think the Black Fleet ships did THAT badly. The major problems were tactics used and the supperior shield technology of the Thrustships that made them astonishingly hard to crack, you had to deliver an absurd amount of ordinance on target VERY quickly to overcome its regeneration rate for a ship of its size.

Personaly I'd keep the existing structure and modify it. The fast and flexable firepower works, especialy with a technology edge. However when someone comes in who has a technology edge over you, it comes up somewhat wanting. They just need some heavier power to backstop their fleet when its needed.

A task force is from memory is a Fleet Carrier or Star Destroyer as Flagship. Then a couple of escort carriers, a group of Assault Cruisers providing the main punch with a screening force of Escort Frigates and Gunships.

Now I'd change it a bit. I'd double the gunships and escort frigates and mix in a group of six lancer class frigates. Just so you need less screening from your starfighters and can use them more effectivly as an attacking force. Have a much heavier ship as flagship. A true battleship. Perhaps an improved MC-90. Something that can take an ungodly amount of firepower but can aslo give it back. Think a pocket SSD. Then I'd add a squadron of ships like the Bothan Assault Cruiser (if they are on the drawing board already) or something like them.

So at the end of all this we would have:

1 X Flagship Battleship (Improved MC-90?).
12 X Bothan Assault Cruiser type ships.
2 X Escort Carriers.
8 X Escort Frigates.
8 X Gunships.
6 X Lancer Frigates.

Thats for the cap ship force. I'd also reconfigure the fighters. Get the NR to either chose the X-Wing or the E-Wing. One or the other, not both. If Icom can get that NJO era X-Wing into production, then thats good. Otherwise, forget the base X-Wing. Its just too old.

With the increased hanger space from the new ships you've got, I'm going to fiddle a little. Keep 40% of the fighters as E-Wings/X-Wings. Of the remaining 60%. 30% would be K-Wings. They work quite well enough when used in good numbers. 20% would be A-Wings of an improved class. The NR fleet was realy lacking in recon assets, forced to used modified X-Wings for recon work. I'd much rather have improved (and far faster/smaller) A-Wings for any deep recon work. They also would serve as the interceptor to the X/E-Wing space supperority fighter. The final 10% would be B-Wings. I don't know where they vanished to in the Black Fleet Crisis, but they are a very useful weapon. They are more heavily defended then the K-Wings and far more able to survive a dogfight situation. Using the two bomber clases together will give a much greater survival rate. As well a free up the E/X-Wings from escort duty in such numbers.

In addition to that you have the recon drones and such as well of course.

I'd keep the anti missile systems on the NR cap ships. They appeared to be like some kind of super Arena system. Always useful.

The heavy missile salvos were a useful thing. The Bothan Assault Cruisers keep this pattern going. But I'd also look at refitting the escort frigates with a number of heavy missile launchers to give them a heavy punch. Forget their fighter capacity, there is already plenty of that in the task force.


Then group these task forces into fleets of five. And have ten of these fleets. That way your realy just improving on the OOB, not breaking the bank or going over the top.

If at all possible, in a black part of the budget, build a mirror fleet of this size as well, load it with droids and dump the fleet into some part of deep space where no-one will ever find them. Make the majority of the ships designed for a life of sitting shut down in deep space. I mean the Kantana fleet survived in deep space for god knows how long AFTER running battles inside the ship and reamaining on standby. Make sure the place you select for them is grossly unlikly to be found by any pirates or anything (and just in case, make a few of the ships active droid crewed ships to blast any pirate who does not transmit the recognition codes after arriving). Have a department of NRI check in on them every six months or so.

In essence, keep it secret. Keep it safe. Keep its construction absurdly secret. Which doesn't appear an enormous problem in the SW universe. Have only the most trusted NR personnel used to move it to its new location and check on it.

But this would allow for the NR to double its fleet size in a matter of weeks if a situation like they were in during the Thrawn Duology came about, if they didn't have enough ships to go around and they are streached.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That was the unrefined version. I later edited it, as here:

The official revision of the Imperial Starfleet and Navy Upper Limit size estimates is now in. Herein I will admit to, albeit most vaguely, attempt to give measure to the larger possible size of the Galactic Empire's Starfleet and Navy.

The following figures are based on the WEG "One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships" statement in the primary sourcebook. Specific types listed therein are rended down to vague class generalizations of broadly "Saxonian" style.

Sector Group: 2 Mobile Deepdocks; 120 very heavy repair ships; 2,260 noncombatant resupply ships; 240 torpedo spheres; 28,372 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 11,902 heavy frigates/light destroyers 450- 1,000 meters long; 80 heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long.

This calculation is using the maximum augmented figures for a sector group as listed in the Imperial Sourcebook.

We can presume that since the book is set immediately after Yavin, and considering Imperial manufacturing capabilities as based on the second Death Star, that these fleet levels could have been reached in each Sector Group. The total tally shall follow.

Sector Groups (Total): 3,200 mobile deepdocks, 192,000 very heavy repair ships; 3,616,000 noncombatant resupply ships; 384,000 torpedo spheres; 45,395,200 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 19,043,200 heavy frigates/light destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 128,000 heavy Destroyers 1,001- 1,600 meters long.

Based on the 1,026 Sector estimate from the Phantom Menace (Number of saucers in the senate building), and giving it a total of 1,600 Sector Groups. This in turn is based on a rough estimate of the number of Sector Groups assigned to "Oversectors" (Which can vary from two to a score, and the number of Grand Moffs is implied to be not unsizeable), 250 Sector Groups hidden in the Unknown Regions, those hidden in the Deep Core, and any additional sectors that might have been added since the time of The Phantom Menace -- We know that the Empire, unlike the Republic, engaged openly in expansion and added numerous territories quite openly in several regions. Obviously the largest increase is the direct official statement in Vision of the Future saying the Empire has hidden away the military forces of 250 sectors in the Unknown Regions.. If not colonized that many sectors outright!

Colonies, Protectorates and Governorship defence fleets: 225,000,000 (Alternatively: 300,000,000) Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 225,000,000 (Alternatively: 300,000,000) Non-Hyperdrive equipped light picket ships; 50,000,000 multipurpose defence stations.

These figures use the Bakuran defence force of two 350 meter light frigates (Carrack Cruisers) and four 125 meter gunships, along with one multipurpose orbital station (As per the Truce at Baruka novel), and a patrol group of 6 IPV-1 picket ships that was mentioned in the Truce at Bakura sourcebook by WEG. It should be noted that Bakura is in fact a less than average colony/protectorate. It has one industry of particular interest, but not major (It produced novelty repulsorlift equipment), and a small population, less than a billion... 400-650 million, IIRC. Irrelevant, virtually, on the scale of galactic civilization with planets like Coruscant that have a population of 650 trillion beings.

If the Galactic equivalent of a small town in Alaska that makes custom landrovers is guarded by that force, I would consider it rather conservative to assume all other minor planets also have such protection. It is, however, a vast assumption. We know that other planets of a similiar nature were unguarded in other books, but for the most part we only see them post-Endor, when the warlords were massing fleets and expending them fighting each other on a vast scale. Our ability to rate Imperial defence forces is better typified by what is shown pre-Endor, only. Bakura represents a good baseline; other examples could and will be used to improve the figure. For major worlds, like Coruscant and other core worlds, I used the two Golan-IIIs as a firepower representation; this being based on the two guarding Coruscant that were presumably captured from the Empire, during The Krytos Trap. The heavy Destroyers (ISDs) are based on the assumption that the two left behind by Ysanne Isard were part of Coruscant's defence fleet. There was no reason to leave them behind otherwise; considering how few ships she had, she needed them badly. It would only make sense to leave them behind if they were part of Coruscant's traditional defence fleet, and if the crews, perhaps part of a local naval militia, would have been unreliable or simply refused to have followed her away from the world. The height of illogic would have typified the act otherwise. This figure also has limited support from several comics as well that suggest at least one ISD or heavy destroyer type is stationed above many other major worlds at all times. The rest of the fleet is assumed to be identical to that in size and ship-types to a colony world's fleet for the maximum conservativism, assuming that the heavier platforms and ships are added on for the member worlds to that standard fleet. Should computer games be added as official material, the number of platforms could be increased by around x3.

Member World defence fleets: 2,000,000 heavy Destroyers 1,001- 1,600 meters long; 6,000,000 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 6,000,000 Non-hyperdrive equipped light picket ships; 2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations (Or firepower equivalent in larger number of smaller stations.); 1,000,000 multipurpose defence stations.



Imperial Navy:

25,000 heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long; 5,000 light/medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters long; 5,000 heavy Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Carriers/Battleships/Commandships 5,000 meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated Max superlaser equipped: 250.) Also: 6+ Torpedo Spheres.

Beginning basis in the "25,000 ISD" claim from WEG for the Imperial Navy. This claim was highly odd, because WEG's own figures suggest a minimum of 128,000 ISDs in their own Order of Battle. Likewise was the claim that only 6 Torpedo Spheres were in service bizzare when the Order of Battle suggested potentially over 300,000 Torpedo Spheres (Which made me conclude the idea of finding weaknesses in planetary shields was hogwash; with one bombardment fleet and one assault fleet, you'd have 200 Torpedo spheres, IE, 10,000 proton torpedoes a salvo, firing at the shields. That would batter them down using pure firepower, especially if the other armed ships joined in.). I chose a different interpretation. The 6 Torpedo Spheres and 25,000 ISDs are in the "Imperial Navy" according to WEG. In the Canon movies, it's always called the "Imperial Starfleet".
Considering this difference, in which you seem to have references to the Imperial Starfleet, and the context there refers to a body which is just that - the Imperial Starfleet as a space going naval force - one has to think that perhaps it is something different from the Imperial Navy, which may be a specific arm, something like the Grand Armada, a centralized and elite force of heavy ships.

Working out from this I concluded that the Imperial Starfleet has far more ISDs and Torpedo Spheres than those listed, while there is a group within the Imperial Starfleet specifically devoted to heavy combat engagements as opposed to "Coast Guard" duties that the Sector Groups and planetary defence forces do. This fleet contains the 25,000 ISDs and 6 Torpedo Spheres (perhaps more by the time of the Battle of Endor). It quite possibly also contains the following ships:

A minimum of 5,000 ships larger than ISDs, which is based on the five ISD escort for the Executor. We don't have any reason to assume that Lord Vader's squadron was a-typical, and it seemed to be constituted in a normal fashion, patrolling for rebels like any other part of the fleet might do. It also maintained that concentration during the time it was seen.

However, according to one computer game (Which are official according to Curtis Saxton's interpretation; by the rules of the FAQ, disregard the 10,000 figure and use the 5,000 figure), a ESB Arcade Game, another ship larger than an Imperator participated at Hoth, namely, in the search for the Falcon, though it was not at the initial attack. (It is possible it had a slower Hyperdrive, and in Lord Vader's haste, he left it behind.) I concluded then that three of the ISDs would be the Executor's escort, and two that of the other ship. From this, I derived the 10,000 heavy ship figure, split evenly between light and medium cruisers and vessels larger than that. The Six torpedo spheres are in three bombard lines of two spheres each, with the potential for more by the Battle of Endor. The superlaser guesstimate was based on a comparison of Sovereign/Eclipse and Executor numbers, and assumes that Superlaser equipped non-battlestation vessels would exist pre-Endor. They may in fact still be necessary to bring some of the higher-end firepower calculations in line with the AOTC:ICS firepower data, despite the size of this fleet, which is one of the reasons I included that for consideration.

Totals for the Imperial Starfleet: 3,200 mobile deepdocks, 192,000 very heavy repair ships; 3,616,000 noncombatant resupply ships; 384,006 torpedo spheres; 276,395,200 (Or 351,395,200) Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 231,000,000 (alternatively: 306,000,000) Non-hyperdrive equipped light picket ships; 19,043,200 heavy frigates/light Destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 2,153,000 heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long; 5,000 light/medium Cruisers 1,601 meters long to 4,999 meters long; 5,000 heavy Cruisers / Battlecruisers / Carriers / Battleships / Commandships 5,000 meters to 17,600+ meters long (Estimated max superlaser equipped: 250; Percentage of known Executors against Eclipses/Sovereigns as a comparison); 51,000,000 multipurpose defence stations; 2,000,000 Golan-III Battlestations; Other Support ships / Stations / Outposts: Unknown. Possibly as many as three times that number of defence outposts, based on the computer games, or even more, but that is not admissible evidence at ASVS at least, so they have been left out.

This is everything added together, and separated by ship type, as you can see. The total number of combat ships is around: 378,000,000 of all types (Rounded), roughly, plus 306,000,000 non-hyperspace capable picket ships, still capable of fighting of course, just no hyperdrives; some 51,000,000 platforms, plus many more we do not have accurate figures for. Also, around 4,000,000 resupply and support ships that are unarmed, and probably a lot more we have no accurate figures for, and finally 3,200 mobile Deepdocks, plus all the non-mobile construction / repair facilities that we cannot accurately guess of in total numbers.

Here's the stunning conclusion: In a total of all Hyperspace capable combat starships over 100 meters in length, divided among the 51,000,000 potential inhabited worlds of the WEG quote, we get an average of around 7, that's right, only seven ships PER INHABITED PLANET. I sincerely hope this gives you a true sense of the scope and scale of the Galactic Empire. In terms of an invasion force, only the Imperial Navy, with its 6+ Torpedo Spheres, 25,000 heavy Destroyers, and 5,000-10,000 Cruiser / Battleship / Carrier / Command rated ships would be realistically capable of entering and invading another galaxy.

The other 378,000,000 combat starships would have to stay in their home galaxy to police it against rebels, pirates, smugglers, terrorists, and potential yet highly unlikely enemy raids from the invaded galaxy or the unknown regions (Or, of course, a Vong arrival). Considering that the Imperial Navy is the only truly mobile force out of all these ships, the Galactic Empire would have essentially zero offensive capacity in its own galaxy during an invasion; only defence, except for the direct pacification of known, rebelling planets, and small operations within sectors. Any large scale offensive against the rebels or Unknown Region species would be impossible with the Imperial Navy committed to another galaxy; the Starfleet would just have to hold the line until the pacification either succeeded or failed and the Navy returned, or what was left of it. Of course, this assumes that the galaxy to be pacified requires the commitment of the entire Navy.

Essentially, the Empire is a massive organization in terms of pure numbers; but the necessity of guarding 1,000,000 major planets and 50,000,000 minor planets cuts so considerably into these numbers that no more than on the order of 25,000 destroyers, 5,000 cruisers, and 5,000 capital ships, supported by 6+ mobile bombardment platforms, could be used for an invasion, or rallied in one place to stop one. This is probably the fleet under Vader's command that was far-flung throughout the galaxy looking for the Rebels. He likely chose one region of space for himself, with the Grand Admirals taking the others, or administrating the Starfleet, which is unlikely considering it is an asset for the military governors, not the true navy with the above ships. One should think of the Persian system of governing, with Satrapies under the Great King, and each Satrap ruling sub-governors in turn, and all of them capable of mustering their own military forces, to understand the Galactic Empire in the proper context. Of course, local area ships could be, in an emergency, gathered to stand with this fleet, but such is likely to be necessary. After the collapse of the Empire, the individual Moffs and their ilk took control of the portions of the Starfleet and fought to the death, while the Grand Admirals also turned warlord, and more ships were hidden in the Deep Core for the clone of the Emperor, explaining the destruction of this once awesome fleet, through fratricidal combat.

Note that I welcome revision to these calcs, and they are admittedly on shaky ground, but the simple facts are that they match up with the known evidence about the size of the Empire, and a fleet necessary to patrol and defend said Empire, and also explain the huge inconsistencies in both official and canon material. Finally, there is one last thing to note. The Empire built the Death Star. An object that, when complete, would have massed as much as fifty billion Galaxy class Starships. Now, granted, an ISD masses considerably more than a GCS, but not remotely enough to make these figures implausible -- For the whole mass of this fleet is quite possibly less than that of the two death stars combined!

378,000,000 combat starships and 306,000,000 sublight picket starships may then indeed be a conservative estimate. It assumes that the average mass of each of those ships is somewhere on the order of seven (7) times the mass of a Galaxy Class Starship... If the entire Imperial Warship production line is only comparable to the completed Death Star II! Considering that 306,000,000 are 150 meter long sublight pickets, this is obviously not the case. Certainly some of the starships will be massive, but none larger than an Eclipse, and those are limited to some 5,000 capital ships even approaching that size. I would say that this fleet's existence is made reasonable by the existence of the Death Star II alone, if for no other reason.

Incidentally, the total number of crewers required for this fleet comes out as very roughly 40% of the population of Coruscant. (Assuming the accepted figure of 650 trillion people). Considering the number of worlds the Empire has.. Even with an army, they're still ridiculously under-militarized.

Again, the comparison with the Persian Empire fits. The Grand Moffs are like Satraps, the Moffs like the regional governors, and then the system governors under them like local chieftans or rulers of cities. In every case they were capable of raising their own militaries by their own expense, and had a duty to do so in time of war. They could even declare war on their own, and conduct some diplomacy with foreign powers. Obviously the Empire is more centralized, but the idea of the Starfleet consisting of a huge number of ships under a largely decentralized organization, with an elite central core, like the Immortals and Apple Guards of the central Persian Empire, can best be understood in this context. The Grand Moffs and Moffs, then, are kept in line by their rivalries, and by their mutual hatred for each other - or by fear of assassination (What do you think Mara Jade was for?) or outright acts. As a last resort, the military force of the concentrated navy, and those Moffs or Grand Moffs which hate one who should revolt, would serve to overwhelm.

Indeed, the Emperor, it has been stated in official material, appointed people as Moffs and Grand Moffs who hated each other's guts. This supports my theory, as having all the Moffs and Grand Moffs hating each other would make it easier for the Emperor to rule, as they would have only him to turn to, and could not form pacts among themselves. Also, this supports the Starfleet/Navy separation contention. In A New Hope, it's commented that the Rebellion poses a threat "To your Starfleet" but not to "This Battlestation". This is at a meeting held by the Grand Moff Tarkin. I would think that, since the word "Starfleet" is used in the movie in cases like this, while Navy is only seen around the 25,000 ISD figure, that it provides further support: The Admiral in question was the commander of Grand Moff Tarkin's personal Starfleet, which was separate from the Navy, and hence called a Starfleet. Rather simple, when you consider it. That's why it was referred to as a Starfleet there, but in the books, especially around the 25,000 ISD figures, it's called a navy.

As for the argument that the WEG stats I am using reflect goals of the Imperial Starfleet, not what was actually completed, consider this: the WEG Imperial Sourcebook is set immediately after the Battle of Yavin. Remember the speed at which an object the mass of 50 billion Galaxy class Starships was built... In six months, 25 billion GCS masses were assembled by the Empire. And all I'm arguing is that the Empire could have built on the order of 120 million starships in 3.5 years... Far less expenditure than the Death Star, even were they to mass a hundred times the mass of a GCS, each, which the average Imperial starship, built for customs and picket duty, obviously does not.

(I assume the other 258 million Hyperdrive equipped ships were already in service based on the ratios between minimum and optimal sizes for the sector fleets. Even if none of the non-hyperspace equipped ships had been built yet, their total is such that they and the 120 million starships in 3.5 years would still fall well below the production capability of the Empire as required for the DS II.)

Observing this, it seems that the industrial capability of the Empire is more than up to the task, and the Empire moreover needs these ships to police its borders. The evidence is rather circumstantial, I admit, but I would contend it does point towards the fleet size I have estimated above.

I would request such data and suggestions as might refine the estimates.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Why are their 2 million destroyers but only 10 thousand cruiser+?

[Pablo Sanchez]

Why are their 2 million destroyers but only 10 thousand cruiser+?

Because more than 90% of the total OOB, by Marina's conception, is intended for local defense against piracy, raiding, brush wars. Maintaining for these purposes any ship bigger than a destroyer is money down the drain.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I think that their Fleets looked adequate for more normal duties. I prefer not to disperse the battleships.

I'd merely add some backup. I'd start by adding One More Fleet. Instead of Task Forces, I'd use the Division-Squadron-Force division. A change in terminology also indicates a change in function. Working from down under:

About 500 SDs or SCs (draw them from every taskforce - a mix of MC90, MC80B, MC80a, Defenders, Republics, and good old ISDs)

For the ISDs, like some others said, take out most of the troop capacity, and hotwire the reactor or replace it. New Republic doctrine does not require very long deployments. The net result would be a reduction of long-term endurance from 6 years to 6 months. Oh, and see what they can do about putting all the HTLs on the centerline - far enough apart that all can fire forward without mutual interference.

These 500 are led by 100 leaders - Allegiance Star Destroyers might do nicely here if KDY still builds them. Or maybe we can promote some MC90s to this position. We now have 100 divisions.

Those 100 are in turn led by 20 or so Mediators. We now have 20 squadrons.

Which go into 5 Viscounts - we now have 5 flotillas. And which all go to the Fleet Head - one big, beautiful, black, shiny Executor class Star Destroyer in all of its 11 mile glory.

I chose to special designate them as Fleet-Flotilla-Squadron-Division rather than the Fleet-Battlegroup-Taskforce divide for a reason. Put simply, this fleet is not meant to be taken to battle alone - notice the complete lack of light support vessels. A task force implies a well-balanced group. These are not.

That fleet will be GREAT for show-of-force missions if the NR wants to - I don't care who you are, but 500+ SD or bigger vessels would just be impressive. But for combat...

For combat, they are attachments. For normal peacekeeping missions, the normal Patrol Fleets (even now denuded of their SDs,) should do just fine. In fact, some might be happy that the regular Patrol Fleets are denuded of a large part of their offensive firepower.

But when the heavy battles come, these units are attached. For instance, "4th fleet is to Attack Vong System X. Attach a SD Division to it." They are the "Artillery Army" that's committed to the hardest campaigns, gets all the scorn as moneywasters during peacetime, and maybe, just maybe, would prove their worth someday.

Now, who in the New Republic can command that fleet. He doesn't need any peacekeeping skills - after all, when this Fleet goes even in detachments, the time for peace is over.

[phongn]

Troop/Armor Carriers: Refitted ISD IIs (again, should have oodles; remove HTLs, replace power generators for guns with lots of dropship hangars and troop barracks and armor).

Actually, looking this over, do we actually need to refit ISDs as troop transports? AFAIK the Republic has dedicated troop transports already.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not at the scale I'm talking about. A refitted ISD should be able to haul a good 100k troops, I think.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Use megafreighters and pack the troops in to berthings ten-high in subdivided cargo compartments with others reserved for oxygen equipment and food. It'll suck real bad to get sent somewhere on one but you could probably carry a few million troops aboard a single ship.

[Darth Fanboy]

Even without Knowledge of the Vong, or other disasters taking place after HoT, I would advocate the construction of one Remodeled Eclipse Star destroyer, this Eclipse would have a more PC design and possibly a more PC designation to fit in in the political climate.

The New Republic was always being challenged because people perceived them as weak. No one with an Eclipse SSD is percieved as weak. Although the republic wanted to avoid becoming another Empire it still needed to find a balance between centralied authoirty and loose confederation that it never had. That Eclipse, combined with a Dominator Class Interdictor on teir own would be enough for me.

If ossible I would advocate the contstruction of the Pulsar Station, which as many of you know is essentially a scaled down Death star designed for use against Capital ships as opposed to planets. It never existed and its existence was more fabrication than anything, but it makes sense, The new Republic relied to heavily on people like Wedge Antilles and Admiral Ackbar to win their fleet encounters as opposed to firepower, which would keep enemies in line, make populations feel safe, and dissuade enemies.

[Kuja]

I wouldn't bother asking for an Eclipse, the Senate would never go for it.

I'd try persuading them to approve a new run of Executor-class ships (or at least Allegiance-class) from KDY, backed up by the various cruiser types of Mon Calamari, and increased orders of E-wings and K-wings.