Base Delta Zero Orbit

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-10-12 10:40pm

What's the optimal orbital altitude for a Base Delta Zero operation, assuming a target identical to Earth and one ISD?

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2003-10-12 10:55pm

I don't think that it matters much, as long as it's kept within a reasonable range.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-10-12 11:46pm

High orbit I suppose, though dialogue in ESB indicates they could conduct a bombardment from outside the system.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-12 11:52pm

Ender wrote:High orbit I suppose, though dialogue in ESB indicates they could conduct a bombardment from outside the system.

Which dialogue would that be?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-10-13 12:19am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Which dialogue would that be?

VEERS: "My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. ComScan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

VADER: "The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-10-13 12:22am

The NJO further supports that with the bombardment of a YV worldship from a ship in the outskirts of the Coruscant system. If they can hit a ship, they can sure as hell hit a planet.

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-10-13 12:49am

phongn wrote:The NJO further supports that with the bombardment of a YV worldship from a ship in the outskirts of the Coruscant system. If they can hit a ship, they can sure as hell hit a planet.

Didn't that require a scout in-system or spotters on the ground feeding targeting information to the firing vessel?

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-10-13 01:09am

Agent R wrote:Didn't that require a scout in-system or spotters on the ground feeding targeting information to the firing vessel?

Doesn't matter: any information on the planet's position and orbit will be enough to hit it, and should be easily obtained with long-range scanners or through other means (navi-comp data?). A planet doesn't change course. As mentioned, if they can hit a starship, they can certainly hit a planet from the same range.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-13 01:24am

Lord Poe wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Which dialogue would that be?

VEERS: "My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. ComScan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

VADER: "The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

You really need to incorporate the Radio Drama and novel quotes too to get the full effect Wayne.

*goes off to dig in his archives for the quotes*

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-10-13 01:26am

OOOOOH I never really listened to it with that idea in mind. It all makes sense now!

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-13 01:27am

Here we go:

TESB novelization wrote:
Page 45

"My Lord," the general replied, choosing each word with care, "The fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com-scan has detecteda n energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment."

Page 46 Furious, he clenched his black-gloved hands into fists. "Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system."

"He felt surprise was a wiser-"
"He'sas clumsy as he is stupid," Vader cut in, breathing heavily. "A clean bombardment is impossible through their energy field. P repare your troops for a surface attack."

And the radio drama:

TESB Radio Drama wrote: Veers: “Com-scan has detected an energy field protecting Hoth, where our probe droid was destroyed. It is a defensive shield, strong enough to deflect any bombardment the starfleet can deliver.”

Vader: “Such a shield demands huge amounts of raw power. The Rebels cannot possibly operate it constantly. They are already alerted to our arrival. Admiral Ozzel Has brought the Starfleet out of lightspeed too close to Hoth.”

Veers: “He felt that the advantages of surprise and a close striking distance were more vital. There is a give and take in any battle plan my Lord.”

Vader: “Admiral Ozzel is as clumsy as he is stupid. This will be no easy victory.”

Veers: “No, Lord Vader. The Rebels are well entrenched in ice caverns. They have turned that part of hoth into a Fortress. But we have the troops and the ships. In the end we will crush them. “

Vader: “But what an idiotic waste of Imperial resources. A simple act of conquest now becomes a needless and costly battle. And tell me Veers do you regard that as wisdom?”

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-13 01:30am

I find it interesting that they suggest that the range Ozzel DID drop out of lightspeed - tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of kilometers in range it would seem, is considered a "close striking distance"

Especially since its suggested that the Imperials did not need that long to punch through the shields (again novels and radio drama) when they lowered them briefly to allow hte transports out -they suggested "split second" drops to no more than a couple seconds, at most.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-13 03:02am

While I'm tempted to concur without comment, I am constrained to point out that it is technically possible that Vader is referring to the planet/moon system, if Hoth has any natural moons. A planet and its moon are an astrophysical system, just not a star system.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-10-13 03:22am

I think Vader meant the planet/moon system. I recall that when they were trying to get the location of the rebel base in ANH they asked Leia to "Name the system" and she responded with the name of a planet, Dantooine. which leadsme to believe that the term "system", in SW, generally applies to that of a planet and its moons.

Bill Door · Post by **Bill Door** » 2003-10-13 10:59am

If there is 1 ISD, which does not use its engines, then the best orbit to use may be a low earth orbit (altitude ~160km), due to the greater orbital velocity. This will allow it to cover the ground more quickly even though less ground can be covered from its position.

However, this would take longer than the stated hours or minutes that 3 ISD's take to perform a BDZ. This means that they are doing powered orbits and so i dont know what the best orbit would be.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-13 11:39am

Darth Fanboy wrote:I think Vader meant the planet/moon system. I recall that when they were trying to get the location of the rebel base in ANH they asked Leia to "Name the system" and she responded with the name of a planet, Dantooine. which leadsme to believe that the term "system", in SW, generally applies to that of a planet and its moons.

I also always thought that Vader was refering to the planetary system of Hoth VI and not to the entire Hoth solar system (either that, or he was refering to the solar system and Ozzel exiting Hyperspace too close inside and blowing their cover, although that would imply that Death Squadron would be traveling the rest of the way with their main engines, which would be easier to detect, you would think).

But rather than assume that in SW the term "system" only applies to planetary systems, I think the overall evidence supports that the Basic word for "system" refers to both "star system" and "planetary system", much like it does in English.

In the ESB scene quoted above where Veers informs Vader of Ozzel's folly, the context of the word "system" seems to change. Veers first uses it in the solar sense ("...sixth planet of the Hoth system."). Vader then appears to use it refering to the planetary type ("...came out of lightspeed too close to the system."), and then again when transfering command to Piett ("...deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off the system.").

So what "system" refers to seems to depend on context.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-13 04:30pm

Darth Wong wrote:While I'm tempted to concur without comment, I am constrained to point out that it is technically possible that Vader is referring to the planet/moon system, if Hoth has any natural moons. A planet and its moon are an astrophysical system, just not a star system.

Does this help clarify?

"Far too soon for the comfot of the Alliance, the Imperial fleet arrived in the Hoth system. Rebel system space monitors spotted the fleet as soon as it emerged from hyperspace. While the fleet had ample asteroid cover in the outer regions of the system, the Imperials chose to make a highly visible entrance close to Hoth itself."

Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Stikes Back, page 23.

Contextually it should be noted that the evidence does in fact seem to suggest by canon alone that they meant the Hoth star system, but you could be right.

But even so, it still suggests tremendous ranges for weapons conservatively - The Imperial Fleet dropped out of lightspeed well out of orbital range of Hoth, it appeared to me in TESB. So we're still talking tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of kilometers at a minimum.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-13 04:31pm

To be fair, the sixth planet appears to be the outermost planet in the star system according to GG3 (with the asteroid field o utermost).

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-10-14 11:56am

I´m not sure, if that makes sense, considering, that their weapons are lightspeed at best and that they wanted to capture Luke Skywalker.

And what does this tell us about their sensors?

Can someone please enlighten me?

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2003-10-14 01:46pm

Unless the Empire has technology well beyond what the Rebellion knows about isnt the whole quote from Vader a bit illogical?

One would have to assume the Rebellion is made up of complete morons that they placed their early warning sensors in a way so that they were outranged by the guns of the average Imperial ship.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-14 04:20pm

MrAnderson wrote:Unless the Empire has technology well beyond what the Rebellion knows about isnt the whole quote from Vader a bit illogical?

One would have to assume the Rebellion is made up of complete morons that they placed their early warning sensors in a way so that they were outranged by the guns of the average Imperial ship.

They stated early in the movie that the meteorite activity made it difficult to spot approaching ships. Besides which, they are trying to remain hidden - this limits how much sensor coverage they can utilize (active sensing is out, sensor satellites are out, etc.) The Empire could easily mask their approach behind the field (the most readily detectable thing is the emergence from hyperspace - far more readily than the discharge/bombardment of energy weapons), sneak out under stealth through the field, and bombard at range.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-14 04:24pm

FTeik wrote:I´m not sure, if that makes sense, considering, that their weapons are lightspeed at best and that they wanted to capture Luke Skywalker.

Can someone please enlighten me?

You *did* notice Vader said a *clean* bombardment, did you not? Surgical strikes are not the same as completely wiping out the base (they can take out transports/spaceports, the shield generators, the ion cannon, etc.). Given enough time and observation, there's no reason to suspect they could not pinpoint and target such structures - the quote in fact suggests they CAN.

As for the weapons speed, so what? How the hell are they going to readily detect a weapons discharge with passive sensors (especially with meteor activity confusing sensors, as alreay indicated.) The Rebels would have seconds, maybe a few minutes, at best, to prepare, and that is even assuming they detected it immediately!

And what does this tell us about their sensors?

Their sensors are at least as good. This is unsurprising, given we already know they can scan entire solar systems. The fact they have at least light minute/light-hour range sensors has been long established.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-10-15 12:55pm

I didn´t forget about the clean bombardment, but wasn´t aware of the problems with the meteorites. Although i find it difficult to believe, that they can detect ships light-minutes or even light-hours away, but have problems discovering the differences between ships and meteorites.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-10-15 01:33pm

FTeik wrote:I didn´t forget about the clean bombardment, but wasn´t aware of the problems with the meteorites. Although i find it difficult to believe, that they can detect ships light-minutes or even light-hours away, but have problems discovering the differences between ships and meteorites.

If a ship was approaching using silent running then its engine output would be minimal. in that situation it would be very hard to detect said ship as it approached with all of the space junk floating around in the Hoth system. Passive sensor mainly only let you detect energy emmisions and movement so a slow moving silent ship might not be detected. Vader might have been planning a microjump to get the fleet into firing range after scanning for the base's location. once found the base could be pretargeted and the they could open fire imediatally after exiting from their microjump. Nice and clean

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-10-15 04:23pm

FTeik wrote:I didn´t forget about the clean bombardment, but wasn´t aware of the problems with the meteorites. Although i find it difficult to believe, that they can detect ships light-minutes or even light-hours away, but have problems discovering the differences between ships and meteorites.

The Empire has access to superior hardware and can approach rather easily (especially as Isolder indicated, if they "run silently.") They can't use active sensors, and any sort of detection satellite would give away the presence of a habitatation where there shouldn't be. Which basically means passive sensors, and their accuracy is dependent on the type and degree of emissions of the target. Which means that if the starship isn't emitting many signals or radiation, or the emissions it does give off are redirected or blocked (IE with shields), they won't be readily distinguishable from a meteor.