The Domination vs Mordor

[Kuja]

by who? any particular character?

[HemlockGrey]

One of the Taken heated up the ground underneath the feet of an advancing Rebel army to near-molten temps, and then Stormbringer summoned a rainstorm.

The results were predictable.

[Kuja]

Then the Black Captain and his winged steed drop out of the sky. The Taken has his brains knocked out by the Captain's Mace, then Stormbringer is made into a Wraith by a stab from the Captain's dagger.

YEAH! I fogot: the Ringwaiths carry daggers that infect the body, turning enemies into one of them. Only powerful Elven magick can stop the progression.

[HemlockGrey]

Ah, no. ^^

More like, enroute to the Taken, they are surprised by Limper and the Howler as the two meet them in midair and reduce them to ashes.

[Kuja]

Then the other eight Wraiths (who also can fly) stab them full of holes, decap them, and mount the heads at Barad-dur.

Hey, I thought of something! Saruman has a magically persuasive voice. What if he brought the two sides...together...*shudders*

[HemlockGrey]

Oh, and about the mace bit; Taken are INCREDIBLY resilient. A mace hit would not even faze them.

[Stormbringer]

But at the battle at charm they did not destroy entire armies. Eventually they destroyed armies but that was more brutal attrition rather than single or a few quickly paced strikes

Couple of reasons for that.

Remember, they were being parried by the surviving Eighteen. Furthermore, Lady did not let them cut loose - the whole point of Charm was to wipe out the disloyal Taken AND the Rebels, and thus make a statement to both the Rebellion and the Dominator.

The Taken were let loose completely at Charm. It was a trap but they did fight with their full power at the end. And what do think will. And what do you think Sauron, the Nazgul, and Sauron's socerer minions will do roll over and play dead?

The Nazgul have no physical body. They are wraiths; they have no body but are capable of manipulating the physical world.

I thought they needed their cloaks or something to interact with the world, and that's why Aragon was able to defeat them with fire?

No, they are completely independent of the any gear. They made the journey from Minas Morgul to the Isen unclothed. They used the gear to camoflauge what they were.

All they did was boil and burn the Dominator with the spike. No fancy magic, just a hot fire. That sure as hell won't work with Sauron.

They *locked his soul* into the spike.

But did no more than burn him alive.

And Sauron was supposed to have cut a swath in any battle he joined.

We never saw Saruman cut loose. He was forbidden to fight power with power. If he does, it'll be bad.

We only saw one Taken ever cut loose, and when he did, his fury brought mighty cities to their knees - and that was when he was lacking a body, full control over his powers, an army, and support-spellcasters.

He routed them yes. But they were devastated by the recent Civil war and had no real heavyweight spellcasters. It's no suprise that they were rolled over. And bodily harm doesn't really seem to have an affect one way or the other on taken level socerers.

[Kuja]

funny how you forgot to mention that

[HemlockGrey]

Oh, and Sauron finds, rather nastily, that Taken can survive indefinetly without or as heads; he has just invited the enemy into the heart of his fortress.


Boom.

[Kuja]

Yes, the heads will wriggle their way off the stakes while orcs make bow and arrow targets out of them

[HemlockGrey]

The Taken were let loose completely at Charm. It was a trap but they did fight with their full power at the end. And what do think will. And what do you think Sauron, the Nazgul, and Sauron's socerer minions will do roll over and play dead?

And the Rebel was utterly annihlated when they did.

No, they are completely independent of the any gear. They made the journey from Minas Morgul to the Isen unclothed. They used the gear to camoflauge what they were.

Hmm...then the Taken sweep away or drown their mounts, like Glorfindel.

But did no more than burn him alive.

So it wasn't flashy; the burning was just to remove his corporeal fom.

He routed them yes. But they were devastated by the recent Civil war and had no real heavyweight spellcasters. It's no suprise that they were rolled over. And bodily harm doesn't really seem to have an affect one way or the other on taken level socerers.

They had guys like Exile and Bomanz-level guys; and you must admit that annhilating a string of cities is *very* impressive.

[HemlockGrey]

Yes, the heads will wriggle their way off the stakes while orcs make bow and arrow targets out of them

You think orcs can take on the Taken? Not likely.


Let's not forget the Taken's sorcerous minions - and the ghosts, ghouls, dragons, and vast armies...

[Kuja]

you're missing the point. A head...decapitated...being shot full of arrows by sadistic orcs, will have the concentration to wriggle itself off of a stake?

[Kuja]

especially if its been impaled through the eye? (which heads often are in fantasy)

[HemlockGrey]

Why does it have to wriggle itself off the stake? Just blow the orcs to hell.

[Stormbringer]

Ah, no. ^^

More like, enroute to the Taken, they are surprised by Limper and the Howler as the two meet them in midair and reduce them to ashes.

Except they have no body to burn. The steeds will burn but the wraiths will survive just fine.

But I doubt the Morgul Knives would have any effect on the Taken

[HemlockGrey]

True. There is always the prospect of a silver spike lurking just over the horizon, though.

[Kuja]

BTW, we saw Sauron throwing six or seven people through the air with one swipe of the axe. What if he concentrated that power on one target? He'd probably split his enemy in half.

[Stormbringer]

The Taken were let loose completely at Charm. It was a trap but they did fight with their full power at the end. And what do think will. And what do you think Sauron, the Nazgul, and Sauron's socerer minions will do roll over and play dead?

And the Rebel was utterly annihlated when they did.

And the taken were wiped out themselves. Only Soulcatcher, Limper, Shifter, Stormbriner, Howler, and Whisper suvived. Six of thirteen is not that impressive.

Now that brings up a good tactic, Sauron can offer rings to any Taken willing to defect. That would break them apart easily.

No, they are completely independent of the any gear. They made the journey from Minas Morgul to the Isen unclothed. They used the gear to camoflauge what they were.

Hmm...then the Taken sweep away or drown their mounts, like Glorfindel.

But it didn't kill them. The biggest loss was their weapons. Without the they couldn't have done much, especially against elves.

But did no more than burn him alive.

So it wasn't flashy; the burning was just to remove his corporeal fom.

It's something that Sauron could survive easily because he doesn't need anchor like the Dominator. He wandered around incorporeally many times, after fightign Haun, after Numenore, and after the Last Alliance.

He routed them yes. But they were devastated by the recent Civil war and had no real heavyweight spellcasters. It's no suprise that they were rolled over. And bodily harm doesn't really seem to have an affect one way or the other on taken level socerers.

They had guys like Exile and Bomanz-level guys; and you must admit that annhilating a string of cities is *very* impressive.

He didn't annhilate them, he trashed them good. Set fires and stuff like that. But it's not that impressive.

And Exile is a meduim weight compared to the powers he fought. And bomanz was dying and wasn't as powerful as he was made out to be.

Let's not forget the Taken's sorcerous minions - and the ghosts, ghouls, dragons, and vast armies...

They never ever once employed a dragon or ghost or ghoul. They sometimes used illusions of them to cause terror but never once did they actually have them.

Why does it have to wriggle itself off the stake? Just blow the orcs to hell.

Except they can't. The Limper needed to have his body replaced and magics setup before he could return to action. And Soulcatcher didn't do much more than direct the crows while she was headless.

[Stormbringer]

True. There is always the prospect of a silver spike lurking just over the horizon, though.

Yeah, and sauron stabs the first guy to even try it. And they can try to boil him like they did but his soul doesn't need the kind of anchor the Dominator does. He's a demi-god not a mere mortal.

BTW, we saw Sauron throwing six or seven people through the air with one swipe of the axe. What if he concentrated that power on one target? He'd probably split his enemy in half.

Quite, likely. However that is the movie. Still it's a pretty accurate assesment of his power. And the Taken aren't immune to bodily damage. And even the Dominator was ripped up badly by a windwhale.

[Kuja]

I would've LOVED a longer sequence of Sauron kicking ass....I hope there's one in the D's Cut.

[Vejut]

Think about it...the hordes of Mordor were thrown against the walls of Minas Trinth. With the help of only Gandalf, they were held off. Then with NO wizardly support, the men of Rohan came swooping in, killed the king Wraith, and nearly shattering the army. Yes, the tide turned again, but the fact that the Rohannon could even shift them in the first place is fairly impressive, and a bit embarassing for the Orks...same with the Hornburg--little magical support, and they still hold them off for at least a night...get similar elites on the Taken side (Black Co., some Imperial regiments...), and fur's gonna fly.

And even against fairly skilled enemies (the Rebel), while the did take alot of damage, the number of rebel dead was astounding. Of course, alot of that was the plague Howler dropped....
I'd say it'd be close, as we are dealing with a hell of a lot of magical power in the one side, vs. less, but with more wizards, cleverness, and a better army on the other.

[Kuja]

killed the king Wraith

That was LUCK. The Black Captain was so surprised seeing a woman on the field (unheard of in medieval times) that Pip managed a lucky slash. Otherwise, he'd have finished the job he started by breaking her arm.

And wasn't Sauron holding back? I though he was keeping his troops around Barad-dur, waiting for the Ring.

Anyway, I've got class. Laaaaaate.

[Stormbringer]

Think about it...the hordes of Mordor were thrown against the walls of Minas Trinth. With the help of only Gandalf, they were held off. Then with NO wizardly support, the men of Rohan came swooping in, killed the king Wraith, and nearly shattering the army. Yes, the tide turned again, but the fact that the Rohannon could even shift them in the first place is fairly impressive, and a bit embarassing for the Orks...same with the Hornburg--little magical support, and they still hold them off for at least a night...get similar elites on the Taken side (Black Co., some Imperial regiments...), and fur's gonna fly.

Rohan's entrance in the battle achieved so much because it was completely undetected. They were supposed to still pinnned down in Helm's Deep. They had driven the Mordrorian Horde back but they were themselves in danger of being crushed when Aragorn and his forces arrived. Combined with the fall of the Witch King, the morale crumbled.

And Helm's Deep faced probably a tenth of the troops that went after Minas Tirirth. And they were poorly trained, Orcs and Goblin-men rather than Uruk-hai, and no real leadership. And Helm's Deep was much more defensible position than Minas Tirith.

And the Witch King was killed by magic specifically designed to kill him. The knife Meriadoc used was designed to kill him by it's makers; it was some of the most powerful magic used. After all, it had to break the hold of one of the great rings. The chances of the Taken creating something like that in the midst of battle is very very unlikey.

And Sauron still had a lot of troops left even after that assualt, he had sent out against Dale and Erebor and another went after Lothlorien. Plus Morodor was heavily defended to try to snare the ring and still more men were pouring into Morodor as he struck.

[HemlockGrey]

And the taken were wiped out themselves. Only Soulcatcher, Limper, Shifter, Stormbriner, Howler, and Whisper suvived. Six of thirteen is not that impressive.

Lady wanted them dead; besides, in the middle of Shadow Games, it's hinted that the others may not have died, either. The last two books might have mentioned that; no spoiler's from Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live, though.

But it didn't kill them. The biggest loss was their weapons. Without the they couldn't have done much, especially against elves.

Then the Taken merely have to disarm them.

It's something that Sauron could survive easily because he doesn't need anchor like the Dominator. He wandered around incorporeally many times, after fightign Haun, after Numenore, and after the Last Alliance.

But that's the whole point - so could the Dominator. Sauron can't move around if he's locked inside the spike.

He didn't annhilate them, he trashed them good. Set fires and stuff like that. But it's not that impressive.

And Exile is a meduim weight compared to the powers he fought. And bomanz was dying and wasn't as powerful as he was made out to be.

It is impressive; especially when you take into account that fact he was made out of wicker at the time.

They never ever once employed a dragon or ghost or ghoul. They sometimes used illusions of them to cause terror but never once did they actually have them.

A dragon defended the Barrowland; plus, the Dominator has command of those creatures that defended the black castle in Juniper.

Except they can't. The Limper needed to have his body replaced and magics setup before he could return to action. And Soulcatcher didn't do much more than direct the crows while she was headless.

I thought that the biggest need for a body was so that Limper could move around; and Soulcatcher *never* did anything reall flashy; more likely, she was just tracking Croaker while headless.

Yeah, and sauron stabs the first guy to even try it. And they can try to boil him like they did but his soul doesn't need the kind of anchor the Dominator does. He's a demi-god not a mere mortal.

It'll still be locked in the spike; the Dominator was essentially a demi-god too; which is why they needed both the spike and the scion of Old Father Tree.

Quite, likely. However that is the movie. Still it's a pretty accurate assesment of his power. And the Taken aren't immune to bodily damage. And even the Dominator was ripped up badly by a windwhale.

They aren't immune, but they're pretty damn tough. The Dominator was only ripped up by the windwhale in a null magic zone, and when he was out of it for a half-second he easily killed he windwhale; even in the null zone he killed upwards of a dozen men with his *bare hands* before being restrained.

Rohan's entrance in the battle achieved so much because it was completely undetected. They were supposed to still pinnned down in Helm's Deep. They had driven the Mordrorian Horde back but they were themselves in danger of being crushed when Aragorn and his forces arrived. Combined with the fall of the Witch King, the morale crumbled.

The Lady could easily hold the Nightstalker Brigade in reserve and use it to the exact same effect.

And Helm's Deep faced probably a tenth of the troops that went after Minas Tirirth. And they were poorly trained, Orcs and Goblin-men rather than Uruk-hai, and no real leadership. And Helm's Deep was much more defensible position than Minas Tirith.

And Charm is nearly impenetrable; Sauron can throw all the orcs he wants at it, he is *not* getting inside the walls.

And the Witch King was killed by magic specifically designed to kill him. The knife Meriadoc used was designed to kill him by it's makers; it was some of the most powerful magic used. After all, it had to break the hold of one of the great rings. The chances of the Taken creating something like that in the midst of battle is very very unlikey.

Maybe not in one battle. But One-Eye, a half-ass sorcerer thirty orders of magnitude weaker than the Taken was able to design a spear that would specifically rip apart Shadowmasters. It's possible that the Taken coulddesign the same thing for use against the Ringwraiths.