Israel ready to strike Iran nuclear sites

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-13 09:20am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: And there ARE some positive aspects in Dale Brown books.

His books are almost all based around impossible aircraft doing the impossible with other impossible tech and weapons. Yet they lead many believe that what is described is possible leading to much idiocy. No good comes from them.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-13 09:44am

The worst offence was the first offence- the B-52 'Megafortress'. A B-52 invisible to radar! How? Fucked if we know!

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-10-13 11:11am

Vympel wrote:The worst offence was the first offence- the B-52 'Megafortress'. A B-52 invisible to radar! How? Fucked if we know!

PIXIE DUST! Or a cold plasma generator the size of an 18-wheeler.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-10-13 11:40am

Sea Skimmer wrote:His books are almost all based around impossible aircraft doing the impossible with other impossible tech and weapons. Yet they lead many believe that what is described is possible leading to much idiocy. No good comes from them.

Not all - I think his better books were also the ones most plausible.

Flight of Old Dog isn't that bad. Once you get past the "converted B-52" thing, it is basically a low-observable bomber aircraft that's able to defend itself - no doubt a dream for any bomber pilot that can't really expect fighter cover in hostile territory (like Dale.) IIRC it has "Scorpions" (SARH/rear-aspect IR guidance, which is probably doable,) HARM (exists,) Striker (basically an EO bomb,) and airmines (time-fuzed AA rockets.)

The Hammerheads and Storming Heaven revolve more or less around real life available stuff - a plausible arc that was unfortunately lost. The bad guys seem a bit brazen, though.

Chains of Command features the RF-111, a last gasp for the F-111. IIRC, it can do recon and carry HARMs in addition to the rest. Not TOO big a stretch with an avionics upgrade.

Sky Masters. Not that bad. The Chinese get a much needed boost in AA capabilities to make them worthy opponents (it won't be much fun bombing ships that don't even have SAMs.) It was mostly fought with conventional weapons, except for Masters' last minute satellite kamikaze.

Night of the Hawk, Silver Tower, Day of the Cheetah - these three seem to go off Sky Masters into what may be one of the least plausible arcs. Dale closed down HAWC, and thus ending this implausible arc at Cheetah, then almost pretended it didn't exist (did you EVER hear of the laser-equipped space station mentioned in Silver Tower again?)

Shadows of Steel and onwards - Dale Brown makes up a new arc that seems tacked onto Sky Masters, and what I consider to be the TRUE beginning of realism killing in Dale Brown novels (a steady decrease as the story went on.) Occasionally brushes are made with Night of the Hawk (with David Luger) and all those others, but for the greater part the arc might as well not have existed

I think most people can distinguish that most of the stuff he said were made up weapons.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-10-13 12:50pm

I've always said that we should bomb the Iranian nuclear facilities ourselves; far better if Israel does it for us though.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-13 03:36pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Not all - I think his better books were also the ones most plausible.

Flight of Old Dog isn't that bad. Once you get past the "converted B-52" thing,

So once you get past the impossible aircraft around which the book revolves everything is okay? Yeah, that's an interesting way of putting t. I mean if you ignore the cast and plot of Enterprise you've got some nice backgrounds too..

Chains of Command features the RF-111, a last gasp for the F-111. IIRC, it can do recon and carry HARMs in addition to the rest. Not TOO big a stretch with an avionics upgrade.

The air battles where very often preposterous and the existence of Soviet warship point defenses completely ignored. The only other one you mentioned that I've read was Shadows of Steel, which was fucking stupid.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-10-13 03:41pm

Ah lighten up Sea Skimmer. Did you ever watch Airwolf or Knight Rider or the film of Firefox? Same thing, don't let some super advanced tech put off a good story (I haven't read the books in question, but I trust the only reason for these critiques is some imaginative use of hardware).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-13 04:06pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Ah lighten up Sea Skimmer. Did you ever watch Airwolf or Knight Rider or the film of Firefox?

Yes, I've also yet to encounter any brainwashed zealots who believe any of those things are possibul.

Same thing, don't let some super advanced tech put off a good story (I haven't read the books in question, but I trust the only reason for these critiques is some imaginative use of hardware).

His books, all of the remotely recent ones, lack the "good story" bit as well. He just cooks up a scenario, throws in the same political indecision crap, then has the same handful of idiots commit treason while single handily defeating the ultimate enemy with there impossible uber plane.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-10-13 04:11pm

Hmm, maybe I can find one in the library just for a quick sift through. I ain't spending a penny though.

Is this the series of books with the super B-1B too?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-13 04:57pm

Do the Israeli really know what they're doing??

Firstly, for Iran this probably presents a valid reason to declare war against Israel and they probably will do it if the Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.

Secondly, the Iranian army outnumbers the IDF if I recall correctly.

Thirdly, how exactly can the Israeli be sure that the Iranians are going to nuke Israel as soon as they have the possibility?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-13 05:42pm

The Isrealis might be outmanned, but I think they have superior technology.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-10-13 06:01pm

Mr Johanson.
Firstly, Iran gettin nukes is an act of war as far as Israel is concerned, so they are only taking the first shot pro forma, as the nuke site's very exsistence is an act of war.
Isreal feels threatened. Iran feels threatened. Israel exports western ideas, Iran exports terror. Both feeling cancel each other out, so who is realy at risk hear? Isreal has had nukes for a few years now, and hasn't used them. Do you believe as many years would pass if the situation were reversed? Isreal doesn't, and already has nukes.
The very idea of Iran using nukes for power is a sick sad joke. They want the fucking glowing stuff, to make big boomeroos.
There is an unavoidable collision of goals here.<My opinion.*

Secondly, numbers mean jack shit, without projection capacity. (Like why Austrailia is not afraid of Chinease troops)How far can the Iranian's PROJECT their power? By what means is this projection done, land, sea, air? All are subject to interception, and troop tranports are fat happy targets. Look at the map, and tell me with a straight face Iran is going to use the land route. Through Syrria, no doubt. Boats? Ha, saw them coming, and sank 'em. Air? Get serious! The IDF against troop transports with escorts! What a slaughter, I want footage!

Thirdly, the Isrealis believe the Iranians will nuke them when they can, because the Iranian government has been saying so! Go to memri.org, and read what the arabs say to themselves, in their own language, via state sponsored media. The arabs, AND Iranians, (Who are Persians, not arabs) want a nuke, to use on Isreal, and make no bones about it, when not speaking english. ONLY Egypt has made peace with Isreal, the rest are like Korea. War, without end, with small breaks for exhaustion.

It never fails to astonish me, when someone says something, over and over, like "I planned the World Trade Center bombing," and people will still doubt they had the intent, much less did the deed. What part of "The bomb for Islam" don't you get?

Take the fundies, of ALL stripes, and LISTEN to them. They are telling the truth! Take them at their word, for being wrong, and sincere are different.
Do not doubt their resolve, or intent. They are honest and up front about what they are about.

Totaly off topic, their is a song about nuclear proliferation, done in the late fifties, by Tom Lerher. As this was the fifties, Germany getting controle of nuclear weapons, via NATO, and the red menace was king buggaboo.
You will notice, that France is, and was, a pain, and nuking Isreal has bean a plan in the works for longer than I have been alive. (They just can't pull it off) Note too, that the most antagonistic, Egypt, is now the only neighbor that even TRIES to get along. That's why they got back their lost land.

"Whos Next?"

First we got the bomb, and that was good
'Cause we love peace and motherhood
Then Russia got the bomb, but that's okay
'Cause the balance of power's maintained that way
Who's next

France got the bomb, but don't you grieve
'Cause they're on our side, I believe
China got the bomb, but have no fears
They can't wipe us out for at least five years
Who's next

Then Indonesia claimed that they
Were gonna get one any day
South Africa wants two, that's right
One for the black and one for the white
Who's next

Egypt's gonna get one too
Just to use on you know who
So Israel's getting tense
Wants one in self defense
"The Lord's our shepherd," says the psalm
But just in case, we better get a bomb
Who's next

Luxembourg is next to go
And, who knows, maybe Monaco
We'll try to stay serene and calm
When Alabama gets the bomb
Who's next, who's next, who's next, who's next

Dated, with eternal truths. No more aparteid, Egypt no longer Isreal's#1 enemy.

*Conflict is NOT inevitable. If changes are made, like Iran giving up it's nuke weapons program, then peace can still happen. Iran will need to have inspector from the UN crawling all over their country, doing random inspection, no warnings. IF Iran will submit to such safeguards, they will not get sanctioned, and blasted later. North Korea said FU, what will Iran say?

OR, Isreal could decide having nukes that close, aren't a problem, and it need not take action. Without an incredible change in the nature of Isreal's, or Iran's government, this WILL not happen.

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-10-13 07:27pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Firstly, for Iran this probably presents a valid reason to declare war against Israel and they probably will do it if the Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.

And?

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Secondly, the Iranian army outnumbers the IDF if I recall correctly.

How are they going to get there? Flap their arms?

I suspect that an Isreal/Iran war would be fought with missles and planes. Isreal owns Iran in that

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-10-13 08:25pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:So once you get past the impossible aircraft around which the book revolves everything is okay? Yeah, that's an interesting way of putting t. I mean if you ignore the cast and plot of Enterprise you've got some nice backgrounds too..

I said once you get past the SPECIFICS of the "impossible aircraft" it is OK. The effect may be achievable, just not with a B-52. Even if you COULD do it by modding a B-52, it is probably more cost effective in the long run to use a newer conceptual airframe, but there's no doubt sentimentality in there too.

The air battles where very often preposterous and the existence of Soviet warship point defenses completely ignored. The only other one you mentioned that I've read was Shadows of Steel, which was fucking stupid.

I'm not too good at picking out implausible air battles, but I don't remember any cases when the Soviet CIWS was really ignored. The entire strategy of that Black Sea Fleet battle is to have the F-111s go in as lures and HARM-shooters - which at Mach 3+ are kind of difficult for any CIWS system. By the time they were done, all the radars are down. Its kind of hard to direct any CIWS fire without radar at night. Sure, there's optronics, but nobody really expected optronics to be the major FC system.

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-10-13 08:29pm

I've never read any Dale Brown or Tom Claney. What's a good book to start either author with?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-10-13 08:43pm

CelesKnight wrote:I've never read any Dale Brown or Tom Claney. What's a good book to start either author with?

I suppose their first books are at or close to their best. Their later books will first get better (better EXP,) then get progressively worse as they deviate further and further from reality to maintain their own continuity. IMHO, the cut line for TC is about Executive Orders - that's when the last veneer of any equality in combat died off. The cut line for DB is maybe Shadows of Steel, and then it sinks further after that.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-10-14 04:38am

CelesKnight wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:Firstly, for Iran this probably presents a valid reason to declare war against Israel and they probably will do it if the Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.
And?

Israel will be bombed into oblivion!! We can all agree that isn't a good thing, can we?

How are they going to get there? Flap their arms?

Don't they have troop transport ships??

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-14 05:21am

Don't they have troop transport ships??

How are they going to get there (very far away) without being sunk?

Iran is incapable of attacking Israel in any way, shape or form- save it's ballistic missiles. Though I'd love to see Iranian bombers blowing up Israeli nuclear facilities- I'd laugh my arse off. Luckily, they don't have any.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-10-14 08:40am

I wouldn't be too sad if either side got obliterated.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-14 08:54am

Vympel wrote:
Iran is incapable of attacking Israel in any way, shape or form- save it's ballistic missiles. Though I'd love to see Iranian bombers blowing up Israeli nuclear facilities- I'd laugh my arse off. Luckily, they don't have any.

They could have a couple B-1B's and still not do it, Isreal's going to be keeping an E-2 for a while after any military action.

I'm not too good at picking out implausible air battles, but I don't remember any cases when the Soviet CIWS was really ignored. The entire strategy of that Black Sea Fleet battle is to have the F-111s go in as lures and HARM-shooters - which at Mach 3+ are kind of difficult for any CIWS system.

The missile cannot reach mach 3 and could easily be brought down, and must be fired from well inside the range of the SAM's on the ships being attacked. And the damn things would have had air cover.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-14 09:06am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Israel will be bombed into oblivion!! We can all agree that isn't a good thing, can we?

How will that happen when nothing in the Iranian inventory can even reach western Iraq? Not that it matters since Isreal fields a far far superior airforce. It would be little more then a turkey shot even if Iran magically got a wing of long range air refueling tankers.

Don't they have troop transport ships??

They have some oversized landing craft, which lack the range to reach Israel going one way and couldn’t haul more then an armored regiment at the very most, and some two decade obsolete escorts which lack effective air defenses, have marginal SSM capability, and also lack the range to reach Israel going one way. The only modern part of there navy is three Kilo SSK’s which mostly stay in port and face a long trip snorkeling

Israel meanwhile also has three SSK’s, three heavily armed modern Corvettes, a shit load of heavily armed modern missile boats, several hundred aircraft capable of carrying anti ship missiles and about a dozen heavy divisions.

A fraction of any one of those five things could easily beat anything Iran could send by sea.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-14 09:32am

They could have a couple B-1B's and still not do it, Isreal's going to be keeping an E-2 for a while after any military action.

Unless they had CALCMs- oh wait- is that unlikely?

The missile cannot reach mach 3 and could easily be brought down, and must be fired from well inside the range of the SAM's on the ships being attacked. And the damn things would have had air cover.

It is the Black Sea, for god's sake. Every land-based AV-MF/VVS unit for hundreds of kms would've been nearby.

Which battle was this again? Shadows of Steel was fucking stupid, but wasn't that the Kuznetsov being sold to Iran or somesuch nonsnese?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2003-10-14 09:47am

Vympel wrote:It is the Black Sea, for god's sake. Every land-based AV-MF/VVS unit for hundreds of kms would've been nearby.

Which battle was this again? Shadows of Steel was fucking stupid, but wasn't that the Kuznetsov being sold to Iran or somesuch nonsnese?

Chains of Command, the Black Sea Fleet battle. They did not put a CAP up, but then I've been TOLD the Russians don't love flying at night. At least, when the attack actually started, they put up 60 fighters pretty durn fast. Supposedly, the A-50 Mainstay can't direct more fighters.

In real life, the Mainstay can only handle about 60 autotracks and about 10 autodirections.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-14 09:52am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Chains of Command, the Black Sea Fleet battle. They did not put a CAP up, but then I've been TOLD the Russians don't love flying at night. At least, when the attack actually started, they put up 60 fighters pretty durn fast. Supposedly, the A-50 Mainstay can't direct more fighters.

In real life, the Mainstay can only handle about 60 autotracks and about 10 autodirections.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

I've read Chains of Command, but it was a long time ago- regardless, Russian VVS/PVO fighters would've also had support from GCI- the A-50 is minor compared to the GCI network.

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-10-14 03:31pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
CelesKnight wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:Firstly, for Iran this probably presents a valid reason to declare war against Israel and they probably will do it if the Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities.
And?
Israel will be bombed into oblivion!! We can all agree that isn't a good thing, can we?

Pipe dream. Isreal and the rest of the world starts laughing uncontrollably at Iran's declaration.

Unless Iran is dumb enough to use WMD. And while it might make out lives easier if they all die, I doubt they want to.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
How are they going to get there? Flap their arms?
Don't they have troop transport ships??

Navies

I don't know if they have transports or not. You would assume so, but Isreal's navy is about equal to Iran's. Add in Isreal's superior airforce and this isn't likely. (Unless someone has better military stats for them that.)