Base Delta Zero Orbit

[Isolder74]

I didn´t forget about the clean bombardment, but wasn´t aware of the problems with the meteorites. Although i find it difficult to believe, that they can detect ships light-minutes or even light-hours away, but have problems discovering the differences between ships and meteorites.

The Empire has access to superior hardware and can approach rather easily (especially as Isolder indicated, if they "run silently.") They can't use active sensors, and any sort of detection satellite would give away the presence of a habitatation where there shouldn't be. Which basically means passive sensors, and their accuracy is dependent on the type and degree of emissions of the target. Which means that if the starship isn't emitting many signals or radiation, or the emissions it does give off are redirected or blocked (IE with shields), they won't be readily distinguishable from a meteor.

Except for the fact that it looks like a big pyrimid, hardly natural but by the time you could see these features it will be WAY TOO LATE!

[FTeik]

Hmmmm?

What about the mass of the ships and gravitic sensors (although the rebels probabely didn´t have those)? Since gravity moves with c and turbolasers are only a little slower i would think even in this case there wouldn´t be enough forewarning.

[Ender]

Hmmmm?

What about the mass of the ships and gravitic sensors (although the rebels probabely didn´t have those)? Since gravity moves with c and turbolasers are only a little slower i would think even in this case there wouldn´t be enough forewarning.

Please explain how things that propagate at C "are only a little slower" then something that propagates at C

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Easy, not all people are fully convinced that the TL bolt is really massless, despite the SW2ICS.

[Ender]

Easy, not all people are fully convinced that the TL bolt is really massless, despite the SW2ICS.

In which case he has to explain how km/sec movement is just "only a little slower" then C

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That's the rationalization used to deal all those "lightspeed" quotes. It is only "figuratively" lightspeed - so it is close, say 0.9C, but not a full 1C.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You need a real reason to purposely contradict canon text, y'know. "Close enough" doesn't cut it.

[Connor MacLeod]

That's the rationalization used to deal all those "lightspeed" quotes. It is only "figuratively" lightspeed - so it is close, say 0.9C, but not a full 1C.

uhm...

"Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed...The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow."

That first part rather strongly implies that lightspeed IS lightspeed, given the "less than lightspeed" contrast to the "pulse". Your rationalization doesn't really work unless you do a rather hefty bit of definition-twisting.

And in any event there are far more practical and workable ways to rationalize any "inconsistencies" if they exist (personal obstinacy to new ideas does not count.)

[Connor MacLeod]

You need a real reason to purposely contradict canon text, y'know. "Close enough" doesn't cut it.

To be fair, he can counter with the AOTC VD's, which seem to be approximately the same level as the ICS's and ITW guides.

Edit: And there are canon examples that do in fact seem to support a non-massless weapon. Even Mike admits this.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, I know Connor, but correct me if I'm wrong, but the specific weapons which should be detailing what he's discussing about are heavy starship weapons, which I was under the impression were almost universally considered massless. Blasters and ground combat weaponry is in dispute.

And, even if heavy starship weaponry is under C, and a high fraction as one suggested, it'd still give sensors virtually no time to react anyway (as opposed to zero time) and thus the assertion isn't useful.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, I know Connor, but correct me if I'm wrong, but the specific weapons which should be detailing what he's discussing about are heavy starship weapons, which I was under the impression were almost universally considered massless. Blasters and ground combat weaponry is in dispute.

Who says they limit the non-massless weapons to ground weaponry only? We knew the Death Star was capable of launching missiles and explosive projectiles as well as several varieites of energy weapon. I fail to see why other Imperial warships should be any less diverse.

And, even if heavy starship weaponry is under C, and a high fraction as one suggested, it'd still give sensors virtually no time to react anyway (as opposed to zero time) and thus the assertion isn't useful.

You're assuming its an all or nothing situation though. They can carry a mixed battery of weapons types if need be. In fact it might make some sense to do so.

[Illuminatus Primus]

We're talking about Star Destroyers.

Save for Pelleaon's post-Hand of Thrawn duology Chimaera, I am unaware that Star Destroyers are armed with any appreciable torpedo or projectile weapon. The burden of proof is on you to prove those "varied weapons" exist. Demonstrating the battlemoon known as the Death Star possesses them doesn't affect that they haven't been observed from a Star Destroyer.

That leaves beam weapons. And if I'm not mistaken, all the observed Star Destroyer energy beams are consistent with the expanded-ICS lightspeed-theory for blasters. And for starships, lightspeed quanta weapons make the most sense. They're easiest to aim and have the best range, and also are the most energy efficient.

And if we're talking about striking at a base such that the enemy wouldn't detect one with passive sensors, why would they, even if they did posess such a varied payload, fire slow, massive projectiles they'd know could be detected? They'd almost certainly use their c-propogating weaponry.

[Connor MacLeod]

We're talking about Star Destroyers.

Which we know very little about armament wise. Sources give some rather conflicting information.

Save for Pelleaon's post-Hand of Thrawn duology Chimaera, I am unaware that Star Destroyers are armed with any appreciable torpedo or projectile weapon. The burden of proof is on you to prove those "varied weapons" exist. Demonstrating the battlemoon known as the Death Star possesses them doesn't affect that they haven't been observed from a Star Destroyer.

1.) The Alleigane and Emancipator were refitted to carry missiles and torpedoes (Ref: Dark Empire/DESB) - As I recall the stats on the Alleigance and Emanicpator were largely identical to conventional ISDs (including armament) - except for the addition of those missile/torpedo launchers (and please do explain how they would have found the room to add torpedo launchers. I would love to hear this.)

2.) Wedge's Gamble also mentiones STar destroyers (and Mon Cal Cruisers) unleashing missiles.

3.) We tend to use the Death STar as benchmarks for much of Imperial technology (firepower, power generation, etc.) - so inferring weapons complments as being similar is not unusual either.

4.) We know Executor class vessels carry missile launchers, and Victory class ships did as well (as well as the Acclamators). Why would not an ISD?

5.) we know Star Destroyers in the games carried missile launchers.

There is in fact more than enough proof to infer that its possible and reasonable for an ISD to carry missile/projectile weapons, your obvious bias against the possibility notwithstanding.

That leaves beam weapons. And if I'm not mistaken, all the observed Star Destroyer energy beams are consistent with the expanded-ICS lightspeed-theory for blasters.

I haven't checked, have you? Besides, even if it is, so what? IT doesnt discount projectile-style weapons existing either, or being employed. (We know for example that the Eye of Palpatine carried "plasma cannons", and I can recall Imperial fighters using particle beam weapons - ref Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina.)

And for starships, lightspeed quanta weapons make the most sense. They're easiest to aim and have the best range, and also are the most energy efficient.

Best range? A missile will always have better range than a dumb-fired or "line of sight" weapon, even a beam weapon by virtue of its mobility and propulsive nature (of course, it can also be deceived and/or shot down, and you can't shoot as many missiles necceasarily as you can lasers. But there are tradeoffs to all kinds of weapons.)

And if we're talking about striking at a base such that the enemy wouldn't detect one with passive sensors, why would they, even if they did posess such a varied payload, fire slow, massive projectiles they'd know could be detected? They'd almost certainly use their c-propogating weaponry.

I never said what kind of weapons they might use against the base. We're not even told. Missiles can be preprogrammed or targeted by various methods (probe droids might used provide telemetry or homing beacons.) The same limitations I stated on Rebel sensors earlier would apply to missiles. (the probe droid bit is a possibility. There's a distinct chance that their own passive sensors might have difficulties accurately targeting even with beam weapons at such ranges - they certainly can't use active sensing without alerting the Rebels.)

This is besides the point anyhow and I fail to see how this is relevant to the point I originally made to you.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

1.) The Alleigane and Emancipator were refitted to carry missiles and torpedoes (Ref: Dark Empire/DESB) - As I recall the stats on the Alleigance and Emanicpator were largely identical to conventional ISDs (including armament) - except for the addition of those missile/torpedo launchers (and please do explain how they would have found the room to add torpedo launchers. I would love to hear this.)

Umm, special NR mods?

3.) We tend to use the Death STar as benchmarks for much of Imperial technology (firepower, power generation, etc.) - so inferring weapons complments as being similar is not unusual either.

The Death Star has a superlaser. It doesn't mean the average SD has a miniature superlaser system.

4.) We know Executor class vessels carry missile launchers, and Victory class ships did as well (as well as the Acclamators). Why would not an ISD?

AFAIK, the WEG Vic-1 carries missiles. The VSD-II dumps them. Ergo, there might be a time when missiles went out of vogue (perhaps a temporary surgence in ECM effectiveness that makes capship missiles virtually useless.) I guess it is possible that later, factors change again and missiles come back into the vogue.

5.) we know Star Destroyers in the games carried missile launchers.

Since when do we trust games for more than a general story?

[His Divine Shadow]

Best range? A missile will always have better range than a dumb-fired or "line of sight" weapon, even a beam weapon by virtue of its mobility and propulsive nature (of course, it can also be deceived and/or shot down, and you can't shoot as many missiles necceasarily as you can lasers. But there are tradeoffs to all kinds of weapons.)

Well it has a longer maximum range, but it's usefull range is far less than that of a beam weapon though, since it can be more easily shot down, to counter that you need speed, but with really high speeds you make it into a dumb-fire weapon more or less, in addition to increasing the cost.
Missiles would be more suitable as torpedoe style weapons, which is pretty much how they are used in SW, mainly by fighters.

[Darth Fanboy]

Doesn't it mention in "Bacta War" That the VSD's carried Concussion missle launchers and/or proton torpedoes? I cant find my copy.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I don't remember Bacta War having them. I do know VSD-Is have them. I suppose Emperor's Wisdom in Isard's Revenge has them.

[Lord Poe]

"Specter of the Past", pg. 341:

"Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo cluster, all fifteen torpedoes to fire in three-by-five sequence."

Pellaeon commanding the Star Destroyer Chimaera

[Durandal]

That's the rationalization used to deal all those "lightspeed" quotes. It is only "figuratively" lightspeed - so it is close, say 0.9C, but not a full 1C.

The ICS is canon and disagrees.

[Illuminatus Primus]

"Specter of the Past", pg. 341:

"Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo cluster, all fifteen torpedoes to fire in three-by-five sequence."

Pellaeon commanding the Star Destroyer Chimaera

Save for Pelleaon's post-Hand of Thrawn duology Chimaera, I am unaware that Star Destroyers are armed with any appreciable torpedo or projectile weapon.(emphasis added)

[Darth Garden Gnome]

From "The Courtship of Princess Leia", P. 311-312:

"Proximity indicators screamed in warning, and Han looked up, saw the slate gray V's of twin Star Destroyers converging ahead of them. Luke swerved to starboard, and a barrage of missiles ripped from the destroyers, punctured the carrier's weakened shields. Han watched missiles puncture the hull of the witches' carrier."

[Connor MacLeod]

"Specter of the Past", pg. 341:

"Stand by Number Eight Proton Torpedo cluster, all fifteen torpedoes to fire in three-by-five sequence."

Pellaeon commanding the Star Destroyer Chimaera

Save for Pelleaon's post-Hand of Thrawn duology Chimaera, I am unaware that Star Destroyers are armed with any appreciable torpedo or projectile weapon.(emphasis added)

The Errant Venture was carrying torpedo tubes in VOTF when they raided Yaga Minor, and they were supposed to be mistaken for the Tyrannic.

[Connor MacLeod]

From "The Courtship of Princess Leia", P. 311-312:

"Proximity indicators screamed in warning, and Han looked up, saw the slate gray V's of twin Star Destroyers converging ahead of them. Luke swerved to starboard, and a barrage of missiles ripped from the destroyers, punctured the carrier's weakened. Han watched missiles puncture the hull of the witches' carrier."

True, although someone is probably going to say those might be Victory class instead of Imperator class.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well it has a longer maximum range, but it's usefull range is far less than that of a beam weapon though, since it can be more easily shot down, to counter that you need speed, but with really high speeds you make it into a dumb-fire weapon more or less, in addition to increasing the cost.
Missiles would be more suitable as torpedoe style weapons, which is pretty much how they are used in SW, mainly by fighters.

Depends on how fast the missile is fired and how fast it accelerates. You can still manuver even at high speeds to a certain degree anyhow (IE adjust your aim, which you can't do with a dumb-fired weapon - you just shouldn't expect the missile to make tight turns or anything.)

And you generally have to *find* the missile to target and shoot it down Many missiles tend to be less than 5 meters in length, and very narrow traveling at tens or hundreds of thousands of gees at least, not an easy thing to track, even if you can detect it.)

I further point out that the official and canon SW ranges typically are not much greater than thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers (sometimes substantially less) due to various factors. With some of the canon accelerations for missiles, that distance can be covered very quickly
anyhow and limit just how long you have to target it.

In any case, captial ships DO still employ missile weapons, from fighters and ground vehicles, to the Executor and Death Star.

[Lord Poe]

Save for Pelleaon's post-Hand of Thrawn duology Chimaera, I am unaware that Star Destroyers are armed with any appreciable torpedo or projectile weapon.(emphasis added)

Ok, sorry:

The Krytos Trap

pg. 36-37:

Wedge shook his head. "I've been given no data concerning the Iron Fist." Warlord Zsinj's flagship was one of the Super-class Star Destroyers created by the Kuat Drive Yard's shipworks before the Empire collapsed. The ships were, for all intents and purposes, fleets unto themselves. They carried 144 fighters, had a crew of over a quarter of a million people, and bristled with over a thousand missile launchers, ion cannons, and turbolaser batteries. Though the Rebel fleet had managed to destroy the Executor at Endor, everyone knew that ship had died because of luck, not skill.