Malaysian Prime Minister claims Isreal rules world by proxy.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2& ... &printer=1

Looking at LBJ's and Macnamera's actions during the USS Liberty certainly makes me think he has a valid point, to a degree anyway.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

On a side note this was said in the said link.

"There are people wanting to create trouble, invent problems that do not exist," said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher.

"I would advise them to read the whole speech."

Since a link to the said speech was not provided by Yahoo here is a version I found for anyone who is interested.


http://thestar.com.my/services/printerf ... speech.asp

[AniThyng]

*sigh*

well, at least he's blunt and honest about his prejudicial hatred.[i dislike him and think some of his opinions are worthless shit, but it's not easy to hate what he's done for the country, at least from an economic standpoint.]

[AniThyng]

http://thestar.com.my/oic/story.asp?fil ... 02&sec=OIC

btw, u got the wrong speech, u linked to his speech to the ruling party's national convention. the above is the right one.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Looking at LBJ's and Macnamera's actions during the USS Liberty certainly makes me think he has a valid point, to a degree anyway.

That's really an interesting connection. Care to prove it?

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Taken from http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jenn.html

Secretary Robert McNamara ordered the recall of rescue aircraft. He has refused to discuss the matter. The recall order was confirmed by President Lyndon Johnson. President Johnson later said that he would not risk shooting down Israeli aircraft, even if Americans died as a result.

This is certainly circumstancial evidence to a degree, and it certainly begs the question of why Isreali lives and opinion mattered much more to Johnson then the lives of American service men.

[Sarevok]

Mahathir is great leader. But sometimes he loses his head like he did now. Anyway I read the whole text of speech in the OIC. He said many good things there. The comments about Israel were off hand remarks, he probobly got carried away.

[AniThyng]

meh. he knows exactly what the reaction will be to the things he says. he's done it often enough.

and those jew remarks sound like they were part of his prepared speech. [well, maybe they were off the cuff, i didn't watch the speech on TV and i've been a little too busy with mid terms to look for the papers and read the circumstances of his remark.]

[phongn]

Secretary Robert McNamara ordered the recall of rescue aircraft. He has refused to discuss the matter. The recall order was confirmed by President Lyndon Johnson. President Johnson later said that he would not risk shooting down Israeli aircraft, even if Americans died as a result.

This is certainly circumstancial evidence to a degree, and it certainly begs the question of why Isreali lives and opinion mattered much more to Johnson then the lives of American service men.

Amazingly, I have never, ever seen exact citations telling the source for this assertion. While I am no fan of McNamara or Johnson (especially that fool McNamara), such an extraordinary accusation demands proof. I mean, at the very least shouldn't this be noted somewhere in the National Archives and/or opened under FOIA?

Primary sources are your friend, I'll concede this point should one pop up.

[Axis Kast]

Looking at LBJ's and Macnamera's actions during the USS Liberty certainly makes me think he has a valid point, to a degree anyway.

You honestly believe in the notion of a Jewish conspiracy that reaches to the very highest echelons of American government?

Please, try to keep in mind that Israel is - and was, especially at the time of the "'Liberty' Incident" - an American ally of very significant strategic value. Not only did they potentially open up another nuclear front against the Soviet Union's Caucasus region after the early 1970s, but they were also instrumental in discouraging nations like Egypt of the value of Moscovite assistance. Israel was a key proxy during the Cold War; never forget that. Unlike so many others - Vietnam and South Africa come to mind -, it enjoyed tremendous success.

[Coyote]

Taken from http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jenn.html

Secretary Robert McNamara ordered the recall of rescue aircraft. He has refused to discuss the matter. The recall order was confirmed by President Lyndon Johnson. President Johnson later said that he would not risk shooting down Israeli aircraft, even if Americans died as a result.

This is certainly circumstancial evidence to a degree, and it certainly begs the question of why Isreali lives and opinion mattered much more to Johnson then the lives of American service men.

Or it could be that since the situation had already degenerated so badly, that the President did not want to exacerbate it by firing back and calling in even more Israeli fire. If you know you are being fired on by friendlies, you avoid returning fire and try to signal instead.

Remember, the Liberty incident was taking place in the middle of a larger war involving the entire region, in which emotions were running hot on all sides. Why pour more gasoline into the fire? Especially if it means a rift with a major ally and even more lives lost for no reason? Pulling the ship out was the best thing to do all around.

Think for a moment-- if the Jews really controlled the actions of the US, why wouldn't we have used the Liberty's advanced spy hardware to send information to Israel instead?

[Wicked Pilot]

Israel does not have to have direct control over American policy to get their way. They have a vast lobby of right-wingers who will ensure they get whatever they need in order to bring about the end times.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Israel does not have to have direct control over American policy to get their way. They have a vast lobby of right-wingers who will ensure they get whatever they need in order to bring about the end times.

So you believe that the active goal of right-wing foreign policy is to bring about armegeddon? Then why are we having this conversation after two terms of Ronald Reagan during the Cold War?

[Joe]

Israel does not have to have direct control over American policy to get their way. They have a vast lobby of right-wingers who will ensure they get whatever they need in order to bring about the end times.

Obviously then, the United States is currently devoting billions of dollars to the genetic research needed in order to engineer a pure red heifer.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

MAHATHIR: JEWS REALLY DO CONTROL THE WORLD

Or, "the backlash against the first time I said that proves it!!"

[Sarevok]

Here is the full text of Mahathirs speech.

Not revenge, winning the struggle is important
Dr. Mahathir Mohamad

Alhamdulillah, All Praise be to Allah, by whose Grace and Blessings we, the leaders of the Organisation of Islamic Conference countries are gathered here today to confer and hopefully to plot a course for the future of Islam and the Muslim ummah worldwide.

On behalf of the Government and the people of many races and religions of Malaysia, may I extend a warm welcome to all and everyone to this Tenth Session of the Islamic Summit Conference in Putrajaya, Malaysia's administrative capital.


It is indeed a great honour for Malaysia to host this Session and to assume the Chairmanship of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC). I thank the members for their confidence in Malaysia's Chairmanship.


May I also take this opportunity to pay a special tribute to the State of Qatar, in particular His Highness Shaikh Hamad Bin Khalifa AI-Thani, the Emir of the State of Qatar, for his outstanding stewardship of our Organisation over the past three years.


As host, Malaysia is gratified at the high level of participation from member countries. This clearly demonstrates our continued and abiding faith in, and commitment to our Organisation and our collective wish and determination to strengthen our role for the dignity and benefit of the ummah.


I would also like to welcome the leaders and representatives of the many countries who wish to become observers at this meeting because of their substantial Muslim population. Whether they are Muslims or not, their presence at this meeting will help towards greater understanding of Islam and the Muslims, thus helping to disprove the perception of Islam as a religion of backwardness and terror.


The whole world is looking at us. Certainly 1.3 billion Muslims, one-sixth of the world's population are placing their hopes in us, in this meeting, even though they may be cynical about our will and capacity to even decide to restore the honour of Islam and the Muslims, much less to free their brothers and sisters from the oppression and humiliation from which they suffer today.


I will not enumerate the instances of our humiliation and oppression, nor will I once again condemn our detractors and oppressors. It would be an exercise in futility because they are not going to change their attitudes just because we condemn them. If we are to recover our dignity and that of Islam, our religion, it is we who must decide, it is we who must act.


To begin with, the Governments of all the Muslim countries can close ranks and have a common stand if not on all issues, at least on some major ones, such as on Palestine. We are all Muslims. We are all oppressed. We are all being humiliated. But we who have been raised by Allah above our fellow Muslims to rule our countries have never really tried to act in concert in order to exhibit at our level the brotherhood and unity that Islam enjoins upon us.


But not only are our Governments divided, the Muslim ummah is also divided, and divided again and again. Over the last 1400 years the interpreters of Islam, the learned ones, the ulamas have interpreted and reinterpreted the single Islamic religion brought by Prophet Muhammad S.A.W, so differently that now we have a thousand religions which are often so much at odds with one another that we often fight and kill each other.


From being a single ummah we have allowed ourselves to be divided into numerous ects, mazhabs and tarikats, each more concerned with claiming to be the true Islam than our oneness as the Islamic ummah. We fail to notice that our detractors and enemies do not care whether we are true Muslims or not. To them we are all Muslims, followers of a religion and a Prophet whom they declare promotes terrorism, and we are all their sworn enemies. They will attack and kill us, invade our lands, bring down our Governments whether we are Sunnis or Syiahs, Alawait or Druze or whatever. And we aid and abet them by attacking and weakening each other, and sometimes by doing their bidding, acting as their proxies to attack fellow Muslims. We try to bring down our Governments through violence, succeeding to weaken and impoverish our countries.


We ignore entirely and we continue to ignore the Islamic injunction to unite and to be brothers to each other, we the Governments of the Islamic countries and the ummah.


But this is not all that we ignore about the teachings of Islam. We are enjoined to Read, Iqraq i.e. to acquire knowledge. The early Muslims took this to mean translating and studying the works of the Greeks and other scholars before Islam. And these Muslim scholars added to the body of knowledge through their own studies.


The early Muslims produced great mathematicians and scientists, scholars, physicians and astronomers etc. and they excelled in all the fields of knowledge of their times, besides studying and practising their own religion of Islam. As a result the Muslims were able to develop and extract wealth from their lands and through their world trade, able to strengthen their defences, protect their people and give them the Islamic way of life, Addin, as prescribed by Islam. At the time the Europeans of the Middle Ages were still superstitious and backward, the enlightened Muslims had already built a great Muslim civilisation, respected and powerful, more than able to compete with the rest of the world and able to protect the ummah from foreign aggression. The Europeans had to kneel at the feet of Muslim scholars in order to access their own scholastic heritage.


The Muslims were lead by great leaders like Abdul Rahman III, AI-Mansur, Salah El Din AI Ayubi and others who took to the battlefields at the head of their forces to protect Muslim land and the ummah.


But halfway through the building of the great Islamic civilisation came new interpreters of Islam who taught that acquisition of knowledge by Muslims meant only the study of Islamic theology. The study of science, medicine etc. was discouraged.


Intellectually the Muslims began to regress. With intellectual regression the great Muslim civilisation began to falter and wither. But for the emergence of the Ottoman warriors, Muslim civilisation would have disappeared with the fall of Granada in 1492.


The early successes of the Ottomans were not accompanied by an intellectual renaissance. Instead they became more and more preoccupied with minor issues such as whether tight trousers and peak caps were Islamic, whether printing machines should be allowed or electricity used to light mosques. The Industrial Revolution was totally missed by the Muslims. And the regression continued until the British and French instigated rebellion against Turkish rule brought about the downfall of the Ottomans, the last Muslim world power and replaced it with European colonies and not independent states as promised. It was only after World War II that these colonies became independent.


Apart from the new nation-states we also accepted the western democratic system. This also divided us because of the political parties and groups that we form, some of which claim Islam for themselves, reject the Islam of other parties and refuse to accept the results of the practice of democracy if they fail to gain power for themselves. They resort to violence, thus destabilising and weakening Muslim countries.


With all these developments over the centuries the ummah and the Muslim civilisation became so weak that at one time there was not a single Muslim country which was not colonised or hegemonised by the Europeans. But regaining independence did not help to strengthen the Muslims. Their states were weak and badly administered, constantly in a state of turmoil. The Europeans could do what they liked with Muslim territories. It is not surprising that they should excise Muslim land to create the state of Israel to solve their Jewish problem. Divided, the Muslims could do nothing effective to stop the Balfour and Zionist transgression.


Some would have us believe that, despite all these, our life is better than that of our detractors. Some believe that poverty is Islamic, sufferings and being oppressed are Islamic. This world is not for us. Ours are the joys of heaven in the afterlife. All that we have to do is to perform certain rituals, wear certain garments and put up a certain appearance. Our weakness, our backwardness and our inability to help our brothers and sisters who are being oppressed are part of the Will of Allah, the sufferings that we must endure before enjoying heaven in the hereafter. We must accept this fate that befalls us. We need not do anything. We can do nothing against the Will of Allah.


But is it true that it is the Will of Allah and that we can and should do nothing? Allah has said in Surah Ar-Ra'd verse 11 that He will not change the fate of a community until the community has tried to change its fate itself.


The early Muslims were as oppressed as we are presently. But after their sincere and determined efforts to help themselves in accordance with the teachings of Islam, Allah had helped them to defeat their enemies and to create a great and powerful Muslim civilisation. But what effort have we made especially with the resources that He has endowed us with.


We are now 1.3 billion strong. We have the biggest oil reserve in the world. We have great wealth. We are not as ignorant as the Jahilliah who embraced Islam. We are familiar with the workings of the world's economy and finances. We control 57 out of the 180 countries in the world. Our votes can make or break international organisations. Yet we seem more helpless than the small number of Jahilliah converts who accepted the Prophet as their leader. Why? Is it because of Allah's will or is it because we have interpreted our religion wrongly, or failed to abide by the correct teachings of our religion, or done the wrong things?


We are enjoined by our religion to prepare for the defence of the ummah. Unfortunately we stress not defence but the weapons of the time of the Prophet. Those weapons and horses cannot help to defend us any more. We need guns and rockets, bombs and warplanes, tanks and warships for our defence. But because we discouraged the learning of science and mathematics etc. as giving no merit for the akhirat, today we have no capacity to produce our own weapons for our defence. We have to buy our weapons from our detractors and enemies. This is what comes from the superficial interpretation of the Quran, stressing not the substance of the Prophet's sunnah and the Quran's injunctions but rather the form, the manner and the means used in the 1st Century of the Hijrah. And it is the same with the other teachings of Islam. We are more concerned with the forms rather than the substance of the words of Allah and adhering only to the literal interpretation of the traditions of the Prophet.


We may want to recreate the first century of the Hijrah, the way of life in those times, in order to practise what we think to be the true Islamic way of life. But we will not be allowed to do so. Our detractors and enemies will take advantage of the resulting backwardness and weakness in order to dominate us. Islam is not just for the 7th Century A.D. Islam is for all times. And times have changed. Whether we like it or not we have to change, not by changing our religion but by applying its teachings in the context of a world that is radically different from that of the first century of the Hijrah. Islam is not wrong but the interpretations by our scholars, who are not prophets even though they may be very learned can be wrong. We have a need to go back to the fundamental teachings of Islam to find out whether we are indeed believing in and practising the Islam that the Prophet preached. It cannot be that we are all practising the correct and true Islam when our beliefs are so different from one another.


Today we, the whole Muslim ummah are treated with contempt and dishonour. Our religion is denigrated. Our holy places desecrated. Our countries are occupied. Our people starved and killed.


None of our countries are truly independent. We are under pressure to conform to our oppressors' wishes about how we should behave, how we should govern our lands, how we should think even.


Today if they want to raid our country, kill our people, destroy our villages and towns, there is nothing substantial that we can do. Is it Islam which has caused all these? Or is it that we have failed to do our duty according to our religion?


Our only reaction is to become more and more angry. Angry people cannot think properly. And so we find some of our people reacting irrationally. They launch their own attacks, killing just about anybody including fellow Muslims to vent their anger and frustration. Their Governments can do nothing to stop them. The enemy retaliates and puts more pressure on the Governments. And the Governments have no choice but to give in, to accept the directions of the enemy, literally to give up their independence of action.


With this their people and the ummah become angrier and turn against their own Governments. Every attempt at a peaceful solution is sabotaged by more indiscriminate attacks calculated to anger the enemy and prevent any peaceful settlement. But the attacks solve nothing. The Muslims simply get more oppressed.


There is a feeling of hopelessness among the Muslim countries and their people. They feel that they can do nothing right. They believe that things can only get worse. The Muslims will forever be oppressed and dominated by the Europeans and the Jews. They will forever be poor, backward and weak. Some believe, as I have said, this is the Will of Allah, that the proper state of the Muslims is to be poor and oppressed in this world.


But is it true that we should do and can do nothing for ourselves? Is it true that 1.3 billion people can exert no power to save themselves from the humiliation and oppression inflicted upon them by a much smaller enemy? Can they only lash back blindly in anger? Is there no other way than to ask our young people to blow themselves up and kill people and invite the massacre of more of our own people?


It cannot be that there is no other way. 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews. There must be a way. And we can only find a way if we stop to think, to assess our weaknesses and our strength, to plan, to strategise and then to counter attack. As Muslims we must seek guidance from the Al-Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet. Surely the 23 years' struggle of the Prophet can provide us with some guidance as to what we can and should do.


We know he and his early followers were oppressed by the Qhuraish. Did he launch retaliatory strikes? No. He was prepared to make strategic retreats. He sent his early followers to a Christian country and he himself later migrated to Madinah. There he gathered followers, built up his defence capability and ensured the security of his people. At Hudaibiyah he was prepared to accept an unfair treaty, against the wishes of his companions and followers. During the peace that followed he consolidated his strength and eventually he was able to enter Mecca and claim it for Islam. Even then he did not seek revenge. And the peoples of Mecca accepted Islam and many became his most powerful supporters, defending the Muslims against all their enemies.


That briefly is the story of the struggle of the Prophet. We talk so much about following the sunnah of the Prophet. We quote the instances and the traditions profusely. But we actually ignore all of them.


If we use the faculty to think that Allah has given us then we should know that we are acting irrationally. We fight without any objective, without any goal other than to hurt the enemy because they hurt us. Naively we expect them to surrender. We sacrifice lives unnecessarily, achieving nothing other than to attract more massive retaliation and humiliation.


It is surety time that we pause to think. But will this be wasting time? For well over half a century we have fought over Palestine. What have we achieved? Nothing. We are worse off than before. If we had paused to think then we could have devised a plan, a strategy that can win us final victory. Pausing and thinking calmly is not a waste of time. We have a need to make a strategic retreat and to calmly assess our situation.


We are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.


We may not be able to do that. We may not be able to unite all the 1.3 billion Muslims. We may not be able to get all the Muslim Governments to act in concert. But even if we can get a third of the ummah and a third of the Muslim states to act together, we can already do something. Remember that the Prophet did not have many followers when he went to Madinah. But he united the Ansars and the Muhajirins and eventually he became strong enough to defend Islam.


Apart from the partial unity that we need, we must take stock of our assets. I have already mentioned our numbers and our oil wealth. In today's world we wield a lot of political, economic and financial clout, enough to make up for our weakness in military terms.


We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. Some are welldisposed towards us. Some even see our enemies as their enemies. Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing.


We must not antagonise everyone. We must win their hearts and minds. We must win them to our side not by begging for help from them but by the honourable way that we struggle to help ourselves. We must not strengthen the enemy by pushing everyone into their camps through irresponsible and unIslamic acts. Remember Salah El Din and the way he fought against the so called Crusaders, King Richard of England in particular. Remember the considerateness of the Prophet to the enemies of Islam. We must do the same. It is winning the struggle that is important, not angry retaliation, not revenge.


We must build up our strength in every field, not just in armed might. Our countries must be stable and well administered, must be economically and financially strong, industrially competent and technologically advanced. This will take time, but it can be done and it will be time well spent. We are enjoined by our religion to be patient. Innallahamaasabirin. Obviously there is virtue in being patient.


But the defence of the ummah, the counter attack need not start only after we have put our houses in order. Even today we have sufficient assets to deploy against our detractors. It remains for us to identify them and to work out how to make use of them to stop the carnage caused by the enemy. This is entirely possible if we stop to think, to plan, to strategise and to take the first few critical steps. Even these few steps can yield positive results.


We know that the Jahilliah Arabs were given to feuding, to killing each other simply because they were from different tribes. The Prophet preached the brotherhood of Islam to them and they were able to overcome their hatred for each other, become united and helped towards the establishment of the great Muslim civilisation. Can we say that what the Jahilliah (the ignorant) could do we, the modern Muslims cannot do? If not all at least some of us can do. If not the renaissance of our great civilisation, at least ensuring the security of the ummah.


To do the things that are suggested will not even require all of us to give up our differences with each other. We need only to call a truce so we can act together in tackling only certain problems of common interests, the Palestine problem for example.


In any struggle, in any war, nothing is more important than concerted and coordinated action. A degree of discipline is all that is needed. The Prophet lost in Jabal Uhud because his forces broke rank. We know that, yet we are unwilling to discipline ourselves and to give up our irregular and uncoordinated actions. We need to be brave but not foolhardy. We need to think not just of our reward in the afterlife but also of the worldly results of our mission.


The Quran tells us that when the enemy sues for peace we must react positively. True the treaty offered is not favourable to us. But we can negotiate. The Prophet did, at Hudaibiyah. And in the end he triumphed.

I am aware that all these ideas will not be popular. Those who are angry would want to reject it out of hand. They would even want to silence anyone who makes or supports this line of action. They would want to send more young men and women to make the supreme sacrifice. But where will all these lead to? Certainly not victory. Over the past 50 years of fighting in Palestine we have not achieved any result. We have in fact worsened our situation.


The enemy will probably welcome these proposals and we will conclude that the promoters are working for the enemy. But think. We are up against a people who think. They survived 2000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. They invented and successfully promoted Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power. We cannot fight them through brawn alone. We must use our brains also.


Of late because of their power and their apparent success they have become arrogant. And arrogant people, like angry people will make mistakes, will forget to think.


They are already beginning to make mistakes. And they will make more mistakes. There may be windows of opportunity for us now and in the future. We must seize these opportunities.


But to do so we must get our acts right. Rhetoric is good. It helps us to expose the wrongs perpetrated against us, perhaps win us some sympathy and support. It may strengthen our spirit, our will and resolve, to face the enemy.


We can and we should pray to Allah S.W.T. for in the end it is He who will determine whether we succeed or fail. We need His blessings and His help in our endeavours,

But it is how we act and what we do which will determine whether He would help us and give us victory or not. He has already said so in the Quran. Again Surah Ar-Ra'd verse 11.


As I said at the beginning, the whole world is looking at us, the whole Muslim ummah is placing their hopes in this conference of the leaders of Islamic nations. They expect us not just to vent our frustrations and anger, through words and gestures; not just to pray for Allah's blessings. They expect us to do something, to act. We cannot say we cannot do anything, we the leaders of the Muslim nations. We cannot say we cannot unite even when faced with the destruction of our religion and the ummah.


We know we can. There are many things that we can do. There are many resources that we have at our disposal. What is needed is merely-the will to do it, As Muslims, we must be grateful for the guidance of our religion, we must do what needs to be done, willingly and with determination. Allah has not raised us, the leaders, above the others so we may enjoy power for ourselves only. The power we wield is for our people, for the ummah, for Islam. We must have the will to make use of this power judiciously, prudently, concertedly. Insyaallah we will triumph in the end.


I pray to Allah that this 10th Conference of the OIC in Putrajaya, Malaysia will give a new and positive direction to us, will be blessed with success by Him, Almighty Allah, Arahman, Arahirn.


An unabridged version of the speech by the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Dr Mahathir Bin Mohamad at the opening of the tenth session of the Islamic Summit Conference at Putrajaya, Malaysia on 16 October 2003.



Dr Mahathir Mohamad speaking

Now does that look like a hate speech to you ? Mahathirs never said anything anti-semetic as the following quote from his speech shows.

We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. Some are welldisposed towards us. Some even see our enemies as their enemies. Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing.

Mahathir is a moderate Islamic leader of the 21st century. Muslims all over the world look to him for his wise guidence. He has turned Malaysia from a backward colony to a prosperous nation. People hope that he could do the same thing to other muslim countries.

Mahathir does not support terrorism and fundermentalism. In his own country he has blocked efforts by Islamic parties to introduce amputation punishment in two provinces. He openly condemns terrorism. He is the perfect role model for other muslim leaders to follow.

[AniThyng]

Mahathir is a moderate Islamic leader of the 21st century. Muslims all over the world look to him for his wise guidence. He has turned Malaysia from a backward colony to a prosperous nation. People hope that he could do the same thing to other muslim countries.

Mahathir does not support terrorism and fundermentalism. In his own country he has blocked efforts by Islamic parties to introduce amputation punishment in two provinces. He openly condemns terrorism. He is the perfect role model for other muslim leaders to follow.

*shrugs and points to the prosperous/middle class ethnic chinese population of Malaysia [30%] and moderate urban malays that will always ensure mahathir and his party does not emulate the Islamic opposition.*

without us.........then malaysia would be no better off then indonesia.


anyway, from the same taipei news thing.

The thrust of Mahathir's address, made at the Organization of the Islamic Conference in Kuala Lumpur, was that the world's 1.3 billion Muslims had been outmaneuvered by "a few million Jews" and needed to give up violence and think hard about greater unity and improved education to defend their interests peacefully.

at the very least, he isn't advocating Jihad or some such nonsense.


gaaah. i'd move to singapore, but then i won't be able to eat chewing gum.

[Wicked Pilot]

So you believe that the active goal of right-wing foreign policy is to bring about armegeddon?

National policies towards Israel are supported most vehemetly by a small Zionist lobby, and a lot of Christian fundies. The goal of the Zionist is simply to support a nation which shares predominately the same religion as themselves. The goal of the Christian fundies it to force the prophesies found in the book of Relevations.

Then why are we having this conversation after two terms of Ronald Reagan during the Cold War?

Nuclear armegeddon and Biblical armegeddon are two different things. Nuclear armegeddon was averted at least particially due to to the collapse of the USSR, Biblical armegeddon has not yet occured because it is just a stupid prophesy.

[Lilith]

....

Now does that look like a hate speech to you ? Mahathirs never said anything anti-semetic as the following quote from his speech shows.

Evilcat, bear in mind that Mahatir charged the Jews with "running the world", which is frequently a charge used to instill fear in people. He also said that "the Jews get others to fight for them". These are serious charges, and not backed by a shred of evidence.

We also know that not all non-Muslims are against us. Some are welldisposed towards us. Some even see our enemies as their enemies. Even among the Jews there are many who do not approve of what the Israelis are doing.

This is true, in fact I am one of the Jews that does not just nod in agreement woth everything Israel does. But that does not make his charge any less. This is like a bigot who say, "don't get the wrong idea, some of my best friends are _______"

Mahathir is a moderate Islamic leader of the 21st century. Muslims all over the world look to him for his wise guidence. ...

...He openly condemns terrorism. He is the perfect role model for other muslim leaders to follow.

Actually, though, while I would not say he is 'perfect' I do agree he is for the most part correct in his assessment and much more of a proper, moderate example compared to other Islamic states.

[Coyote]

Whoops!



That was ME, signed into Lilith's account. Sorry.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Nuclear armegeddon and Biblical armegeddon are two different things. Nuclear armegeddon was averted at least particially due to to the collapse of the USSR, Biblical armegeddon has not yet occured because it is just a stupid prophesy.

Actually most fundies like that out there believed that the Soviet Union was in fact one of the countries prophesied in Biblical prophesy, and that it would invade Israel. There have been some bizzare ideas out there postulating a resurgency of Russia/USSR by the real lunatics for just those reasons.

Really, people like that do not and never have controlled foreign policy or the government and it is silly to think so. The support for Israel has been based pretty clearly on the need to counter Soviet influence in the Arab world (they got an upper hand in the Arab world due to the hatred of the colonial powers there--which were associated with through NATO). This support has lasted for so many decades that extensive trade and technology exchange ties built up, and combined with the close immigration ties between Israel and the USA--many American Jews have Israeli relatives for example, nothing more sinister than that--the lobby grew sufficient to sustain these ties through a combination of inertia and the claimed economic factors. Now, yes, these economic factors might not be as big as those in the rest of the Arab world--but they're big for the individual companies involved, and those companies are powerful lobbying ones (which are more often than not in any way owned by Jews).

[pellaeons_scion]

Re:Mahathirs speech


This is moderate???? I got half way through before my brain shutdown

To begin with, the Governments of all the Muslim countries can close ranks and have a common stand if not on all issues, at least on some major ones, such as on Palestine. We are all Muslims. We are all oppressed. We are all being humiliated. But we who have been raised by Allah above our fellow Muslims to rule our countries have never really tried to act in concert in order to exhibit at our level the brotherhood and unity that Islam enjoins upon us.

Ah yes. Lets just close ranks, and defy that evil Western world. Rather than try and understand one another, or build bridges between cultures, lets just rail against the western world. As for Humiliation, how and where is this occuring? Even the Iraqi war wasnt truly based on religion, same goes for th Afghani one.

Islam is not wrong but the interpretations by our scholars, who are not prophets even though they may be very learned can be wrong.

wow something i agree with..

We must not antagonise everyone. We must win their hearts and minds. We must win them to our side not by begging for help from them but by the honourable way that we struggle to help ourselves. We must not strengthen the enemy by pushing everyone into their camps through irresponsible and unIslamic acts. Remember Salah El Din and the way he fought against the so called Crusaders, King Richard of England in particular. Remember the considerateness of the Prophet to the enemies of Islam. We must do the same. It is winning the struggle that is important, not angry retaliation, not revenge.

But you are antagonising. Advocating for a muslim state with the ideal that it must struggle against the west is exactly that.

Moderate my ass..

[AniThyng]

Re:Mahathirs speech


This is moderate???? I got half way through before my brain shutdown

Quote:
To begin with, the Governments of all the Muslim countries can close ranks and have a common stand if not on all issues, at least on some major ones, such as on Palestine. We are all Muslims. We are all oppressed. We are all being humiliated. But we who have been raised by Allah above our fellow Muslims to rule our countries have never really tried to act in concert in order to exhibit at our level the brotherhood and unity that Islam enjoins upon us.


Ah yes. Lets just close ranks, and defy that evil Western world. Rather than try and understand one another, or build bridges between cultures, lets just rail against the western world. As for Humiliation, how and where is this occuring? Even the Iraqi war wasnt truly based on religion, same goes for th Afghani one.

1) when the american president stops pandering to his audience, maybe my blowhard PM will stop pandering to his
2) malaysia is not only acyive in the OIC, it is also active in ASEAN (not entirely muslim) APEC (east asian), the UN (duh), The Commonwealth (britain? australia?).
3) you are taking it the wrong way, what he is saying is that muslim nations need to have a common stand, a common foreign policy, preferably one not dominated by either earning western oil money while opressing thier populations, or one that is mired in internal power grabbing. does america let france and europe dictate policy? no? then don't whine about hpow the muslim world *should* also try to have some sort of coherant voice to moderate both itself and the unchecked superpower.
4) YOU and I may not see Iraq and afganistan as humiliations. many muslims DO. It is not merely about eliminating Saddam. and once again, when your president and certain rangking generals stop using religiously loaded words like crusade or doing stupid things like sending preachers in the army's wake, then you have a case.


what do you wish him to advocate> for a muslim that that rolls over to be assraped by the west?

look, i'm sorry must muslims in the arab world are backwords, ignorant savages who see only violence as the answer.

ANd read it properly. I called for a muslim state that can "win the hearts and minds of the west"
This obviously means NO SUICDIE BOMBING, NO VIOLENCE, NO INFIDEL BURNING.
of course mahathir doesn't care if you all think islam and christianity are by default barbaric religions with no place in modern society...he is still a religious person. that is really too bad, but since GW Bush is certainly not an athiest, we can gloss that over till next election, eh.


i'm sorry if you do not think he is moderate, i defy you to name me a muslim leader who is more moderate then him.

*taps foot waiting*

[pellaeons_scion]

No, I advocate the seperation between church and state that causes this insanity.

As for participating in the commonwealth, he openly snubs and insults australia...not too many other nations do that. Howard deserves it for the most part, but Mahathir has been agitating against us before our current Moron of state. Im not even sure why..

you are taking it the wrong way, what he is saying is that muslim nations need to have a common stand, a common foreign policy, preferably one not dominated by either earning western oil money while opressing thier populations, or one that is mired in internal power grabbing. does america let france and europe dictate policy? no? then don't whine about hpow the muslim world *should* also try to have some sort of coherant voice to moderate both itself and the unchecked superpower.

As far as I can see the muslim nations of the pacific arnt dominated by oil money? They seem to have relatively strong economies based on other industries, not just mineral wealth. As for the US not allowing the european nations to dictate policy to them, I dont think thats entirely relevant, or are you saying that nations should blithely ignore others and do whatever they please?

Yes the UN doesnt have much teeth, but its at least an attempt to try and moderate the extreme policies of the US and others. Sometimes it succceds, but in this case the US promptly did what it could always have done: whatever it pleased. No other nation can really challenge it (cept china perhaps, but why would they care). Yes I believe in a rational world, that what other nations have to think should have some bearing on world affairs (particularly military action on others).

Yes I believe that all nations should have at least a say in what goes on. Unfortunately we are in a position now that there is one big military power that can do whatever it pleases, without caring about consequences. A quot from babylon5 comes to mind "The avalance has started, it is too late for the pebble to vote" Unfortunately, your country, and mine are the pebbles.

OU and I may not see Iraq and afganistan as humiliations. many muslims DO. It is not merely about eliminating Saddam. and once again, when your president and certain rangking generals stop using religiously loaded words like crusade or doing stupid things like sending preachers in the army's wake, then you have a case

I agree with you on this point. Certain ranking generals have let their own personal opinions be aired which can do nothing but increase the tension. But again this comes back to their position of power. If you are unchallenged, then you will say whatever you please, with no real recourse. (Not true of course, as that kind of talk breeds hatred, which breeds fanatiscism, which breeds martyrs). This (the iraq conflict) was supposed to be about revenge, and the supposed freeing of Iraq from Saddam.

Talking about it as a "Crusade" against "Satan" or whatever is moronic. The further stupidity is the arrogance displayed by the Pentagon in not censuring the General for his comments.

I dont believe the Brit and Aussie and other nations soldiers view this as a crusade, or a holy war. Im not a soldier on the ground, so I cant really say what they are thinking. But if I was I dont believe I would see myself as a crusader, Id be more worried that everytime some other religious dick opened their mouth it was one more reason for the average citizen on an iraqi street to shoot me through the head.

As for the "Assraping" Why would they even bother? If only for the casualties they'd sustain after their "Victory" its not worth it. The only reasons I would truly see would be back to religion. Im not saying that wars would end with the end of religion, but without it, perhaps we could build a better understanding of each other. And besides, these are sovereign states, no one has the right to invade, and institute "Their" forms of Govt on a people, particularly if it wasnt wanted. But its happened, and its a terrible backslide for democracy and diplomacy.

Sorry, I cant name another more moderate muslim. But, still if thats moderate, then we are in deep trouble.

[AniThyng]

well, Keating snubbed him once at a APEC (i think) meeting a few years ago and called him..er...recalteirant[or however the heck it's spelled. i think it means stubborn.]

okay, i agree he sprouts alot of BS abt australia and it not beiong asian and bla blah blah. it's just rethoric. alot of malaysians studied in australia, they don't see her as a threat. [well, he's retiring from the PM-ship, to be replaced by his deputy, a man that is to me incredibly dull. competant, but dull. perhaps that will be better.]

yes, the muslim nations of the pacific are not dominated by oil money. Mahathir wants to try to get the other mostly arab nations to at least try to be sometghing other then oil sheikdoms with zero else for an economy.

as for the unity, the point is in today's world individual nations have not much voice, it is mahathirs hope that the combined weight of the muslim bloc can migitate and 'moderate' the unchecked power of the USA.



i'm not sure if i properly adressed your points..but i have to run to class now i'll clarify later if i'm free.