Has John Williams lost his touch?

[CorSec]

I can't remember if any of his latest pieces have been memorable. Even Duel of the Fates was kind of.. eh, compared to the majestic thundering of Darth Vader/The Imperial Theme.

But lately.. his work has been.. eh. I'm always reminded of the Family Guy episode where he's up for a Woody for best soundtrack in a Porn Film.

Another vote for Across the Stars. It sounded terrible in the movie, mostly because it felt overused, but on the soundtrack it's very moving. John Williams did a better job of encapsulating the tragic romance between Anakin and Padme much better than George ever could. In my opinion, it's one of his best pieces.

I also think he did a great job with Catch Me If You Can.

Sure, they may not exactly compare to the more easily memorable and identifiable themes he's composed (Star Wars, Superman, Indiana Jones), but that doesn't mean it isn't good music.

Going back to the Episode II soundtrack, The Chase Through Coruscant was suspensful, dramatic and invigorating. He even uses a typewriter - yes, a typewriter - to good effect within it.

Say what you want about the closing credits to Episode I, but I liked the energy of it. Yes, it takes some getting used to because you have to disassociate it from the Gungans but it's still good music.

[Lord Pounder]

We'll see how he does with Ep III. Personally i think Williams has been at his best when dealing with darker themes and considering the way Ep III is suposed to be i'd say we're in for something memorable visually and musically in that movie.

[YT300000]

I disagree that Williams has lost any skill- when it comes to SW movies.

Lets look at the soundtracks, specifically the tracks I liked.

Ep 1:

2. Duel of the Fates: I don't need to comment on this
3. Anakin's Theme: Imperial March, just slowed down, and made all gentle and flowery. Great bit of premonition.
5. The Sith Spacecraft and the Droid Battle: I liked it.
8. He is the Chosen One: Good use of The Force theme in here.
12-15. Nice combat themes (except for 13, which wasn't fighting, but was nice, dark and moody) I loved 14, my favorite track on this CD.
16. The High Council Meeting and Qui-Gon's funeral: Fits perfectly with Qui-Gon's death.
17. Augies Great Municipal Band and End Credits: Pure genius. Most people hate it. But listen closer- it's the Emperor's Theme, just sped up and twisted around. Another great premonition.

Ep 2:

2. Across the Stars: Very chilling and beautiful
3. Zam the Assassin and Chase Through Coruscant: Interesting. The only time you'll hear a guitar solo in SW. Fits perfectly.
4. Yoda and The Younglings: Not bad, works perfectly with the scene, uses The Force theme well.
6+8. Different versions of #2. Not as good or compelling, but definitely not mediocre.
7. Jango's Escape: Wonderful. In the theatres, I grinned when I heard it. Very similar to the Dark Forces track Boba Fett Attacks (no surprise), just faster and with a slightly different tune.
9. Bounty Hunter's Pursuit: Loved it. Impending sense of doom. Especially loved the end of it- clonetroopers in formation, with the Droid Invasion theme.
10. Return to Tatooine: Not bad, nice slow, gentle theme.
11. The Tusken Camp and The Homestead: Loved how JW worked the Duel of the Fates into there.
12. Love Pledge and the Arena: Best use of Across the Stars yet, arena fits perfectly with the battle.
13. Confrontation with Dooku and the Finale: Loved the start, Imperial March blew my socks off (great in the theatre, Acclamators taking off-woah).

Note: I didn't include track 1 from either, because its the Main Theme, and didn't change too much in either from the OT. Okay, I'm lying, but you see my point.

[Steve]

Does anyone know what the music from the Nazi rally in The Last Crusade is called? I love that piece.

It's not on the released soundtrack, I believe. *looks at CD case* Nope.

[Sriad]

You know he only writes little snippets of melody and a handful of people do all the orchestrations, voicings, transitions, etc., right?

Not to devalue the work of these undoubtedly talented people, but the principal melody of, say, the "Raiders" theme is the only part that we all walk around humming when we think of the movie, isn't it?

Maybe you do, but I think the other stuff, at least. I mean, how much better do all the drums and backbeats and stuff make the Imperial March?

Anyway, only writing a fraction of a piece smacks of laziness and a lack of commitment. It's not just the pretty tunes that make Robert Schumann's songs great, it's also the artistic accompanyment, the intricate interplay between voices, and all that stuff that you can't do without getting deeply involved with the process.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

As Zaia said, since Williams isn't responsible for all of the nuances of the orchestrations, no wonder why the music sounds much different today than it did back in the 70's and 80's. If you're going to blame anyone for the crappy bland-sounding music of the prequels, blame the modern musical styles of the orchestras he's working with. Don't get me wrong, there are many outstanding melodies introduced into the prequels and other movies in general, but anything without a decent-sounding melody quickly deteriorates into some boring modern crap that is there just because you need some sort of music for the movie.

For instance, the theme music to the conveyor belt scene in AotC. It was just indistinguishable, random crap with percussion strewn about. I didn't like it at all. Compare that to the rancor scene music in RotJ and you'll see what I mean. The orchestra seems to become a monster itself. Interestingly enough, you can hear that the action scene music from AI and Minority Report is just like the conveyor belt scene music--boring. And, perhaps it might be my fuzzy memory, I think I remember the same type of boring music in Jurassic Park III. Trust me, it's the orchestration styles from the 70s-80s to today that are different--not Williams.

Also, don't forget Williams also did ET and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Great music there too. And, I'm sort of embarrassed to say it, I like his Harry Potter's music too. There...I said it.

[Zaia]

Yeah, thanks, Joe. JW has been involved in composition for decade and decades. I know a couple of people have brought up movie scores other than SW, but not too many. If you're going to assess his abilities and make a pronoucement about whether or not his talent is waning, you might want to broaden your scope. He's done more than SW, Indiana and Jurassic Park.

According to his website, he's worked on scores to over 80 films. Here are some of them:

Saving Private Ryan
Amistad
Seven Years in Tibet
The Lost World
Rosewood
Sleepers
Nixon
Sabrina
Schindler's List
Jurassic Park
Home Alone
Far and Away
JFK
Hook
Presumed Innocent
Always
Born on the Fourth of July
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
The Accidental Tourist
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
Empire of the Sun
The Witches of Eastwick
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Star Wars: A New Hope
E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial
Raiders of the Lost Ark (Indy Numero Uno, of course)
Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
Superman
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Star Wars: The Return of the Jedi
Jaws
Goodbye Mr. Chips

He's also composed the NBC News theme "The Mission," "Liberty Fanfare" composed for the re-dedication of the Statue of Liberty, "We're Lookin' Good!," composed for the Special Olympics in celebration of the 1987 International Summer Games, and themes for the 1984, 1988, and 1996 Summer Olympic games.

Also, since a lot of you are mentioning "Duel of the Fates," his site supplies the information that, in that piece, the chorus is singing lines from a Robert Graves poem that have been translated into Sanskrit. In case you didn't know that (like I didn't). It gives the full lyrics, if you're interested.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Another interesting fact is that he composed the music to every Spielberg movie with the exception of "The Color Purple."

[Steve]

themes for the 1984, 1988, and 1996 Summer Olympic games.

As I possess the CD published during the 2000 Olympics with Olympic music, I can tell you that the 84 one is simply called the Olympic Fanfare, and is usually combined with the late Leo Arnaud's Bugler's Dream fanfare from the 68 Olympics in Grenoble, the 88 piece is called the Olympic Spirit, and the 96 Olympic piece is called "Summon the Heroes".

JW also did the 2002 Winter Olympics theme "Call of the Champions". Probably the least of the four, but still quite good.

Also, since a lot of you are mentioning "Duel of the Fates," his site supplies the information that, in that piece, the chorus is singing lines from a Robert Graves poem that have been translated into Sanskrit. In case you didn't know that (like I didn't). It gives the full lyrics, if you're interested.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

But I think DOTF has a competitor in "Liberi Fatali", a piece sung in Latin and composed by Nobuo Uematsu for the intro video of Final Fantasy VIII.

[RogueIce]

But I think DOTF has a competitor in "Liberi Fatali", a piece sung in Latin and composed by Nobuo Uematsu for the intro video of Final Fantasy VIII.

Yeah, that and "Fithos" in there, too. Two vey good songs. Hell, he does great work.

But, for movie stuff, I'm really starting to lean towards Hans Zimmer nowadays. The Rock (especially first part of track one and all of track two) is great (I love how track two works both together, and split up over various parts of the movie), Broken Arrow, Pearl Harbor (yes, the Jerry Bruckheimer one), Tears of the Sun (gotta love track nine, though this is more a collaboration), Black Hawk Down (Leave No Man Behind...man, that is moving, especially the variations in the movie), Crimson Tide, Enemy of the State (it had others making it too), and Backdraft (the main theme).

There are also more I was surprised to see his name on, but I can't remember them all now. But, Hans Zimmer does some great stuff, and as of now, I think his CDs equal or top William's in my collection.

[Steve]

Bah! You forgot Gladiator!

Definitely one of Zimmer's best works. Particularly "Barbarian Horde" and "The Battle".

I also like the tracks he did for The Peacemaker (the nuke movie with George Clooney and Nicole Kidman), particularly "Devoe's Revenge" and "The Chase".

[RogueIce]

Bah! You forgot Gladiator!

Definitely one of Zimmer's best works. Particularly "Barbarian Horde" and "The Battle".

He did that?

Pretty sweet...

[Steve]

It's really no wonder that Nobuo Uematsu is considered the John Williams of the gaming world, even though he's famous only for composing the music for Final Fantasy.

But that's good enough. Even his poorest showing, arguably FFIX, had memorable tracks. And when one considers that every game since the first on SNES, save FFIX, has been excellent....

Nobuo Uematsu is one of the greatest composers in the world, IMHO. Liberi Fatali is to video games what Duel of the Fates is to fantasy and sci-fi.

It's my dream to have the ending credits themes from FFV and FFVI given the full orchastra treatment.

Of course, I'd consider my life complete if Final Fantasy VI got the Peter Jackson treatment, and unlike the last FF movie, for which they got medicore Elliot Goldenthal to compose music, I'd want them to give Uematsu a full Orchastra to play the game's music.

[Vertigo1]

Personally, I think he did a hell of a job on "The Patriot" and "Jarassic Park" soundtracks. I don't see how the JP theme couldn't affect you emotionally.

That being said, he's not as good as Hans Zimmer. Close, but no cigar.

[Zaia]

themes for the 1984, 1988, and 1996 Summer Olympic games.

As I possess the CD published during the 2000 Olympics with Olympic music, I can tell you that the 84 one is simply called the Olympic Fanfare, and is usually combined with the late Leo Arnaud's Bugler's Dream fanfare from the 68 Olympics in Grenoble, the 88 piece is called the Olympic Spirit, and the 96 Olympic piece is called "Summon the Heroes".

JW also did the 2002 Winter Olympics theme "Call of the Champions". Probably the least of the four, but still quite good.

Ok. I just cut and pasted that bit from his website. *shrugs* But I believe you and all.

But I think DOTF has a competitor in "Liberi Fatali", a piece sung in Latin and composed by Nobuo Uematsu for the intro video of Final Fantasy VIII.

Oh, totally--that intro is part of the reason I love that game beyond all reason. SO AWESOME!!

[jenat-lai]

Get Phil Glass doing movies

I didn't realise John Williams didn't orchestrate his own music. darn.

Though there are differences here too. Orchestration can be (from worse to best):

1: I made up a few themes, can you guys write a pice based on this?
2: I wrote a melodic line and a few harmonic ideas, put it together for me please
3: I'v written an entire piece on piano/computer/whatever, it's complete and works, I just need you guys to make an orchestra play it instead of this single instrument
4: I'v written this piece for piano/computer/whatever it's complete and works, I have some ideas about how the instruments will share the melodys and harmonies. I think this line here should be trumpets and then the melody goes to strings. I'll show you which instruments should play what, and you guys tell me if the instruments can play it, or if I need to change something to make it work for the musicians.
5: I'v written this entire piece in full score. but Im not sure if the Basoon can play that range, also the leaps here in the trombone might be a bit much to play, got any ideas on how to make it work?


if it's 3 4 or 5 it's no big deal. if it's 1 or 2 then one could say that it has been composed by other people.


Oh, and in my opinion
Real Composer = John Adams.


I reccon him doing a film score would be truly cool, but he's buisy writing Opera and Symphonic music.

[Kuja]

But that's good enough. Even his poorest showing, arguably FFIX, had memorable tracks. And when one considers that every game since the first on SNES, save FFIX, has been excellent....

*mutters unprintables*

[Steve]

But that's good enough. Even his poorest showing, arguably FFIX, had memorable tracks. And when one considers that every game since the first on SNES, save FFIX, has been excellent....

*mutters unprintables*

It's all relative, if you think about it. Even a showing relatively poor compared to others can be excellent and entertaining.

[Admiral Valdemar]

No one can ever touch Ennio Morricone though.

[Slartibartfast]

You know he only writes little snippets of melody and a handful of people do all the orchestrations, voicings, transitions, etc., right?

Not to devalue the work of these undoubtedly talented people, but the principal melody of, say, the "Raiders" theme is the only part that we all walk around humming when we think of the movie, isn't it?

Actually I hum the entire thing from start to finish...

[McNum]

It's my dream to have the ending credits themes from FFV and FFVI given the full orchastra treatment.

Of course, I'd consider my life complete if Final Fantasy VI got the Peter Jackson treatment, and unlike the last FF movie, for which they got medicore Elliot Goldenthal to compose music, I'd want them to give Uematsu a full Orchastra to play the game's music.

Well... http://www.altpop.com/stc/features/fforch.htm

Not quite what you asked for, but it is Nobou Uematsu and a full orchestra.

Liberi Fatali is there and so is FF6's main theme. Of course the universal credits theme is there, too.