ST Photorps — Not As Powerful As They're Cracked Up To Be?

[Patrick Degan]

In one thread that I've participated in recently, the discussion turned to photon torpedoes and how powerful they are in actuality. We know the figures that the TNG and DS9 Technical Manuals give us, which stretch into the megaton range of blast yield. Many fan-produced TMs have also granted MT-range blast yields. But, are they really so powerful? Because the canon visual evidence paints an entirely different picture.

Consider: whenever a photon torpedo has detonated against a deflector shield, have we ever seen a nuclear-event fireball accompanying the blast? Have we ever seen a shield glow so substantially in absorbing and reradiating the photorp's energy burst that the resulting luminecense completely obscured the target ship? Or have we only ever seen a single bright flash which dispersed almost immediately afterward or a cloud of superheated gasses which also dispersed in less than a second?

Consider photorp impacts against unshielded targets that we've seen in the movies. In Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan both the Enterprise and the Reliant take direct torpedo hits while completely unshielded and the results are either surface damage against the hull or a blasted out photorp launcher. If megaton or even kiloton yields were being realised, neither ship should have survived. In Star Trek III: The Search For Spock both the E-nil and Commander Kruge's Bird Of Prey take direct torpedo hits while unshielded. The BOP suffers internal damage, minor surface damage, sudden momentum change in reaction to the impact, and the ship takes on a large static electrical charge on the hull, while the E-nil suffers minor surface damage, more serious internal damage which knocks out her engines and firecontrol, and a static electrical charge on the hull.

In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier Kirk calls down a photorp strike on his position in an effort to destroy the False God entity on Sha Ka Ree and the resultant blast is not even kiloton-yield and certainly less than 100 tons of TNT (100 isotons). And in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country the E-A takes one photorp hit after shield failure from Gen. Chang's BOP. The torpedo, from what we see, inflicts mostly kinetic damage on the E-A with the object blasting through the saucer section. Had the warhead detonated, there should have been considerably greater damage to the spaceframe, and had the blast been in the kiloton or megaton range, the E-A should have been reduced to radioactive dust. And finally, there is Generations, in which the E-D takes three photorp hits on her hull fired from the Duras BOP but suffering only three hull breaches in the immediate impact areas.

Often, the excuse for these incidents has been the fallback to "low yield" photorps. Except that, never once, in any line of dialogue or in any computer screen display do we ever see or hear of any distincition between high-yield and low-yield warheads, or any order to "switch to low-yield", or any photorp blast which is greater than the ones we have observed in the movies and episodes.

About the only accurate measure that we can find that's akin to the "asteroid vapourisation" gauge from SW is to be found in Star Trek: The Motion Picture in which a small, irregularly-shaped asteroid is drawn into the wormhole tunnel generated by the unbalanced warp engines of the E-nil. With the phasers taken out of action by the imbalance, a photon torpedo is used to destroy the asteroid. From the appearance of the body in question, based upon some admittedly crude scaling and perspective measures of the object in comparison with the starship in the foreground of the scene, the asteroid looks to be not quite as large as the Enterprise, perhaps fifty metres in length.

If any reasonably accurate measures can be made of this asteroid, then we may have a more accurate picture of the blast yields that can be expected from photon torpedoes.

[omegaLancer]

Would not the antimatter and matter in a photon torp, destroy each other in a burst of gamma rays..

With no atomsphere to heat there would be no fire ball just a small flash, and a burst of invisible radiation..

So just going on what is seen is not good enought..

[EmperorMing]

Torpedo impacts look more like a submarine torp impact: kinetic damage with or without detonation.

Of course, if they are using warheads on par with level of the Davey Crocket, then I could see this happeneing. But then why would you use a warhead with so low a yield in starship combat? Makes no sense.



(For those of you wondering about the Davey Crocket, it was a tactical nuke with a supposed yield of about 10 tons of TNTor 0.01 kt)

[EmperorMing]

Another thing, torps with nuke warheads will have no concussion effects as there is no atmosphere to transmit the blast. It will either be contact with the shield or hull. In addition to the hard xray and gamma ray effects.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Consider photorp impacts against unshielded targets that we've seen in the movies. In Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan both the Enterprise and the Reliant take direct torpedo hits while completely unshielded and the results are either surface damage against the hull or a blasted out photorp launcher. If megaton or even kiloton yields were being realised, neither ship should have survived. In Star Trek III: The Search For Spock both the E-nil and Commander Kruge's Bird Of Prey take direct torpedo hits while unshielded. The BOP suffers internal damage, minor surface damage, sudden momentum change in reaction to the impact, and the ship takes on a large static electrical charge on the hull, while the E-nil suffers minor surface damage, more serious internal damage which knocks out her engines and firecontrol, and a static electrical charge on the hull.

In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier Kirk calls down a photorp strike on his position in an effort to destroy the False God entity on Sha Ka Ree and the resultant blast is not even kiloton-yield and certainly less than 100 tons of TNT (100 isotons). And in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country the E-A takes one photorp hit after shield failure from Gen. Chang's BOP. The torpedo, from what we see, inflicts mostly kinetic damage on the E-A with the object blasting through the saucer section. Had the warhead detonated, there should have been considerably greater damage to the spaceframe, and had the blast been in the kiloton or megaton range, the E-A should have been reduced to radioactive dust. And finally, there is Generations, in which the E-D takes three photorp hits on her hull fired from the Duras BOP but suffering only three hull breaches in the immediate impact areas.

Why should a nuclear blast destroy both ships? Is it not possible that their ships hulls can survive nuclear blasts intact? Would a SW ship survive a nuclear blast against the hull?

Often, the excuse for these incidents has been the fallback to "low yield" photorps. Except that, never once, in any line of dialogue or in any computer screen display do we ever see or hear of any distincition between high-yield and low-yield warheads, or any order to "switch to low-yield", or any photorp blast which is greater than the ones we have observed in the movies and episodes.

Actually in ST: V you have three things you must consider. First of all and most important is that Kirk is hardly going to order his own destruction, and second he tells Sulu to "listen carefully", and third the Ptorp was a different color.(This seems to indicate a change in strength.)

[/quote]

[The Yosemite Bear]

Purhaps the torpedo arming mechanisms are worse the U.S. fish at the start of WWII.

[Vympel]

Actually in ST: V you have three things you must consider. First of all and most important is that Kirk is hardly going to order his own destruction, and second he tells Sulu to "listen carefully", and third the Ptorp was a different color.(This seems to indicate a change in strength.)

I agree

It's not fair or reasonable to allow Star Wars the luxury of reduced yields in some situations (the lasers of the Slave I in Episode II when Boba shoots them at ObiWan) and not in Star Trek (ST:V is definitely a situation of reduced yield.)

[His Divine Shadow]

Would a SW ship survive a nuclear blast against the hull?

I'd say so yes.

[Darth Wong]

It's not fair or reasonable to allow Star Wars the luxury of reduced yields in some situations (the lasers of the Slave I in Episode II when Boba shoots them at ObiWan) and not in Star Trek (ST:V is definitely a situation of reduced yield.)

Mind you, the situation with Slave-1 is different because we saw Slave-1's guns effortlessly destroying asteroids later in the same film. There is still a "burden of proof" problem to overcome for Trek torps; the higher yield figures must be substantiated through observation.

So far, we haven't seen any. The best the Trekkies can come up with is conjecture, ie- "so and so said that they could do this, so we can reasonably assume that they must be able to ..."

Honestly, from an objective standpoint, that's pretty fucking weak. I allow some of that simply because I try to be generous, but if I wanted to be strict about it, 100% of that type of "evidence" would be disallowed.

The Romulan plasma torp in "Balance of Terror" was pretty powerful (it was also a one-hit one-kill weapon even against a fully shielded ship), since it could fragment a large iron asteroid with only a few hits. But there is no reason to suspect that photorps, which do not drain the entire ship of power or have effortless one-hit one-kill capability against shielded warships, are anywhere near as powerful.

[Guest]

Have we ever seen nuclear explosions resulting from any Star Wars weapons, such as a proton torpedo? Anakin fired a proton torpedo inside a Trade Federation ship. Was there a nuclear explosion? It didn't appear to be a nuclear explosion to me. Does anyone have any screen shots to verify this?

As far as the UFP is concerned, I haven't seen nuclear explosions as a result of a torpedo impact. In fact, I can't remember having ever seen that in any scifi movie or TV show. I have seen nuclear weapons used in scifi, but not as torpedoes.

[Stormbringer]

Have we ever seen nuclear explosions resulting from any Star Wars weapons, such as a proton torpedo? Anakin fired a proton torpedo inside a Trade Federation ship. Was there a nuclear explosion? It didn't appear to be a nuclear explosion to me. Does anyone have any screen shots to verify this?

As far as the UFP is concerned, I haven't seen nuclear explosions as a result of a torpedo impact. In fact, I can't remember having ever seen that in any scifi movie or TV show. I have seen nuclear weapons used in scifi, but not as torpedoes.

A nuclear explosion is more or less the same as any other. A mushroom cloud is not a prerquidite for a nuclear blast. And proton torpedoes are a proton scattering warhead, a directed nuclear weapon.

[Vympel]

It's not fair or reasonable to allow Star Wars the luxury of reduced yields in some situations (the lasers of the Slave I in Episode II when Boba shoots them at ObiWan) and not in Star Trek (ST:V is definitely a situation of reduced yield.)

Mind you, the situation with Slave-1 is different because we saw Slave-1's guns effortlessly destroying asteroids later in the same film. There is still a "burden of proof" problem to overcome for Trek torps; the higher yield figures must be substantiated through observation.

So far, we haven't seen any. The best the Trekkies can come up with is conjecture, ie- "so and so said that they could do this, so we can reasonably assume that they must be able to ..."

Honestly, from an objective standpoint, that's pretty fucking weak. I allow some of that simply because I try to be generous, but if I wanted to be strict about it, 100% of that type of "evidence" would be disallowed.

The Romulan plasma torp in "Balance of Terror" was pretty powerful (it was also a one-hit one-kill weapon even against a fully shielded ship), since it could fragment a large iron asteroid with only a few hits. But there is no reason to suspect that photorps, which do not drain the entire ship of power or have effortless one-hit one-kill capability against shielded warships, are anywhere near as powerful.

True. I only brought up Slave I in Episode II as a scenario because I remember reading an argument where someone was disputing the ICS figures- even though we saw the midships guns blasting asteroids, they wouldn't accept the bottom guns having the power that Slave I so OBVIOUSLY has in its midship guns.

[Darth Wong]

Have we ever seen nuclear explosions resulting from any Star Wars weapons, such as a proton torpedo? Anakin fired a proton torpedo inside a Trade Federation ship. Was there a nuclear explosion? It didn't appear to be a nuclear explosion to me. Does anyone have any screen shots to verify this?

Are you blind or something? Watch the destructive power of Slave-1's missiles in the Geonosis asteroid rings; we are talking about hundreds of megatons here, and that's for a one-man fighter! The fact that obviously low-yield torps (such as the Naboo fighters' torps) exist does not preclude the existence of much higher-yield torps, although the burden of proof is on those who would claim the existence of such torps. Thanks to incidents such as the Geonosis asteroid belt battle in AOTC, we have satisfied that burden of proof. The Trekkies have not.

As far as the UFP is concerned, I haven't seen nuclear explosions as a result of a torpedo impact. In fact, I can't remember having ever seen that in any scifi movie or TV show. I have seen nuclear weapons used in scifi, but not as torpedoes.

You don't need to see a mushroom cloud in space. However, when you see a torp explode against an unshielded ship and not even heat its surface to lumiscence, it certainly doesn't suggest megaton-class yield (and how strong can Federation hulls really be, when a DUD Jem'hadar torpedo breached the Defiant's hull in "Starship Down?).

[Master of Ossus]

Would a SW ship survive a nuclear blast against the hull?

Erm, YES. Have you not read ICS? It specifically states that the Acclamator's hull can withstand thermonuclear blasts, unshielded.

[Doomriser]

[quote="Kamakazie Sith"][quote="Patrick Degan"]
Why should a nuclear blast destroy both ships? Is it not possible that their ships hulls can survive nuclear blasts intact? Would a SW ship survive a nuclear blast against the hull?
[quote]

"Enemy fusion rockets barely score the super-dispersive neutronium-impregnated hull cladding." [Dr. Saxton, Curtis, "Republic Assault Ship" Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections, DK Publishing, New York, 2002, pp.22-23]

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

They probably run on the same NDF reaction phasers do, even if it doesn't make sense.

[Doomriser]

Would a SW ship survive a nuclear blast against the hull?

Erm, YES. Have you not read ICS? It specifically states that the Acclamator's hull can withstand thermonuclear blasts, unshielded.

DAMN! Beat me to it!

BTW in TOS the Ent-nil crew shit themselves when the Romulans blew up a nuke near it, didn't they?

[Alyeska]

I think that a 50 TT thermonuclear blast would cause some damage to an Aclamator.

Its not the weapon that counts, per say. Its the firepower behind the weapon.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Actually in ST: V you have three things you must consider. First of all and most important is that Kirk is hardly going to order his own destruction, and second he tells Sulu to "listen carefully", and third the Ptorp was a different color.(This seems to indicate a change in strength.)

I agree

It's not fair or reasonable to allow Star Wars the luxury of reduced yields in some situations (the lasers of the Slave I in Episode II when Boba shoots them at ObiWan) and not in Star Trek (ST:V is definitely a situation of reduced yield.)

Except the ones Boba shoots at Obi Wan on Kaimino were different than than the ones he used in the Asteroid field. The Laser cannons used are higher up. The ICS confirms this and are correct on the Yields. Here's a pic:

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Have we ever seen nuclear explosions resulting from any Star Wars weapons, such as a proton torpedo? Anakin fired a proton torpedo inside a Trade Federation ship. Was there a nuclear explosion? It didn't appear to be a nuclear explosion to me. Does anyone have any screen shots to verify this?

Are you blind or something? Watch the destructive power of Slave-1's missiles in the Geonosis asteroid rings; we are talking about hundreds of megatons here, and that's for a one-man fighter! The fact that obviously low-yield torps (such as the Naboo fighters' torps) exist does not preclude the existence of much higher-yield torps, although the burden of proof is on those who would claim the existence of such torps. Thanks to incidents such as the Geonosis asteroid belt battle in AOTC, we have satisfied that burden of proof. The Trekkies have not.

As far as the UFP is concerned, I haven't seen nuclear explosions as a result of a torpedo impact. In fact, I can't remember having ever seen that in any scifi movie or TV show. I have seen nuclear weapons used in scifi, but not as torpedoes.

You don't need to see a mushroom cloud in space. However, when you see a torp explode against an unshielded ship and not even heat its surface to lumiscence, it certainly doesn't suggest megaton-class yield (and how strong can Federation hulls really be, when a DUD Jem'hadar torpedo breached the Defiant's hull in "Starship Down?).

Well Naboo fighters may not necessarily hav Low Yield proton torps. Remember in TPM when we see a Naboo Fighter fireing a proton torp at the TF ship. Both the Fighter and it's wingman were engulfed by the Blast.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm confused, Vympel, are you trying to say that the lower yields on the Slave 1 disproves the 200GT weapons on Acclamators? There are obviously going to be differences in scale. Some weapons are always going to be more powerful than others. How is it not fair to assume that weapons used in ST combat are full yield for those weapons? The Slave-1 quite obviously is nowhere near the most powerful ship in the Galaxy, but it also has some weapons that would be considered extremely powerful if ever it was in the ST universe. Slave-1's light weapons, designed for engaging poorly armored but nimble fighters were full-yield at the time that they were firing at Obi-Wans fighter. Their firepower is obviously not very great. However that does not disprove the seismic charges that Jango used in the same movie. There is no contradiction here, and it IS fair to assume maximum yields for particular weapons during combat.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

I took some screen shots from my ST: First Contact DVD, these show the Borg attempting to destroy (thats means they don't want to disable, cripple, annoy or otherwise nudge it, they want it GONE) a shanty town with torpedos with interesting results:

Before:


After:


KAPOW! an explosion is seen approximately equivalent to a modern 155mm incendiary artillery round. No "multi megaton" explosion here...

Before:


After:


Here we see 2 of the main characters standing at most 20m from the bar the torpedo hits, as anyone who has seen the film knows both characters survive despite being mere meters from a "multi megaton" explosion...

Before:


After:


Here's another beauty, a "multi megaton" torpedo hits a rickety metal hutt and leaves a good portion of it intact, more like what you would expect from a modern mortar.



Here's my favorite however, it's hard to see this normaly but I've made composite image of 2 frames so you can see the entire hole. Theres nothing to say really, just look at that raw power.

[Master of Ossus]

Clearly the Borg firepower is not as high as some people claim it to be. Had the Borg really been trying to destroy the area, and had the ability to do so, they would have utterly demolished the town and its surroundings. Even modern nuclear weapons would have done VASTLY more damage to the area.

[Alyeska]

Is there anything stating those were Borg Torpedoes? The rate of fire and their reaction on the ground seemed to be nothing more then pulses, weak ones at that.

[Master of Ossus]

They look exactly like Borg torpedoes, to my knowledge we have never seen the Borg fire pulses of weapons fire except for torpedoes, and if you look closely at the top screen-shot, you can see that it is leaving a trail that appears to be chemical in the form of gas, consistent with missile fire.