TL Flak bursts

[Vympel]

Ok one thing I'm confused about- where is the evidence that turbolasers can flak-burst?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering how we differentiate between a shield impact and a flak burst?

[Mr Bean]

WEG goes into detail about it, and I belive its used in NJO plus we see it in ROTJ

The basic easy was is shield impact equals *Half a mushroom cloud

IE when a TL strikes a shield some is reflected back by the shield while the rest is abosred meaing that there is a flash back IE half a mushroom cloud because the other half is being delt with by the shield

A flack burst is a Sphereical or Cone shaped expolision like those witness in ROTJ from the Emperor's Thrown Room whereby all the energy is expanded in a omni or near omni directional way

[Connor MacLeod]

WEG goes into detail about it, and I belive its used in NJO plus we see it in ROTJ

1.) I've never heard of WEG using it. Which source(s) are you referring to?

2.) To my Knowledge not in the NJO. They use splinter shots (rapid fire barrage of low-powered bolts) and "proximity" protorp detonations, but there have been no real "flak bursts" in the EU as I am aware of.

3.) where in ROTJ? I recall seeing explosions in seemingly empty space, but I dont recall this neccesarily being flak bursts.

There have been a few mentions of "flak usage" in the EU, and at least one or two canon mentions (the TESB novelization mentions it, I believe the ROTJ and ANH ones do too..), but it enver refers specifically to the flak being from blasters/lasers/turbolasers.

The basic easy was is shield impact equals *Half a mushroom cloud


IE when a TL strikes a shield some is reflected back by the shield while the rest is abosred meaing that there is a flash back IE half a mushroom cloud because the other half is being delt with by the shield



A flack burst is a Sphereical or Cone shaped expolision like those witness in ROTJ from the Emperor's Thrown Room whereby all the energy is expanded in a omni or near omni directional way

Saxton has speculated that virtually all the "flak bursts" that are supposed to exist are really shield/beam interactions. Which certainly has merit (Because there are specific examples - ie Geonosis - where TL flak bursting would have been TREMENDOUSLY useful.)

it should be noted that if these flak bursts do exist, it does not neccesarily follow that they are created by TLs/lasers/blasters. The ANH novelization and radio drama mentions SEVERAL weapons the Death STar uses (explosiev solids, missiles, electrical bolts, and at least two kinds of damaging energy weapon) that we do not explicitly see in the movie (or maybe we do, and they look alot like blaster bolts - ie ion cannons. Missiels and torpedoes have a blaster-like appearance as well.)

[Mr Bean]

where in ROTJ? I recall seeing explosions in seemingly empty space, but I dont recall this neccesarily being flak bursts.

Those ARE flack bursts and what they look like when used, After all your turning the TL into focus descrution into unfocused descrution, IE an explosion which is near or at omni-directional

[Connor MacLeod]

where in ROTJ? I recall seeing explosions in seemingly empty space, but I dont recall this neccesarily being flak bursts.

Those ARE flack bursts and what they look like when used, After all your turning the TL into focus descrution into unfocused descrution, IE an explosion which is near or at omni-directional

Which I dont think is possible with what is essentially a massless beam weapon. If anything is causing the flak, it must be a different weapon, not a TL or laser cannon.

[omegaLancer]

A massless beam of light can explosed like a flak.. If the beam was form into a soliton like packet ( light bullet) http://www.sfu.ca/~renns/lbullets.html

.. While light bullet are not true soliton, a degenerative waveform can be added that cause the whole packet to explode..

Check out this form the light bullet home page: http://www.sfu.ca/~renns/images/halo7.html

I not saying a TL is a light bullet, but An advance culture like SW should be able to create a energy structures that behave like soliton..

[WhiteStarPrime]

So they could tear a fighter attack apart then.

[Mr Bean]

So they could tear a fighter attack apart then.

Comple Vaporisaztion acutal

See ROTJ? The part of the battle we see from the Thrown room are most likley Flack bursts rather than HTLs hitting shields given the fact that many of the expolisions are in emtpy space also they appear to be near or completely spherical, A charatistic of a Flack bursts


Flack bursts manly are to counter Fighter Torp runs on Cap ships or the torps themselves, See Fighters are only dangorous if they mantain formation and pump out enough at the same time and at the same place...

Thusly having an 50-500 Meter sphere of complete annilation pop up in the middle of a Fighter formation would be a good thing

[AL]

Pg. 156: Soon a web of annihilation began to envelop the station as energy weapons, electrical bolts, and explosive solids ripped out at the oncoming rebel craft.

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

Pg. 162: They reacted speedily, and soon energy bolts were racing at the attacking ships in a steadily increasing volume. Occasionally one would explode near one of the onrushing Y-wings, jostling it without real damage.

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

Pg. 162: They reacted speedily, and soon energy bolts were racing at the attacking ships in a steadily increasing volume. Occasionally one would explode near one of the onrushing Y-wings, jostling it without real damage.

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

perhaps flak is just what this third quote is. A TL exploding next to a starfighter or another ship, but soes that imply that tl have some sort of proximity targeting system?

[Master of Ossus]

The flak burst can be seen pretty clearly outside the cockpit of the Falcon in RotJ. After Lando comments that "Only the fighters are attacking," there are two explosions outside the window. Nothing travels into those. My guess is that those are the results of invisible portion turbolaser blasts that have exploded harmlessly. There is clearly nothing going on. In addition, they can be seen in AotC and TPM, during the space battle in TPM, we see numerous explosions a few meters from Anakin's N-1. During AotC, we see various explosions near LAAT's. Those are flak bursts.

[WhiteStarPrime]

I wonder how you get past it ?

[Master of Ossus]

I wonder how you get past it ?

Past what? What is this in reference to?

[WhiteStarPrime]

I wonder how you get past it ?

Past what? What is this in reference to?

The flak screen.

[Slartibartfast]

The flak burst can be seen pretty clearly outside the cockpit of the Falcon in RotJ.

Those would look a lot better if they didn't stick to the Falcon's windshield...

[Connor MacLeod]

So...we see an explosion...and therefore it must be a flak burst?? thats it?

[Mr Bean]

So...we see an explosion...and therefore it must be a flak burst?? thats it?

Size and placement, The TL is made unstable so it explodes after a certian travel time and release its energy, Most of the energy seems to flow in the *invisble section of TLs, Then we see large expolsions for no good reason in the middle of no where, yet we know there are ships out there capable of Flack bursting

Thefore it must be Flack

Sort of like if Ossus where to walk into a room full of a green gas, drop dead after taking a deep breath, we could likley conculded it had somthing to do with the Gas when we see it seep into the Corridor and another person die, Rather than say Radition, or the Boogieman in the closet, prehaps that gas is deadly

[Slartibartfast]

-We see turbolaser blasts explode for apparently no reason after not hitting something.
-We see nearby starfighters rocking at the same time.

I think this is also shown during the ISD vs Millenium Falcon chase in TESB...
Why would the Millenium Falcon rock so much? It's not being hit by every single turbolaser shot is it? Either it's fighter fire (but there aren't always fighters chasing it), flak, or its shields are a lot stronger than we thought.

[Connor MacLeod]

Size and placement, The TL is made unstable so it explodes after a certian travel time and release its energy.

And we base this assumption on what fact?

Most of the energy seems to flow in the *invisble section of TLs, Then we see large expolsions for no good reason in the middle of no where, yet we know there are ships out there capable of Flack bursting

Um, what? We know the damaging part is invisible, but:

- the fact we see explosions alone does not prove the fact that they are flak bursts, visible or invisible bolt.

- even if we ASSUME it is a flak burst, this does not mean that said burst is generated by a TL or laser bolt.

This is not proof. This is at best educated guessing based on an interpretation of visuals. This is the exact same logic that the anti-ICS crowd uses to bolster their own denunciations:

"We don't see multi-GT range explosions so TLs cannot be that powerful!"

or

"We see TL bolts moving at sublight speeds and they clearly are not lightspeed weapons."

Visuals, unless they are tremendously straightforward (like the DS blowing up Alderaan) are open to interpretation. Just because something may look apparent to ONE person does not make that thing true. In the case of the so called "flak burst" an explosion in the middle of space is not proof enough to make such a conclusion over all other potential conclusions (space debris, other weapons effects, etc.)

Thefore it must be Flack

So where's the proof it MUST be flak?

Sort of like if Ossus where to walk into a room full of a green gas, drop dead after taking a deep breath, we could likley conculded it had somthing to do with the Gas when we see it seep into the Corridor and another person die, Rather than say Radition, or the Boogieman in the closet, prehaps that gas is deadly

Perhaps, but thats not the same thing. You're assuming that because you see explosions where there are no visible objects nearby to detonate, that the explosion is due to a TL bolt exploding in a flak-like proximity effect. It is not nearly so "obvious" a conclusion as you try to make it out to be.

[Connor MacLeod]

Note that there are TWO definitions for flak:

http://www.britannica.com/dictionary?bo ... ry&va=flak

Main Entry: flak
Pronunciation: 'flak
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural flak
Etymology: German, from Fliegerabwehrkanonen, from Flieger flyer + Abwehr defense + Kanonen cannons
Date: 1938
1 : antiaircraft guns
2 : the bursting shells fired from flak

Just because a novel MENTIONS flak being fired (IE TESB, ROTJ) does not mean that it is "exploding bolts" - it couldbe referring to point defense. Like with assuming that an explosion = flak, one interpretation is not guaranteed over others without further proof.

likewise, this assumes that the weapon in question is CAPABLE of doing so.
There are some real problems in assuming that a bolt could just spontaneously "Detonate" at a predetermined range, particularily when following the "massless" definition of energy weapons.

Observed effects tend to only minimally support the notion, usage of such tactics when useful (IE against ground troops at Geonosis, Hoth, Endor) is nonexistant, and additionally, virtually all the EU I am aware of have never mentioned the employment of TLs in this fashion.

[Guest]

Hey, don't you guys shun WEG as a source?

[Spartan]

Mr. Bean could you post the WEG quote?

[Mr Bean]

I can sum up your post in one sentance

So where's the proof it MUST be flak?

Best Fit for the Evidance, Random Expolisions in the middle of no-where that ACT like the aformented TL Flack Burts, Now remeber part of science is disproving and providing a better theory
I say they are Flack bursts, they act like Flack bursts(And you agree on that much right? They act like Flack bursts are described)

If you don't have another theory we have to accept this one until such time as you can come up with a competing idea

Do you purpose that they are super giant invisible space hamster farts?


Sure they COULD not be Flack bursts, But then what could they be?
Remeber its not enough to discredit your oppenit in science if you don't have some idea what it or they should be

[Connor MacLeod]

Best Fit for the Evidance,

Oh right. An energy bolt that mysteriously stops moving forward and explodes like a bomb is the "best fit" for evidence. Are TL's somehow inherently sentient? What mechanism would decelerate the bolt to zero, then cause this so called "flak burst" detonation to spread outwards?

And why would this be practical at all as opposed to more numerous/lesser powered shots (IE splinter shots) or a more concentrated, highly powerful bolt?

Sounds more like "best fit for your interpretation" than anything.

Random Expolisions in the middle of no-where that ACT like the aformented TL Flack Burts,

1.) You're assuming the Flak bursts actually exist.

2.) Random explosions do not prove the existance of TL flak bursts.

Now remeber part of science is disproving and providing a better theory
I say they are Flack bursts, they act like Flack bursts(And you agree on that much right? They act like Flack bursts are described)

No, I don't, and with very good reason.. Saxton has proposed that the "explosions" as you call them are the result of shield/bolt interactions. After reviewing the evidence, I've been inclined to agree with this (And he's even *MORE* anti-flak burst than I am.) The physics behind such a bolt are problematic, and the visuals do not neccesarily prove their existance (as SAxton has demonstrated a counter theory)

Even if we assume these flak bursts exist, this does not mean they are generated by turbolasers, lasers, or blaster weapons. As I already mentioned, the mechanics of such a bolt are questionable, and there are other ways to achieve the effect. They act like explosions, and there are lots of ways an explosion can be created. This does not prove the existence of TL flak bursts just because you think it does.

If you don't have another theory we have to accept this one until such time as you can come up with a competing idea

A physical projectile wrapped in an energy sheath that explodes. THAT is imminently more plausible if a silly "flak burst" weapon is needed. We already know such examples exist (proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, bowcaster quarrels, etc.) Its more feasible for a physical projectile to "flak burst" than it is for an energy beam.

Do you purpose that they are super giant invisible space hamster farts?

Cute. Just because someone disagrees with your "flak burst" theory, that automatically means any OTHER theory has to be insane?

Sure they COULD not be Flack bursts, But then what could they be?
Remeber its not enough to discredit your oppenit in science if you don't have some idea what it or they should be

I like how you repeat this. I've presented two potential theories, and I'll add another:

1.) Physical projectiles wrapped in an energy sheath (bowcaster shells, Proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, etc.) Which perhaps can be set to "flak burst" as you claim.

If nto a physical projectile, other weapons may suit.

2.) The visible effect of shield/bolt interactions (Saxton's theory)

3.) debris exploding/vaporizing, or ships exploding in the distance (being too distant to see.)

Not that the "flak burst" theory really had merit to begin with (if you think "visuals" aloen will prove it, I'll introduce you to some people who argue that TLs cannot move at c because the visible component doesn't), but I'm just humoring you.

[omegaLancer]

Hmmm it not hard to see how the burst occur, A light bullet ( a soliton like wave packet of electromagnetic energy ) can be set to explode.. I post the link to the light bullet web sight several times, so I will not bother to do so again.. Noise introduce to the light bullet make it unstable and when it decays it breaks in to a barrage smaller light bullet that that burst in a spherical pattern...

As for prove of flak his a bunch:

A New Hope Novellization
Pg. 162 : "Blue Leader, this is Red Leader," he announced into his mike. "We're starting our attack run. The exhaust port is located and marked. No flak, no enemy fighters up here-yet. Looks like we'll get at least one smooth run at it."

The Empire Strikes Back Novellization
Pg. 231 : The ship was beginning to lurch with the buffeting flak blasted at it by the fighters

Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back Novellization
Pg. 217-218 : Angrily, Luke fired his ship's guns at a walker, only to receive a hail of Imperial fire power that shook his speeder in a barrage of flak.

in each case the flak is from laser/Turbolaser fire..

Currentily there are attempts by the Miltary,to create free standing soliton of laser light , to increase the effective range of these devices as weapons and targeting..

Currentily Solitons and light bullets of laser light can be made in gas medium and fiber optic cables, but presentily there are experiment to use special optical cavities to shape laser output into soliton without either the gas or cables.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hmmm it not hard to see how the burst occur, A light bullet ( a soliton like wave packet of electromagnetic energy ) can be set to explode.. I post the link to the light bullet web sight several times, so I will not bother to do so again..

You do realize that these "light bullets" refer to light passing through a certain kind of medium, do you not? They in fact say that in the first paragraph: "The following Web pages discusses our research into the beautiful phenomena of "light bullets," intense stable spherical pulses of laser light travelling through certain bulk glass and gaseous media."

and later under the heading "light bullets"

"We have performed numerical simulations of a nonlinear partial differential equation which models the propagation of picosecond duration light pulses travelling in a bulk dispersive medium possessing an intensity-dependent refractive index. "

These so called bullets only display this behaviour when passing through the stated "medium".

Noise introduce to the light bullet make it unstable and when it decays it breaks in to a barrage smaller light bullet that that burst in a spherical pattern...

And where does it describe this? I see some mention of light bullets going unstable, but that doesn't mean ti explodes!

A New Hope Novellization
Pg. 162 : "Blue Leader, this is Red Leader," he announced into his mike. "We're starting our attack run. The exhaust port is located and marked. No flak, no enemy fighters up here-yet. Looks like we'll get at least one smooth run at it."

There are at least two definitions for "flak" I posted, go look them up. Also, it doesn't specify how said flak is generated. The DS was firing several different kinds of weapons at the REbel fighters according to the novelization, including "explosive solids."

The Empire Strikes Back Novellization
Pg. 231 : The ship was beginning to lurch with the buffeting flak blasted at it by the fighters

Again, look up the definition of "flak" - and prove that it was energy bolts exploding rather than say, a physical projectile sheathed in energy.

Star Wars V: The Empire Strikes Back Novellization
Pg. 217-218 : Angrily, Luke fired his ship's guns at a walker, only to receive a hail of Imperial fire power that shook his speeder in a barrage of flak.

Read above. Flak does not neccesarily mean a spherical explosion or that the bolt in question is exploding like a bomb.

in each case the flak is from laser/Turbolaser fire..

Proof? It never states what the flak is from in the novelization.

Currentily there are attempts by the Miltary,to create free standing soliton of laser light , to increase the effective range of these devices as weapons and targeting..

Proof?

Currentily Solitons and light bullets of laser light can be made in gas medium and fiber optic cables, but presentily there are experiment to use special optical cavities to shape laser output into soliton without either the gas or cables.

Assumptive. As I stated before, the phenomenon appears to occur within a certain "medium" - ie gas or fiber optics cables. Do you have proof that these "light bullets" can appear/occur outside of said medium? If so, post it.