The Domination vs Mordor

[Stormbringer]

And the taken were wiped out themselves. Only Soulcatcher, Limper, Shifter, Stormbriner, Howler, and Whisper suvived. Six of thirteen is not that impressive.

Lady wanted them dead; besides, in the middle of Shadow Games, it's hinted that the others may not have died, either. The last two books might have mentioned that; no spoiler's from Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live, though.

It's pretty clear that the rest did indeed die. The Lady knew all those survived. Yet she knew of no more alive.

But it didn't kill them. The biggest loss was their weapons. Without the they couldn't have done much, especially against elves.

Then the Taken merely have to disarm them.

Not really, they can do damage with out them. It's just with no weapons, they could not effectively defend themselves agains the elbish weapons made to kill them.

It's something that Sauron could survive easily because he doesn't need anchor like the Dominator. He wandered around incorporeally many times, after fightign Haun, after Numenore, and after the Last Alliance.

But that's the whole point - so could the Dominator. Sauron can't move around if he's locked inside the spike.

The Dominator is a man. Powerful but still only human. Sauron is a true demi god or god in the non-omnipotent greeco-roman sense. The dominator is a man, his soul is bound to his body. Sauron is a spirit capable of creating a body. There is a big difference.

He didn't annhilate them, he trashed them good. Set fires and stuff like that. But it's not that impressive.

And Exile is a meduim weight compared to the powers he fought. And bomanz was dying and wasn't as powerful as he was made out to be.

It is impressive; especially when you take into account that fact he was made out of wicker at the time.

It is impressive. And he was at more or less full power, I'll conede that. But still far from decisive. Especially if Sauron can fracture the Taken by promising them Rings of Power.

They never ever once employed a dragon or ghost or ghoul. They sometimes used illusions of them to cause terror but never once did they actually have them.

A dragon defended the Barrowland; plus, the Dominator has command of those creatures that defended the black castle in Juniper.

But the Dragon was not under the Dominator's command. In fact had it not been slain by the time he awoke it would have been compelled to kill him.

And I forgot about those guys. Those might be the Knights of Somethingorother that he was interred with. They'd be awake too and after sitting under the Earth for a few centuries they'd be awfully putrid.

Except they can't. The Limper needed to have his body replaced and magics setup before he could return to action. And Soulcatcher didn't do much more than direct the crows while she was headless.

I thought that the biggest need for a body was so that Limper could move around; and Soulcatcher *never* did anything reall flashy; more likely, she was just tracking Croaker while headless.

No, He had to have Toadkiller Dog dig him out and force the shamans to work for him. He clearly couldn't do much himself.

Yeah, and sauron stabs the first guy to even try it. And they can try to boil him like they did but his soul doesn't need the kind of anchor the Dominator does. He's a demi-god not a mere mortal.

It'll still be locked in the spike; the Dominator was essentially a demi-god too; which is why they needed both the spike and the scion of Old Father Tree.

See my point on the other subject. And the had the baby God Tree watch him because his spirit was still in there. Not to hold him in. It corrupted people much like the Ring did.

Quite, likely. However that is the movie. Still it's a pretty accurate assesment of his power. And the Taken aren't immune to bodily damage. And even the Dominator was ripped up badly by a windwhale.

They aren't immune, but they're pretty damn tough. The Dominator was only ripped up by the windwhale in a null magic zone, and when he was out of it for a half-second he easily killed he windwhale; even in the null zone he killed upwards of a dozen men with his *bare hands* before being restrained.

True, but he can be harmed physically. The Limper was stabbed, shot , decapitated and burned. Catcher was likewise decapitated. Several of the Taken were burned alive. They are tough but can be killed and injured.

Rohan's entrance in the battle achieved so much because it was completely undetected. They were supposed to still pinnned down in Helm's Deep. They had driven the Mordrorian Horde back but they were themselves in danger of being crushed when Aragorn and his forces arrived. Combined with the fall of the Witch King, the morale crumbled.

The Lady could easily hold the Nightstalker Brigade in reserve and use it to the exact same effect.

Not really, they still couldn't kill the Witch-King. And they are only a brigade not an army. They be overwhelmed easily and slaughtered.

The Lady's army is pathetically small and even the Domination didn't have much larger armies. They'd all told be ab out the size of the national armies of Middle Earth. And mostly poorly trained conscripts rather than toughen proffessional soldiers. Training and discpline will make a big difference.

And Helm's Deep faced probably a tenth of the troops that went after Minas Tirirth. And they were poorly trained, Orcs and Goblin-men rather than Uruk-hai, and no real leadership. And Helm's Deep was much more defensible position than Minas Tirith.

And Charm is nearly impenetrable; Sauron can throw all the orcs he wants at it, he is *not* getting inside the walls.

It's tough but less so than Minas Arnor, Mina Isil, Osigilath or any of the Northern Fortress. He, or his minions, took all of them. And besides a seige would be just as effective. They'll starve eventually.

And the Witch King was killed by magic specifically designed to kill him. The knife Meriadoc used was designed to kill him by it's makers; it was some of the most powerful magic used. After all, it had to break the hold of one of the great rings. The chances of the Taken creating something like that in the midst of battle is very very unlikey.

Maybe not in one battle. But One-Eye, a half-ass sorcerer thirty orders of magnitude weaker than the Taken was able to design a spear that would specifically rip apart Shadowmasters. It's possible that the Taken coulddesign the same thing for use against the Ringwraiths.

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Thirty orders of magnitude is a bit of an exageration. And he wasn't half ass One-Eye was fairly weak but was very very knowledgeable. And it wasn't that effective, it wasn't a instant kill. And the Shadowmaster is more vulnerable that a Nazgul. And it also took him a long long time to make it as powerful as he did. Plus he did know what sort of wards the Taken use, they don't have such inside knowledge on the Nazgul.

[Stormbringer]

And the taken were wiped out themselves. Only Soulcatcher, Limper, Shifter, Stormbriner, Howler, and Whisper suvived. Six of thirteen is not that impressive.

Lady wanted them dead; besides, in the middle of Shadow Games, it's hinted that the others may not have died, either. The last two books might have mentioned that; no spoiler's from Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live, though.

It's pretty clear that the rest did indeed die. The Lady knew all those survived. Yet she knew of no more alive.

Those that were hinted to be alive were Shifter, Howler, Catcher and Stormbringer. They did show up but the rest were indeed dead.

[HemlockGrey]

It's pretty clear that the rest did indeed die. The Lady knew all those survived. Yet she knew of no more alive.

But it was made fairly clear that even she wondered if they had gone to other parts of the world, to build up their own empires.

Not really, they can do damage with out them. It's just with no weapons, they could not effectively defend themselves agains the elbish weapons made to kill them.

The the Taken hurl magick at them, designed to kill them.

The Dominator is a man. Powerful but still only human. Sauron is a true demi god or god in the non-omnipotent greeco-roman sense. The dominator is a man, his soul is bound to his body. Sauron is a spirit capable of creating a body. There is a big difference.

But it doesn't matter, since they can *still* lock his spirit in the spike.

It is impressive. And he was at more or less full power, I'll conede that. But still far from decisive. Especially if Sauron can fracture the Taken by promising them Rings of Power.

Unlikely. The Taken are utterly bound to the Dominator's will.

But the Dragon was not under the Dominator's command. In fact had it not been slain by the time he awoke it would have been compelled to kill him.

And I forgot about those guys. Those might be the Knights of Somethingorother that he was interred with. They'd be awake too and after sitting under the Earth for a few centuries they'd be awfully putrid.

The dragon was under the command of the originial White Rose, and it is likely that the Dominator could command dragons of his own. The creatures, by the way, would not be putrid, as this is the Domination at it's height, before the White Rose rebelled.

No, He had to have Toadkiller Dog dig him out and force the shamans to work for him. He clearly couldn't do much himself.

Conceeded.

True, but he can be harmed physically. The Limper was stabbed, shot , decapitated and burned. Catcher was likewise decapitated. Several of the Taken were burned alive. They are tough but can be killed and injured.

In the Books of the South Lady repeats, several times, that the only sure way to kill a Taken would be to burn them, grind the ashes, and scatter the ashes. I'd like to point out that the Limper survived everything you mentioned, and only died after being pressure cooked for a week.

Not really, they still couldn't kill the Witch-King. And they are only a brigade not an army. They be overwhelmed easily and slaughtered.

The Lady's army is pathetically small and even the Domination didn't have much larger armies. They'd all told be ab out the size of the national armies of Middle Earth. And mostly poorly trained conscripts rather than toughen proffessional soldiers. Training and discpline will make a big difference.

Are you joking? The Domination had massive armies, and the Nightstalker Bridage was second only to the Black Company, which was widely acknowledged as the best fighting force in the world. The Nightstalkers only need to spearhead a surprise assault, led by some minor spellcasters, and the orcs will be shredded.

It's tough but less so than Minas Arnor, Mina Isil, Osigilath or any of the Northern Fortress. He, or his minions, took all of them. And besides a seige would be just as effective. They'll starve eventually.

It is an impregnable fortress; once the gates are closed, there is no way Sauron can get in, and in addition to the incredibly vast reserves the Taken can simply shuttle food in.

[Stormbringer]

It's pretty clear that the rest did indeed die. The Lady knew all those survived. Yet she knew of no more alive.

But it was made fairly clear that even she wondered if they had gone to other parts of the world, to build up their own empires.

Perhaps but she knew about those that showed up. And the rest never did. So it's an open question. But as like as not they're dead and in the ground rotting.

Not really, they can do damage with out them. It's just with no weapons, they could not effectively defend themselves agains the elbish weapons made to kill them.

The the Taken hurl magick at them, designed to kill them.

But could they come up with the require magic? The Nazgul are like nothing they've faced before. Who says they'll be able to whip uup something on the spot.

The Dominator is a man. Powerful but still only human. Sauron is a true demi god or god in the non-omnipotent greeco-roman sense. The dominator is a man, his soul is bound to his body. Sauron is a spirit capable of creating a body. There is a big difference.

But it doesn't matter, since they can *still* lock his spirit in the spike.

No, they can't. Sauron's spirit doesn't have to anchor it self to a body. The Dominator's does. That's the difference.

It is impressive. And he was at more or less full power, I'll conede that. But still far from decisive. Especially if Sauron can fracture the Taken by promising them Rings of Power.

Unlikely. The Taken are utterly bound to the Dominator's will.

No they weren't. The whole Books of the North could not have taken place if they were. The male Taken sided with Lady, the female the Dominator.

But the Dragon was not under the Dominator's command. In fact had it not been slain by the time he awoke it would have been compelled to kill him.

And I forgot about those guys. Those might be the Knights of Somethingorother that he was interred with. They'd be awake too and after sitting under the Earth for a few centuries they'd be awfully putrid.

The dragon was under the command of the originial White Rose, and it is likely that the Dominator could command dragons of his own. The creatures, by the way, would not be putrid, as this is the Domination at it's height, before the White Rose rebelled.

There is no evidence that the Dominator had dragons serving in his forces. And the fact that there were no dragons among the fallen in the Barrowlands is pretty good evidence that he never had any.

And so what, he has some more knights. They were only humans when they first entered his service. They were a people he first ruled and used the knights as his personal bodyguard and enforcers.

No, He had to have Toadkiller Dog dig him out and force the shamans to work for him. He clearly couldn't do much himself.

Conceeded.

Thank you.

True, but he can be harmed physically. The Limper was stabbed, shot , decapitated and burned. Catcher was likewise decapitated. Several of the Taken were burned alive. They are tough but can be killed and injured.

In the Books of the South Lady repeats, several times, that the only sure way to kill a Taken would be to burn them, grind the ashes, and scatter the ashes. I'd like to point out that the Limper survived everything you mentioned, and only died after being pressure cooked for a week.

But you can bust up the Taken and then burn the bits. It's a sound tactic.

Not really, they still couldn't kill the Witch-King. And they are only a brigade not an army. They be overwhelmed easily and slaughtered.

The Lady's army is pathetically small and even the Domination didn't have much larger armies. They'd all told be ab out the size of the national armies of Middle Earth. And mostly poorly trained conscripts rather than toughen proffessional soldiers. Training and discpline will make a big difference.

Are you joking? The Domination had massive armies, and the Nightstalker Bridage was second only to the Black Company, which was widely acknowledged as the best fighting force in the world. The Nightstalkers only need to spearhead a surprise assault, led by some minor spellcasters, and the orcs will be shredded.

The battle for Charm was supposed to be one of the largst since the Domination. And it only had about three quarters of million. Against enough orc, trolls, and men to blacken the land as far as the eye can see, that's pitiful.

The Nightstalker are tough but not numerous, they'll be dragged down quickly and killed. The Black Company at that time only number a few thousand, the Night Stalkers are likely no bigger. Sheer numbers will take them down. And Orcs don'tr crack easily. They were pushed back but were taking down the Riders of Rohan when the Witch-King went down. That's the only reason the assualt failed.

It's tough but less so than Minas Arnor, Mina Isil, Osigilath or any of the Northern Fortress. He, or his minions, took all of them. And besides a seige would be just as effective. They'll starve eventually.

It is an impregnable fortress; once the gates are closed, there is no way Sauron can get in, and in addition to the incredibly vast reserves the Taken can simply shuttle food in.

No fortress is inpregnable. It was impressive and heavily warded but it could be damaged. And if the Taken try flying in food, they'll have to deal with the Nazgul in the air. Given the fragility and sluggishness of the biggest carpets that a really really bad idea and wouldn't work.