Islam - the Tip Toe Factor

[Stravo]

Ok this could easily be in SLAM. I'll move it if others agree.

Islam is currently in the grips of a movement of fundamentalism that is born within the Madrasas, the religious schools that are fundamentalist factories for the movement.

Moderate Ismalic leaders are all but silent, afraid of provoking this growing movement, which is very attarctive to poor and illiterate folks. The majority of the Middle East is composed of these poor and angry young men (women in the Fundametalist world are most definately a second class citizen)

This movement has already painted Islam with a broad brush stroke in the eyes of the west yet nothing is being done by the moderates. Instead, what they do is squeal loudly should any HINT of profiling (All 9/11 Hijackers were young Arabic muslims. 19 of the 22 were Saudi Arabians and all could be described as fundamentalists) rise. They are quick to scream prejudice and religious intolerance yet they do nothing publically to confront the movement that makes people fear them.

The West, in typical Western fashion seems paralyzed with this need to accept Islam and try not to be prejudicial yet the harsh reality of these fundies and the fact that they HATE us puts the West between a rock and a hard place.

Is it right for the West to have to tip toe around Islamic culture? Should we try to ignore this growing movement that despises us or should we say "Hey, you have to start cleaning house. You have to deal with this in your own midsts or we will have to do it for you."

The last two meetings of Islamic groups have led to such wonderful statements such as "Jews control the world." So what does the future hold, must we continue to tip toe around the muslims and hope we do not offend them as we try to defend ourselves from the growing fundy threat?

PLEASE try to be constructive and no coming in here to label muslims as evil or viscious or killers. Nor do I want to hear about the evils of the Bush administration, etc. We are looking at Islam, its refusal to look inward and our need to tipt toe around them.

[MKSheppard]

Pretty much what I've been saying, although much less black/white and
with more tones of Grey.

I am annoyed how we in the west have to bend over for Islam, to avoid
offending them, but they won't even clean up their own act in return.

I hate having to go all the way for them, without them having even the
common courtest to meet us halfway

[MKSheppard]

I do tend to go all out for Black and White Imagery, painted in special
high visibility black paint visibile from orbit; and this is the crux of the
thing; the supposed moderates in Islam, they won't do a damn thing
for fear of offending the fundies so much that they end up dying
messily, and instead have us, the West, come in and clean house for
them, and of course, we end up hated by everyone for doing what
needs to be done.

[Stormbringer]

I agree. Between the overzealous tolerance of the left and the religious sacred cow-ism of the right neither side will admit the core problem: fundamentalist Islam is dangerous and prevelant.

It's in the majority in most islamic nations and the moderates are unwilling to take any action to stop it. While only a handful are actually terrorists a lot have the same intolerant mentality and carry out the barbaric islamic law in their countries. Stonings, old fashioned sword chop beheadings, torture and more are common in the worst nations. Does anyone want to argue that places like Taliban Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia aren't horrid human rights abusers of basic human rights? Intolerance and anti-semitism are rampant in the Muslim world.

And if the horrors they inflict on themselves aren't enough that's a perfect breeding ground for terrorists. Radical Islam is the driving force behind some of the worst terrorists groups and on going conflicts out there.


We need to stop pretending things are alright. They're not. So much of the Islamic world is backsliding into a Dark Ages mentality and it needs to stop. We need to stop tiptoeing around the issue and put serious pressure on Islam to clean up it's act. They need to know that terrorism and abusive religion have no place in a civilized world. Islam doesn't have to be this way but we need to stop pretending that radical islam is okay.

Instead too many people make excuses, waffle and double talk for fear of offending Muslims.

[MKSheppard]

51 views and only 3 replies? Come on People, stop tip toeing around.

[Darth Wong]

Rather smug, aren't we?

Here's a hint: try replacing "Muslim" with "black" in your arguments. Interestingly enough, you can drop it in without altering another word. Then perhaps you'll see the problem (or perhaps you won't, at least not in Shep's case).

I am no fan of religion; I don't think I need to prove that to anyone. However, Christians throw stones from a glass house when they argue that Islam is intrinsically violent. There are many social movements within predominantly Muslim countries which are violent, and they are a serious social problem. But blaming it on Islam rather than those specific movements is pointless. Could someone please explain to me how a focus on that association will help in any way?

I could just as easily blame organized religion in general for this nonsense, lumping Christianity and Islam together just as you have lumped violent and non-violent Muslims together. But if I were to say "it's time to stop tip-toeing around and start dealing with organized religion by cracking some heads and kicking some ass", I wouldn't receive quite the same reception, would I? People would be upset that I'm lumping the non-violent Christians in with the violent Muslims, wouldn't they? Never mind that from the perspective of someone outside the triumvirate of Jehovah cults, they all look pretty much the same.

It's easy to say "we need to stop tip-toeing around Islam". That's a meaningless statement which says what we need to stop doing, but doesn't say what we need to START doing. Do you suggest outlawing the Islamic religious belief? Do you suggest outlawing the Koran? Do you suggest blowing up Muslim holy sites? What precisely do you suggest we do instead of this "tip-toeing"?

There are some terrorist groups out there which need to be addressed. There are some countries out there with terrible human-rights records which would ideally be dealt with, although that is a practical impossibility. But ramping up the rhetoric against Islam itself is completely pointless and achieves nothing. Any argument against Islam is really an argument against revelatory monotheistic religion in general, and I have yet to see any of you present a compelling argument that it would change a damned thing.

[Sr.mal]

The solution to the problem with Islam is not violence. In the history of Islam whenever there has been a large gap between the rich and the poor in Muslim countries there have been violent revolutions and holy wars. Now when that same country jas been affluent the ideals of fundamentalist Islam do not appeal to the people. They are rich and happy and are willing to accept others. It is when there a a rather large and disproptionent ammoutn of poor do the ideas of Jihad and voilence seem appealing. The solution, albiet not simple nor readily doable, is to not bomb these countries, but to help their economies so that the poor have the oppoutunity to become not poor. While this may seem rather simplistic this is the solution given to me by another student at my college. He is muslim. He is only alive today because 9/11 prevented him from travleing to Saudi Arabia and later to Cechnya. He has since adopted a more moderate view of Islam.

[MKSheppard]

In the history of Islam whenever there has been a large gap between the rich and the poor in Muslim countries there have been violent revolutions and holy wars. Now when that same country jas been affluent the ideals of fundamentalist Islam do not appeal to the people. They are rich and happy and are willing to accept others. It is when there a a rather large and disproptionent ammoutn of poor do the ideas of Jihad and voilence seem appealing.

That's just the problem; fundamentalist militant islam started in none other
than Saudi Arabia; and a lot of Wahhabaists are from the oil-rich sheikdoms
of the middle east where everyone gets something from the oil wealth.

[Sr.mal]

I agree, but the problem still exists in other countires that are not Arab. Only 25% of Muslims are Arab. The rest are in Indonesea, Tha Balkans etc..... The problem is not neccesarily centered in the Mid-East, that is a misnomer. 75% of Muslims are NOT Arab.

[Stormbringer]

Rather smug, aren't we?

Here's a hint: try replacing "Muslim" with "black" in your arguments. Interestingly enough, you can drop it in without altering another word. Then perhaps you'll see the problem (or perhaps you won't, at least not in Shep's case).

Except for taking a cheap shot and making a baseless accusation of racism does any of that have a point?

I am no fan of religion; I don't think I need to prove that to anyone. However, Christians throw stones from a glass house when they argue that Islam is intrinsically violent. There are many social movements within predominantly Muslim countries which are violent, and they are a serious social problem. But blaming it on Islam rather than those specific movements is pointless. Could someone please explain to me how a focus on that association will help in any way?

Religions with a message of agressive, forcible conversion and holy war such as Judeaism, Christianity, and Islam are intrinsically violent. We'd all be better of if we stopped making up crap like "Islam is a religion of peace" and face the facts. It's not and for that matter neither is fundamentalist Christianity. Far better to acknowledge that and instead try to push for Islam to clean up itself. Push the moderates of the Muslim world into acting and actually supporting those that speak out against the fundamentalists. Push for them to actually civilize the religion as Christianity has done in the past century or two.

[Sr.mal]

Exactly look at the Quran and the Hadith's of Muhammed. They both speak of Jihad against the non-belivers. Islam is NOT a peacful, and accepting religion. It's their way or the highway.

[Darth Wong]

Rather smug, aren't we?

Here's a hint: try replacing "Muslim" with "black" in your arguments. Interestingly enough, you can drop it in without altering another word. Then perhaps you'll see the problem (or perhaps you won't, at least not in Shep's case).

Except for taking a cheap shot and making a baseless accusation of racism does any of that have a point?

Yes, and it obviously escaped you, since you responded with a facile strawman. Try again (here's a hint: analogies are generally designed to show problems with underlying logic, not to argue that the situation is actually identical to the analogy).

Religions with a message of agressive, forcible conversion and holy war such as Judeaism, Christianity, and Islam are intrinsically violent. We'd all be better of if we stopped making up crap like "Islam is a religion of peace" and face the facts.

And what constructive suggestions do you have for our actions once we "face the facts"?

It's not and for that matter neither is fundamentalist Christianity. Far better to acknowledge that and instead try to push for Islam to clean up itself.

Precisely how does one "push for Islam to clean up itself"?

Push the moderates of the Muslim world into acting and actually supporting those that speak out against the fundamentalists. Push for them to actually civilize the religion as Christianity has done in the past century or two.

I hear a lot of talk about "pushing". How is this done in this case?

[pellaeons_scion]

And who's going to push this shift of mindset in the region? I dont see who could possibly achieve that, cept for a truly charismatic muslim moderate who could capture teh attention of all muslims. The only teeny problem with that, is they would probably be killed as a threat to traditonal values.

Bah. Muslims say Jihad, Christians say Crusade. Same shit different smell. Both are violent as each other..both cannot seem to tolerate teh idea of difference. The only difference between them at present is there isnt a powerful Christian leader advocating holy war....Im not even going to put Bush in that category until he starts singing Psalms and holding services in the whitehouse.

The solution, albiet not simple nor readily doable, is to not bomb these countries, but to help their economies so that the poor have the oppoutunity to become not poor.

Simplistic, perhaps. But I kinda like this idea. Break the seperation, give them wealth enough to place their minds on other things rather than religion (taxation, Superannuation, welfare etc) and maybe, just maybe they wont have the time for this militancy...kinda hard to plan Jihad when you have kids to get to school, carpooling, shopping, all that stuff in the west we take for granted. Occupy their minds with other things than religious bullshit, and maybe we can stop this. Religion wont disappear from their lives, but It might take a back seat.

[Mr Flibble]

Exactly look at the Quran and the Hadith's of Muhammed. They both speak of Jihad against the non-belivers. Islam is NOT a peacful, and accepting religion. It's their way or the highway.

And take a look at the bible, particularly the old testament, where the ancient hebrews killed or oppressed many because they believed differently. The bible was used to justify the crusades and the inquistion remember. You criticise one you have to criticise the other.

[LordShaithis]

Not to stick up for domestic fundies, but the Crusades were a few centuries ago. Now they just protest dildo stores and lobby ignorant podunk schoolboards.

[Falkenhorst]

Here's my two cents: Is it possible or would it work for the west to formulate and follow a program of genuine friendship towards the countries of the middle east where these extremists are taking root? I've seen it proposed earlier in this thread that a good way to put an end to all this extremism and terrorism is to invest in these countries and to help them prosper, because generally people who have full stomaches and comfortable homes and good health aren't all that concerned with adhering to radical religious doctrines and practising violent terrorism and suicide bombings. I think we need to show fortitude and extend a helping, trustful hand to these people so that they see that they can do well for themselves if they really want to end the war and suffering. The thing is though we need to really want to help them, not just act in our own interests. I realize that the chances are real small of that happening in this world the way it is, but I just wish we could end all this constant quagmire of bullshit that just keeps on perpetuating itself. None of this shit that's being done, suicide bombings, jihads, the war on terror, is really making it better for any of us. It's like taking painkillers for a problem that needs surgery to fix.

[MKSheppard]

Not to stick up for domestic fundies, but the Crusades were a few centuries ago. Now they just protest dildo stores and lobby ignorant podunk schoolboards.

So God Damn True.

[Sarevok]

I agree Mr Wong. Blaming a religion for the actions of a few misguided individuals is wrong. Unfortunately that is exactly what is being done today.

Stravo you have a good point there. The muslim world needs to wake up and see what is exactly wrong with. That is what Mahathir said in his speech. But unfortunately you ignored that part instead claiming that the only thing he said in his 4000 word speech was Jews control the world. I have posted the full text of the speech here http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 18&start=0. Please read it.

[Setzer]

The predominant Christian denomination was the Roman Catholic Church. Their whole attitude towards the religion was "We'll read the Bible and tell you what it says." The Bible is a long (and in places boring) book, not every Christian knows it well. The Catholic Church also had significant political power, like the Mullahs in Iran. Telling the ignorant peasantry that God wants you to conquer and convert this nation to enhance the pope's power is somewhat akin to perverting nationalism to fuel a dictator's dreams of conquest.
I feel the Jihads against the West are the same way.

[Tsyroc]

Not to stick up for domestic fundies, but the Crusades were a few centuries ago. Now they just protest dildo stores and lobby ignorant podunk schoolboards.

...and a small number of them bomb abortion clincs or try to kill physicians who perform abortions.

[Sir Sirius]

Not to stick up for domestic fundies, but the Crusades were a few centuries ago. Now they just protest dildo stores and lobby ignorant podunk schoolboards.

And engage in gay bashing, picket the funerals of gay bashing victims, maintain website that glorify gay bashing, wish to build monuments to glorify gay bashing, promote legislation that will opress homosexuals, bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors who perform abortions.

[AniThyng]

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject:
Here's my two cents: Is it possible or would it work for the west to formulate and follow a program of genuine friendship towards the countries of the middle east where these extremists are taking root? I've seen it proposed earlier in this thread that a good way to put an end to all this extremism and terrorism is to invest in these countries and to help them prosper, because generally people who have full stomaches and comfortable homes and good health aren't all that concerned with adhering to radical religious doctrines and practising violent terrorism and suicide bombings. I think we need to show fortitude and extend a helping, trustful hand to these people so that they see that they can do well for themselves if they really want to end the war and suffering. The thing is though we need to really want to help them, not just act in our own interests. I realize that the chances are real small of that happening in this world the way it is, but I just wish we could end all this constant quagmire of bullshit that just keeps on perpetuating itself. None of this shit that's being done, suicide bombings, jihads, the war on terror, is really making it better for any of us. It's like taking painkillers for a problem that needs surgery to fix.

yes, exactly. well fed, middle class muslim kids and thier parents do not want to kill themselves. no, they want to drink starbucks, buy levi's, drive a mercs, play golf, go to a cineplex and watch a hollywood blockbuster, or kill Terrs in CS. things like that, normal, harmless things.

not blow themselves up.

the trick is actually sustaining a middle class in those muslim countries with almost nil for economic leverage besides oil.
and i'm not sure this applies to places like yemen and syria or whatnot, but it's better then treatening to invade them every few weeks.

[Sarevok]

yes, exactly. well fed, middle class muslim kids and thier parents do not want to kill themselves. no, they want to drink starbucks, buy levi's, drive a mercs, play golf, go to a cineplex and watch a hollywood blockbuster, or kill Terrs in CS. things like that, normal, harmless things.

not blow themselves up.

the trick is actually sustaining a middle class in those muslim countries with almost nil for economic leverage besides oil.
and i'm not sure this applies to places like yemen and syria or whatnot, but it's better then treatening to invade them every few weeks.

You are correct. I myself come from a upper-middle class family and I do not want to blow myself up to kill other people. Most middle class young muslims are just like you described, they are like young people in the west.

In places like New York I have seen people who are muslims but look like, dress like and live like Americans. They are hard to distuinguish from the Americans who lived here for generations.

However this is where the similarities end. Despite being well off and highly educated middle class muslims are still deeply religious. Many of them may not follow religious rules to letter such dress codes and ethics. But on issues like Israeli-Palestinian conflict or the Iraq war they take the same stand. They all hate Israilis and oppose Americas actions in Israel. Even those of them who live in America or Europe do the same.

Clearly the problem is not with muslims society only. Eliminating terrorism requires elimanating the root causes of terrorism and reforming the US goverment. America should remember that military might alone can never defeat terrorism.

[theski]

evilcat4000 wrote:

Clearly the problem is not with muslims society only. Eliminating terrorism requires elimanating the root causes of terrorism and reforming the US goverment. America should remember that military might alone can never defeat terrorism.

Such bullshit.. Terrorism was here long before the Bush Admin and it will be here long after.. and Hugs and Kisses won't either..

[Stravo]

Just to be clear here, the criticism is not of Islam as some seem to be pushing, it is more a criticism of the moderates who find it easier to point to the West and criticize things like profiling but turn a blind eye to the rot in their own midsts.

Someone else mentioned that the Moderates were afriad of being killed, what does that say about the state of Isalm and the radical fringe.

In a thread many months ago I proposed a Marshall plan for the Middle East. Just pour billions of dollars in rebuilding infrastructure and schools. In Afghanistan we have a unique situation where the US is an quasi-occupational power and have done prescisely that. Women are in colleges now and there's running water in remote villages. We do not have the Mujahadin uprisings against our troops like the one the Soviets faced.

This sets a precedent that the hatred and distrust in the Arabic countries is not some inborn monolithic hatred (like a pathetic Romulan/Klingon hatred that seems inborn in Trek) but can be adjusted with the proper incentive.

If you drop a smart bomb on a house you may kill the terrorist cell operating out of there but you create a whole new batch with the angry neighbors and families of the dead terorrists. If you build them a school and give them running water and electricity the terrorist cell really lose much of its authority to rant about the "evil" Americans.

Also Evilcat I read the full transcript, thank you, many American papers focussed on the Jews contro the world statement to exclusion.