ST Photorps — Not As Powerful As They're Cracked Up To Be?

[Alyeska]

Unfortunately, this theory is defeated by the evidence of the photorp blast on Sha Ka Ree being no more powerful than other observed photorp blasts and no others are more powerful than it. Besides, the forcefield barrier was a psychological screen designed to prevent travelers from wanting to travel to Sha Ka Ree more than a forcefield. The effects of the Barrier upon the Enterprise were marginal, and there is no forcefield on the planet itself. Had the Enterprise been within sufficent range, "God" would have merged with the ship and gained its escape from Sha ka Ree and there would have been no forcefield to impede the transfer. So this does not provide any sort of special mechanism for damping photorp blast energy.

I noticed how you left out the rest of his post in order to justify your claim.

Concession accepted.

I was replying specifically to the situation in The Final Frontier. The rest of the post was not relevant to that movie.

But by all means, indulge your fantasies if you see fit.

Really. So making the claim that ST:V was a standard represnation of ST firepower while leaving out a reference that disputes this is just standard debating practice for you?

[Patrick Degan]

So making the claim that ST:V was a standard represnation of ST firepower while leaving out a reference that disputes this is just standard debating practice for you?

A "standard represenentation" which just happens to cohere with every observed photorp blast in the movies and television episodes.

Are photon torpedoes shown to be more powerful in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? No. Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan? No. Star Trek III: The Search For Spock? No. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? No. Generations? No. First Contact? No. Insurrection? No.

Howzabout TV? Are they more powerful than the torpedo in Final Frontier in the episode "Elaan Of Troyus"? No. "Encounter At Far Point?" No. "Skin Of Evil"? No. "Q Who?" No. "The Survivors"? No. "Booby Trap"? No. "Yesterday's Enterprise?" No. "Best Of Both Worlds"? No. "Redemption"? No. "Relics"? No. "Descent"? No. "Way Of The Warrior"? No. "A Call To Arms"? No. "What You Leave Behind"? No. Has the Defiant fired more powerful torpedoes in any episode of DS9? No.

No matter how you try to deny it, "The Die Is Cast" is the exception, not the rule, and therefore does not offer the standard for measuring photorp power.

Furthermore, I know the life preserver you're clinging to here in regards to that episode. The Romulan weapons used in the bombardment of the Founders' homeworld are clearly not consistent with photon torpedoes. They appear, instead, to be a variation of Romulan disruptor or other type energy weapon. And before you issue the denials, we've seen disruptors being employed for both cutting and blaster effect by both the Romulans and the Klingons. We've also seen phasers similarly employed in the TOS episodes "Balance Of Terror" and "Errand Of Mercy", so the concept is not impossible.

So before you presume to beat somebody up for their alledged failures in debating style, you might try basing your arguments on some more solid substance for a change.

[Vympel]

I'm confused, Vympel, are you trying to say that the lower yields on the Slave 1 disproves the 200GT weapons on Acclamators? There are obviously going to be differences in scale. Some weapons are always going to be more powerful than others. How is it not fair to assume that weapons used in ST combat are full yield for those weapons? The Slave-1 quite obviously is nowhere near the most powerful ship in the Galaxy, but it also has some weapons that would be considered extremely powerful if ever it was in the ST universe. Slave-1's light weapons, designed for engaging poorly armored but nimble fighters were full-yield at the time that they were firing at Obi-Wans fighter. Their firepower is obviously not very great. However that does not disprove the seismic charges that Jango used in the same movie. There is no contradiction here, and it IS fair to assume maximum yields for particular weapons during combat.

Nah mate I just meant that it is reasonable to assume that the 'bottom' cannons of the Slave I were set to low yield when they fired at Obi-Wan, and it is also reasonable to think that the torepdo in ST: V was set to low yield.

No explanation for the shocking ST:FC pathetic firepower incident though.

[Kamakazie Sith]

For the ST V argument, (adding a bit of spice into the debate), in the Treks defense they are firing onto a planet which has some sorf of field around it, which is able to contain powerful "god like" energy being.

Unfortunately, this theory is defeated by the evidence of the photorp blast on Sha Ka Ree being no more powerful than other observed photorp blasts and no others are more powerful than it. Besides, the forcefield barrier was a psychological screen designed to prevent travelers from wanting to travel to Sha Ka Ree more than a forcefield. The effects of the Barrier upon the Enterprise were marginal, and there is no forcefield on the planet itself. Had the Enterprise been within sufficent range, "God" would have merged with the ship and gained its escape from Sha ka Ree and there would have been no forcefield to impede the transfer. So this does not provide any sort of special mechanism for damping photorp blast energy.

Actually, Kirk most likely ordered them to remove the warhead.....when he said "Sulu, listen carefully" or "Enterprise, listen carefully" but you get the idea. However, the fact that Kirk is smart enough not to order his own destruction is good enough for me.

[His Divine Shadow]

Its not the weapon that counts, per say. Its the firepower behind the weapon.

Actually, it's somewhat the weapon too, it can take nukes because thats essentially radiation, KE weapons against the hull yields a worse "protection efficency" or something.

[Kamakazie Sith]

A "standard represenentation" which just happens to cohere with every observed photorp blast in the movies and television episodes.

Are photon torpedoes shown to be more powerful in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? No. Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan? No. Star Trek III: The Search For Spock? No. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? No. Generations? No. First Contact? No. Insurrection? No.

Wait...hasn't this already been covered? Photon explosions is space will not be the same as those in an atmosphere.

Howzabout TV? Are they more powerful than the torpedo in Final Frontier in the episode "Elaan Of Troyus"? No. "Encounter At Far Point?" No. "Skin Of Evil"? No. "Q Who?" No. "The Survivors"? No. "Booby Trap"? No. "Yesterday's Enterprise?" No. "Best Of Both Worlds"? No. "Redemption"? No. "Relics"? No. "Descent"? No. "Way Of The Warrior"? No. "A Call To Arms"? No. "What You Leave Behind"? No. Has the Defiant fired more powerful torpedoes in any episode of DS9? No.

All incidents in space.

No matter how you try to deny it, "The Die Is Cast" is the exception, not the rule, and therefore does not offer the standard for measuring photorp power.

This part I agree with, but not to the new lower level that you are reaching for.......(Hand Grenade)

Furthermore, I know the life preserver you're clinging to here in regards to that episode. The Romulan weapons used in the bombardment of the Founders' homeworld are clearly not consistent with photon torpedoes. They appear, instead, to be a variation of Romulan disruptor or other type energy weapon. And before you issue the denials, we've seen disruptors being employed for both cutting and blaster effect by both the Romulans and the Klingons. We've also seen phasers similarly employed in the TOS episodes "Balance Of Terror" and "Errand Of Mercy", so the concept is not impossible.

Hardly surprising since Romulans use plasma torpedoes.

[His Divine Shadow]

I believe the Skin of Evil calcs yield a minimum of 110MT or something, and really people, these low figures, well they are ridiculous really given that any spacefaring society would be able to wield nuclear type weapons in the MT range.

[SPOOFE]

these low figures, well they are ridiculous really given that any spacefaring society would be able to wield nuclear type weapons in the MT range.

And every modern soldier in the field can wield .50 BMG anti-material rifles and shoulder-mounted RPG's, but for some reason they stick with the good ol' 5.56...

Wonder why?

Maybe... the 5.56 is sufficient for their needs?

[His Divine Shadow]

And every modern soldier in the field can wield .50 BMG anti-material rifles and shoulder-mounted RPG's, but for some reason they stick with the good ol' 5.56...

Wonder why?

Maybe... the 5.56 is sufficient for their needs?

But it's not the same with ships, they got shields that have to be breached, and imagine how easy it would be for people to just begin building super ships with MT ranged torpedoes that put out an insane amount of firepower compared to anything else, and we have seen incidents that would put ST torps in the MT range somewhere, and B&B saying that the torps on the Enterprise NX-01 are several times more powerfull than todays nukes(putting them atleast in the KT range)

I think it's unreasonable to try and go for such low numbers for Trek honestly.

[Patrick Degan]

Actually, Kirk most likely ordered them to remove the warhead.....when he said "Sulu, listen carefully" or "Enterprise, listen carefully" but you get the idea. However, the fact that Kirk is smart enough not to order his own destruction is good enough for me.

Objection —assumes facts not in evidence. Attempts at "filling in the blanks" does not offer a proof of anything. Sheer speculation is not evidence.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually, Kirk most likely ordered them to remove the warhead.....when he said "Sulu, listen carefully" or "Enterprise, listen carefully" but you get the idea. However, the fact that Kirk is smart enough not to order his own destruction is good enough for me.

Objection —assumes facts not in evidence. Attempts at "filling in the blanks" does not offer a proof of anything. Sheer speculation is not evidence.

I didn't claim it was evidence. However, it leaves two possibilities.

1 - That TOS photons are very weak

2 - That Kirk ordered the warheads to be removed.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Actually, Kirk most likely ordered them to remove the warhead.....when he said "Sulu, listen carefully" or "Enterprise, listen carefully" but you get the idea. However, the fact that Kirk is smart enough not to order his own destruction is good enough for me.

Objection —assumes facts not in evidence. Attempts at "filling in the blanks" does not offer a proof of anything. Sheer speculation is not evidence.

And another thing, ST: V simply can't be used as evidence that Photons aren't MT yield weapons......why you ask? Because Kirk would had to have killed himself in order to satisfy your needs.

[Patrick Degan]

A "standard represenentation" which just happens to cohere with every observed photorp blast in the movies and television episodes.

Are photon torpedoes shown to be more powerful in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? No. Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan? No. Star Trek III: The Search For Spock? No. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? No. Generations? No. First Contact? No. Insurrection? No.

Wait...hasn't this already been covered? Photon explosions is space will not be the same as those in an atmosphere.

The energy release will be the same, regardless of whether the detonation is in space or atmosphere. An unshielded ship hit with a kiloton or megaton range weapon will not survive the blast.

Howzabout TV? Are they more powerful than the torpedo in Final Frontier in the episode "Elaan Of Troyus"? No. "Encounter At Far Point?" No. "Skin Of Evil"? No. "Q Who?" No. "The Survivors"? No. "Booby Trap"? No. "Yesterday's Enterprise?" No. "Best Of Both Worlds"? No. "Redemption"? No. "Relics"? No. "Descent"? No. "Way Of The Warrior"? No. "A Call To Arms"? No. "What You Leave Behind"? No. Has the Defiant fired more powerful torpedoes in any episode of DS9? No.

All incidents in space.
[/quote]

We're not talking about localised environmental effects, we're talking about energy release. We do not see nuclear-level energy releases accompanying a photorp blast.

No matter how you try to deny it, "The Die Is Cast" is the exception, not the rule, and therefore does not offer the standard for measuring photorp power.

This part I agree with, but not to the new lower level that you are reaching for.......(Hand Grenade)
[/quote]

The lower level I'm "reaching" for (which is nowhere near that of a hand greanade) is based upon a complete failure to observe any remotely powerful photorp blast. When I see that a photorp can strike an unprotected starship hull and does not destroy the entire ship in the blast, I must assume that I am not seeing a nuclear-level energy event taking place.

Furthermore, I know the life preserver you're clinging to here in regards to that episode. The Romulan weapons used in the bombardment of the Founders' homeworld are clearly not consistent with photon torpedoes. They appear, instead, to be a variation of Romulan disruptor or other type energy weapon. And before you issue the denials, we've seen disruptors being employed for both cutting and blaster effect by both the Romulans and the Klingons. We've also seen phasers similarly employed in the TOS episodes "Balance Of Terror" and "Errand Of Mercy", so the concept is not impossible.

Hardly surprising since Romulans use plasma torpedoes.
[/quote]

In point of fact, we do not know the nature of the weapon being used by the Romulans in the TDiC bombardment. The one thing we know for certain is that it is not a photon torpedo.

[Patrick Degan]

Actually, Kirk most likely ordered them to remove the warhead.....when he said "Sulu, listen carefully" or "Enterprise, listen carefully" but you get the idea. However, the fact that Kirk is smart enough not to order his own destruction is good enough for me.

Objection —assumes facts not in evidence. Attempts at "filling in the blanks" does not offer a proof of anything. Sheer speculation is not evidence.

I didn't claim it was evidence. However, it leaves two possibilities.

1 - That TOS photons are very weak

Which does not explain the similarly weak TNG photorps

2 - That Kirk ordered the warheads to be removed.

Which we have zero evidence for. Simply saying so endlessly does not make it so.

[Patrick Degan]

And another thing, ST: V simply can't be used as evidence that Photons aren't MT yield weapons......why you ask? Because Kirk would had to have killed himself in order to satisfy your needs.

Non sequitor. I've pointed out numerous examples of how photon torpedoes are not MT- or even KT-range weapons and how the incident in STV fits in with these examples. You're falling into the same sort of sophistry DarkStar favours; assuming the premise of your argument to be the proof of your argument and attempting to contort the evidence to make it fit the predetermined conclusion.

[Kamakazie Sith]

A "standard represenentation" which just happens to cohere with every observed photorp blast in the movies and television episodes.

Are photon torpedoes shown to be more powerful in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? No. Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan? No. Star Trek III: The Search For Spock? No. Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country? No. Generations? No. First Contact? No. Insurrection? No.

Wait...hasn't this already been covered? Photon explosions is space will not be the same as those in an atmosphere.

The energy release will be the same, regardless of whether the detonation is in space or atmosphere. An unshielded ship hit with a kiloton or megaton range weapon will not survive the blast.

I see, so a unshielded SW ship will not survive a KT or MT range weapon?

Howzabout TV? Are they more powerful than the torpedo in Final Frontier in the episode "Elaan Of Troyus"? No. "Encounter At Far Point?" No. "Skin Of Evil"? No. "Q Who?" No. "The Survivors"? No. "Booby Trap"? No. "Yesterday's Enterprise?" No. "Best Of Both Worlds"? No. "Redemption"? No. "Relics"? No. "Descent"? No. "Way Of The Warrior"? No. "A Call To Arms"? No. "What You Leave Behind"? No. Has the Defiant fired more powerful torpedoes in any episode of DS9? No.

All incidents in space.

We're not talking about localised environmental effects, we're talking about energy release. We do not see nuclear-level energy releases accompanying a photorp blast.

and what should it look like again?

No matter how you try to deny it, "The Die Is Cast" is the exception, not the rule, and therefore does not offer the standard for measuring photorp power.

This part I agree with, but not to the new lower level that you are reaching for.......(Hand Grenade)
[/quote]

The lower level I'm "reaching" for (which is nowhere near that of a hand greanade) is based upon a complete failure to observe any remotely powerful photorp blast. When I see that a photorp can strike an unprotected starship hull and does not destroy the entire ship in the blast, I must assume that I am not seeing a nuclear-level energy event taking place.

But thinking that the starships hull is made out of something that can withstand KT or MT range weapons is completely out of the question for you?

Furthermore, I know the life preserver you're clinging to here in regards to that episode. The Romulan weapons used in the bombardment of the Founders' homeworld are clearly not consistent with photon torpedoes. They appear, instead, to be a variation of Romulan disruptor or other type energy weapon. And before you issue the denials, we've seen disruptors being employed for both cutting and blaster effect by both the Romulans and the Klingons. We've also seen phasers similarly employed in the TOS episodes "Balance Of Terror" and "Errand Of Mercy", so the concept is not impossible.

Hardly surprising since Romulans use plasma torpedoes.
[/quote]

In point of fact, we do not know the nature of the weapon being used by the Romulans in the TDiC bombardment. The one thing we know for certain is that it is not a photon torpedo.[/quote]

Sounds like speculation to me. The only two devices we've seen the Romulans use are Photons and Plasma torpedo....to claim it may have been something else is without evidence.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Nope you loose

The Romulons have never used Klingon Photorps. They always use plasma weapons, or Klingon based Disruptor Tech. Strangely since the TOS it was Gorn=Powerful Plasma Beam Weapons, Romulons Plasma Torps, Klingon= Disruptors, and Feds=Phasors & Photon Torps.

Since Star Trek TMP, Klingons have grown bumps, and started using Photon Torps when they never did in TOS, Now Enterprise shows that they invented Photorps...., Romulons and Gorns had the egg's with one shot kill weapons aspect, they couldn't survive an engagement with a fed ship, but no fed ship could surve a hit from their weapons. Now the Gorn have dissappeared and the Romulons are now using Disruptors. Still I have yet to see the romulons power up Photon Torps.....

[Kamakazie Sith]

Nope you loose

The Romulons have never used Klingon Photorps. They always use plasma weapons, or Klingon based Disruptor Tech. Strangely since the TOS it was Gorn=Powerful Plasma Beam Weapons, Romulons Plasma Torps, Klingon= Disruptors, and Feds=Phasors & Photon Torps.

Since Star Trek TMP, Klingons have grown bumps, and started using Photon Torps when they never did in TOS, Now Enterprise shows that they invented Photorps...., Romulons and Gorns had the egg's with one shot kill weapons aspect, they couldn't survive an engagement with a fed ship, but no fed ship could surve a hit from their weapons. Now the Gorn have dissappeared and the Romulons are now using Disruptors. Still I have yet to see the romulons power up Photon Torps.....

Huh....I don't recall claiming they used Klingon Torpedoes.

[Patrick Degan]

so a unshielded SW ship will not survive a KT or MT range weapon?

We're not talking about SW ships. We're talking about ST ships. And in point of fact, the SWICS and SWEGS do inform us of the durability of Imperial starship hulls.

We're not talking about localised environmental effects, we're talking about energy release. We do not see nuclear-level energy releases accompanying a photorp blast.

and what should it look like again?
[/quote]

Are you kidding?! What does radiational energy look like? A luminicent sphere and one which endures for longer than a mere fraction of a second.

If you need a quick visual reference, then I refer you to the outerspace detonations of nuclear weapons observed in episodes of Babylon 5 (particularly in ITB) and compare those to any photorp blast we've ever seen.

But thinking that the starships hull is made out of something that can withstand KT or MT range weapons is completely out of the question for you?

It's out of the question because we see that ST starship hulls cannot even withstand relatively low-velocity kinetic impacts ala the photorp which blasts its way right through the unshielded E-A without detonating in The Undiscovered Country. Were you not actually paying attention when you were alledgedly watching the movie?

In point of fact, we do not know the nature of the weapon being used by the Romulans in the TDiC bombardment. The one thing we know for certain is that it is not a photon torpedo.

Sounds like speculation to me. The only two devices we've seen the Romulans use are Photons and Plasma torpedo....to claim it may have been something else is without evidence.
[/quote]

And the weapon in the TDiC bombardment is similar to the Romulan plasma weapon from "Balance Of Terror" in what way exactly? "Speculation" is labeling a weapon a plasma torpedo with no corroborating evidence or dialogue to back the assertion. Furthermore, we certainly do see the Romulan starships using disruptor weapons in "The Defector", "Tin Man" and "Timescape".

The only person engaging in speculation is yourself, KS.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And another thing, ST: V simply can't be used as evidence that Photons aren't MT yield weapons......why you ask? Because Kirk would had to have killed himself in order to satisfy your needs.

Non sequitor. I've pointed out numerous examples of how photon torpedoes are not MT- or even KT-range weapons and how the incident in STV fits in with these examples. You're falling into the same sort of sophistry DarkStar favours; assuming the premise of your argument to be the proof of your argument and attempting to contort the evidence to make it fit the predetermined conclusion.

Actually all I'm interested in is your use of ST: V as an accurate example of photon torpedo firepower.

ST: V is the LOWEST example of photon firepower.....period. I also have to ask you why a characters self-preservation isn't considered evidence?

[Kamakazie Sith]

We're not talking about SW ships. We're talking about ST ships. And in point of fact, the SWICS and SWEGS do inform us of the durability of Imperial starship hulls.

In TOS, the E-Nil survived a nuclear blast against the bare hull IIRC. Will that do? I suppose it won't because we don't know the yield.

Are you kidding?! What does radiational energy look like? A luminicent sphere and one which endures for longer than a mere fraction of a second.

If you need a quick visual reference, then I refer you to the outerspace detonations of nuclear weapons observed in episodes of Babylon 5 (particularly in ITB) and compare those to any photorp blast we've ever seen.

No no....what should an M/AM detonation look like? The same?

It's out of the question because we see that ST starship hulls cannot even withstand relatively low-velocity kinetic impacts ala the photorp which blasts its way right through the unshielded E-A without detonating in The Undiscovered Country. Were you not actually paying attention when you were alledgedly watching the movie?

To be honest I wasn't interested in these debates when I last watched that movie, considering at the time I thought the TM was canon and since I know it would be boring watching ships zoom across the screen at C...I always though the torpedoes were moving at warp. In TUC it seemed as though the torpedo detonated and the explosion is what caused the hull breach....though it's been a very long time...so I guess I'll have to take your word for it.

And the weapon in the TDiC bombardment is similar to the Romulan plasma weapon from "Balance Of Terror" in what way exactly? "Speculation" is labeling a weapon a plasma torpedo with no corroborating evidence or dialogue to back the assertion. Furthermore, we certainly do see the Romulan starships using disruptor weapons in "The Defector", "Tin Man" and "Timescape".

The only person engaging in speculation is yourself, KS.

The evidence is the fact that photons and plasma torpedoes are the known primary missile type weapons of the Romulan Star Empire.

And why are you bringing up disruptors? Those are not missile weapons. Though since we are on the subject the Romulans have been seen to use both disruptors and phasers.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Patrick, exactly what yield are you shooting for?

[Patrick Degan]

Actually all I'm interested in is your use of ST: V as an accurate example of photon torpedo firepower. ST: V is the LOWEST example of photon firepower.....period.

And your examples of higher photorp power are to be found where exactly? Which episodes? Which movies? I've pointed out numerous examples consistent with STV

I also have to ask you why a characters self-preservation isn't considered evidence?

BECAUSE WE DON'T HEAR EVEN A SINGLE FUCKING SYLLABLE of dialogue from the movie in support of this contention you keep dragging out, and we certainly do not see any action to adjust the photorp yield or a swapping out of a powerful warhead for a less powerful one. You accuse me of speculation in one aspect of this discussion, yet engage in rampant and shameless speculation yourself to support your assertions. You can't have it both ways.

[SPOOFE]

HDS...

I think it's unreasonable to try and go for such low numbers for Trek honestly.

Oh, I'm not going to quibble about the exact weapons yields. In most debates, I'm still going to assume the old 64 megaton number, even though I know that it has no official standing.

Kamikazie...

ST: V simply can't be used as evidence that Photons aren't MT yield weapons......why you ask? Because Kirk would had to have killed himself in order to satisfy your needs.

True enough. Although one wonders why he ordered a torp at all, if they were such overkill (indeed, one would need to decelerate as it went through the atmosphere in order to cause that little damage). Why not simply order a phaser blast?

It confuses me. Same with the ST:FC weapons.

Oh well. That's why they made advil.

[Kamakazie Sith]

And your examples of higher photorp power are to be found where exactly? Which episodes? Which movies? I've pointed out numerous examples consistent with STV

Consistent with STV? Think of the scaling of those explosions caused by photons against starships, and then think of the explosion caused by the photon in STV.

Off the top of my head I can think of TNG "Skin of Evil"

BECAUSE WE DON'T HEAR EVEN A SINGLE FUCKING SYLLABLE of dialogue from the movie in support of this contention you keep dragging out, and we certainly do not see any action to adjust the photorp yield or a swapping out of a powerful warhead for a less powerful one. You accuse me of speculation in one aspect of this discussion, yet engage in rampant and shameless speculation yourself to support your assertions. You can't have it both ways.

My speculation that Kirk doesn't want to kill himself is so very shameless....

Yes my speculation, Kirk doesn't want to kill himself, is so very shameless.