A dirty little secret of professional fire-fighting.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-29 06:57am

Did you know that even though Marine CH53 helicopter squadrons (And several ANG & Army) are equipped with fire-fighting Bambi-Buckets and regularly train in their use, they are not allowed to help out in fires, because their presence constitutes unfair competition and economical hardship to the civilian fire fighting aircraft operators?

Even though there's always at least 2 helicopters on fire-bucket stand-by at all times, and that a CH53E can drop more water than most civilian operators and do it at night if needed, the military will be sued if they help before the civilian operators throw the towel in, or if an emergency is declared and the state goverment makes the request.

MCAS Miramar alone could put at least 30 CH53E's to work on the So Cal fires.

Nice huh?

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-10-29 07:24am

that's pretty much all I got.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-29 07:27am

They should deploy that big arse Il-76 waterbomber, like they were going to do a few years back. Of course, national pride nixed that idea.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-10-29 07:41am

Nice let the fire spread more cause they do not want to look like incompetant ass.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-10-29 08:22am

Nice to see bureaucracy triumphing over common sense yet again...

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-10-29 09:13am

ahhhh behold the glorious logic of municipal firefighters unions!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-29 09:20am

I remember during last years fires a private construction company offered to bulldoze a huge firebreak to protect a town from an advancing fire, and to do so for free and with a pledge of money and resources to replace the trees later. The offer was turned down and much of the area was soon incinerated.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-10-29 11:02am

I'm sure the thousands who have lost their homes would rip the individuals responsible for this policy limb from limb if they found out who they were.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-10-29 01:34pm

3rd Impact wrote:Nice to see bureaucracy triumphing over common sense yet again...

isn't it though

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-29 01:38pm

You've got to love the sheer fucking stupidity.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-10-29 01:52pm

Behold...stupidity at it's fucking finest.

Yes, even though this would save lives and homes...but nope civilian policy says otherwise.

Dumbasses

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-10-29 04:12pm

Vympel wrote:They should deploy that big arse Il-76 waterbomber, like they were going to do a few years back. Of course, national pride nixed that idea.

Russia's own forestry services are massively under funded and overworked, I highly doubt such an offer was ever serious.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-29 07:02pm

Unless thats a california specific law, thats pure bullshit Shep. This year in Montana we had two UH-60s, an H-46 and H-47 all fighting fires. I KNOW the H-60 is NOT civilian rated and they were painted military green.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-29 08:41pm

Are you sure the Montana state govt. didn't declare a state of emergency?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-10-29 10:43pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Are you sure the Montana state govt. didn't declare a state of emergency?

I'm sure they did. The fire these helicopters were being used on (Glacier Park Apgar fire) was declared the most important fire in the nation and fire teams from across the country came to assist.

Does this mean the idiots in California have NOT declared a state of emergency?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-10-29 11:35pm

I live near Mir-o-mar. Cool that a helip is named after the town.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-30 12:12am

Alyeska wrote:
I'm sure they did. The fire these helicopters were being used on (Glacier Park Apgar fire) was declared the most important fire in the nation and fire teams from across the country came to assist.

Does this mean the idiots in California have NOT declared a state of emergency?

I'm certain Bush declared *something* in relation to them ...

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-10-30 01:23am

MKSheppard wrote:
*snip*

Nice huh?

I hope this is BS...

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-10-30 01:24am

A state of emergency has been declared and there are federal aircraft making water runs. I heard today several C-130's had the windows damaged cause there is so much debris being thrown up into the air.

I cant comment on the Marine helos' but water aircraft are used to protect structures and ground teams. They dont make a dent in the fire overall.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-10-30 01:34am

Been time to bring in 'Dozers and create some firebreaks...

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-30 04:15am

Alyeska wrote:Unless thats a california specific law, thats pure bullshit Shep. This year in Montana we had two UH-60s, an H-46 and H-47 all fighting fires. I KNOW the H-60 is NOT civilian rated and they were painted military green.

GHAhahaha

San Diego-based Navy helicopters, routinely used to fight fires on military property, were prepared to battle the Cedar fire on Sunday but remained grounded because state officials said the Navy pilots did not have appropriate training. The helicopters were flown to the Ramona airport, but pilots were denied permission to drop water as the fire began its march south and west.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... california

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-30 04:24am

From the board I nicked this off originally:

You have to remember that the contractors flying the fires are making gigantic amounts of money off of these fires right now. No one, especially the people who are politically connected to them, wants free competition. It's all about the money.

Similar thing happended in Yellowstone years ago. 101st aircarft had to be called in when the fire got too big. The civillians cried a river about how they shouldn't be there, but it was all about how much money they were loosing.

The deployed units had to guard their aircraft against sabotage and several had buckets of water dumped on them IN FLIGHT by civillian contractors in places were there was no fire.

Just business as usual in the good ole' USA! It's not about helping the public and fighting the actual threat. It's all about how much they can line their pockets with.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-10-30 04:26am

You don't get gross incompetance untill Berue of Prison's Firecrews show up....

First we have to build the seprate camp for them, then we have to feed and house their guards (who get hazzard pay, and insist on better food/accomedations then the rest of us (they get trailers, we live in tents)) Then you have the actuall prisoners themselves, who can't handle most of the area's because of security concerns, and because they lack mobility to deal with most wildfire area's due to restraints (not to mention, the gaurds complain if the smoke gets too bad). Now it gets really bad when your told to WAIT for the prisoners, because the OES wants to use more of them because they are CHEAPER (not once you factor that your paying for all of their support survices) Then theirs the Morale and training factor, your typical Volunteer even your CCC and your Suspended Poroled into the CCC types spend 3 times as much time training for firefighting as do the convicts, not to mention they actually have morale going for them. and have access to tools that the prisoners will never be trusted with (Chainsaws and certain types of brush hooks, which while being capable of removing trees, we also have to train you on how to use them so you don't remove your neighbor's limbs)

Air drop's cools down the area, the best firefighting weapon is John Deer or Catapiller.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-10-30 04:31am

And Shep, your forgetting I spent TWO YEARS with the State of California's Office of Emergency Services as a fire dispatcher/CCC secretary (CCC personal loaned to OES to work as a secretary, dispatcher, National Guard Leassion, Movie Stand in, & one time FEMA gate gaurd for 2 days.

I wonder would my 48 hours as a FEMA deputized Gaurdsman count for membership into the Mess?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-30 04:32am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:And Shep, your forgetting I spent TWO YEARS with the State of California's Office of Emergency Services as a fire dispatcher/CCC secretary

I'm not, You got shot at by gang bangers too

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

A dirty little secret of professional fire-fighting.

A dirty little secret of professional fire-fighting.

Re: A dirty little secret of professional fire-fighting.