Metal Gear Solid (spoilers)

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 04:14am

On a whim, I decided last weekend to dust off my copies of Metal Gear and play them straight through in a single day. I started with the original NES game, then I went on to Metal Gear Solid (don't have Metal Gear 2...) and finally, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty.

What surprised me most about my little excursion into gaming history was how well these games have aged. The original Metal Gear may be the most engrossing and original game that the NES produced. Metal Gear Solid improved on this (yet stayed surprisingly close to the original in gameplay) and added some killer cinematic moments and characters. MGS 2 brought the gameplay up to sheer bliss standards although the story became a little too much for me towards the end.

Altogether, I was amazed at just how good these games were. I can't remember a single game in my history as a gamer that gripped me so amazingly as the Metal Gear games without providing a single dull moment. Sure, MGS: 2's storyline went a little far out there (I'll be damned if I know what the hell was going on) but the gameplay was so outstanding that it didn't lose me for a second.

Lately I've noticed a lot of people bashing MGS: 2 and even the original MGS and I'm wondering, how in retrospect does everyone feel about this series? What do you guys like about it and what do you despise? Is anyone looking forward to MGS: 3 as much as I am? Did MGS: 2 make sense to anyone? Thoughts please.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-10-29 04:23am

I don't understand how anyone could bash Metal Gear Solid: it's a fantastic game that strike the correct balance between story and gameplay- I eagerly await the Gamecube remake (which will have MGS2 level tech).

However, Sons of Liberty, in hindsight, is not nearly as good. While technically brilliant and with some nice gameplay touches (I loved the dog tag system) it had the following problems:

1. No Solid Snake. Instead, you played as Raiden, a slightly effeminate blonde guy.

2. Ridiculous plot: this really shows how pretentious Hideo Kojima is, I mean, really, the plot was such a self-masturbatory, barely understandable, Trek like journey into pure tedium that I don't know why I kept on playing. From Revolver Ocelot being 'taken over' by Liquid Snake's arm (WHAT THE FUCK!?) to the entire "what you did was just a simulation, it's all an illusion designed to do this, but I knew that, I wanted the list of names of the Patriots, but no, they're all dead ... blah blah fucking BLAH", it was sickeningly inept.

This is made all the more painful by the strong start the game had and the excellent material they had to work with: the use of Spetsnaz and Ka-60s and Harriers and overall COOL opponents (much better than the obscure FAMAS toting guys in MGS).

3. Too many cutscenes, not enough gameplay, way too easy. The ultimate rental.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-10-29 05:22am

One of the main flaws with MGS2, is that it's basically a cheap rehash of MGS1, and even admits it in the dialogue, "An orchestrated re-creation of Shadow Moses". Definately too much talk and not enough action. If I wanted that, I'd see On Deadly Ground again

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-10-29 10:14am

Sadly because of Nintendo bastards, we never got MG2...which honestly fills in all those holes of MGS quite well.

For me...Metal Gear was okay, Metal Gear 2 actually first incorporate virtually all of MGS trick except a few 3D needed ones. MGS added the 3D and MGS2 added finishing touches.

Storywise not going into it because each time descends into something a little too trek like(sorry the first one involved that you were so fucking stupid you never realized your boss was the evil enemy even with the descriptions from others). MGS had by far one of the dumbest interpretations and thoughts about Dominant and Recessive Genes(yes...since I'm made of dominant genes=me god!!!!!). MGS2 was a fantasy of conspiracy and bullshit logic(yes...arms takes over minds).

Overall getting MGS: Twin Snakes, because out of 1&2...prefered 1 much more...since I got to do MORE.

Though Metal Gear: Vietnam(MGS3) looks very cool and is supposed to be the story of Big Boss.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 02:01pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Though Metal Gear: Vietnam(MGS3) looks very cool and is supposed to be the story of Big Boss.

Don't count on it. I know the trailer makes it look like that, but Kojima is very good at misleading and decieving his fans (one of the things he loves to do the most). There are several indications that this ISN'T set during the 1960's including "Snake's" HALO jump and throat mic.

SHODAN · Post by **SHODAN** » 2003-10-29 04:48pm

I absolutely adore MSG. The sheer vivacious of its plot is simply unutterable.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 06:18pm

SHODAN wrote:I absolutely adore MSG. The sheer vivacious of its plot is simply unutterable.

Dude, I totally love the way you put that

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 09:24pm

Dominant and Recessive Genes(yes...since I'm made of dominant genes=me god!!!!!). MGS2 was a fantasy of conspiracy and bullshit logic(yes...arms takes over minds).

I remember that. I was in 10th grade at the time, and had just finished sophomore biology, so I thought I was stupid and didn't know what they were talking about. Luckily for me, I later learned that it wasn't my fault that the writers knew less about biology than me.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 10:17pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Dominant and Recessive Genes(yes...since I'm made of dominant genes=me god!!!!!). MGS2 was a fantasy of conspiracy and bullshit logic(yes...arms takes over minds).
I remember that. I was in 10th grade at the time, and had just finished sophomore biology, so I thought I was stupid and didn't know what they were talking about. Luckily for me, I later learned that it wasn't my fault that the writers knew less about biology than me.

If you just put your Star Trek Technobabble Filter on, it really isn't all that bad. Yes, Hideki Kojima could use a biology lesson, but his story is that of a humanist, not a scientist. He's using a lot of big sounding words to try to tell a very complex story about what consitutes a human being and their personality.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 10:30pm

No, it's worse than any Treknobabble. Dominant genes aren't automatically good, and recessive genes aren't automatically bad.

Also, if each Snake brother in fact had either 100% dominant or 100% recessive genes, they wouldn't have looked like twins.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 10:58pm

Durran Korr wrote:No, it's worse than any Treknobabble. Dominant genes aren't automatically good, and recessive genes aren't automatically bad.

Also, if each Snake brother in fact had either 100% dominant or 100% recessive genes, they wouldn't have looked like twins.

Durraan, I noticed that whenever were in a thread together, we always seem to be on the opposite side.

Anyways, I think you're missing my point. The reality of it doesn't matter to me, I can still let things like this slide, especially since I doubt Liquid meant it literally. He was saying that Solid Snake got the best of Big Bosses genes and in this way they were the "dominant" genes.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-10-29 11:09pm

Except dominat genes have nothing to do with what's best or worse, it always buged me too. And one of them would have a tiny nose, the other a huge one and stuff like that.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-30 12:37am

Durraan, I noticed that whenever were in a thread together, we always seem to be on the opposite side.

Oh, yeah. Heh.

Anyways, I think you're missing my point. The reality of it doesn't matter to me, I can still let things like this slide, especially since I doubt Liquid meant it literally. He was saying that Solid Snake got the best of Big Bosses genes and in this way they were the "dominant" genes.

I can let bad science slide (I'm an anime fan, ferchrissakes). I'm not a scientist, and I'm one of the least scientifically knowledgable members on this board. But can I let appaling ignorance of very simple, basic high school genetics slide in a story about the evils of genetic determinism? No. If he wants to rant about that kind of thing, fine. I probably agree with him. But he should have some basic idea of what the hell he's talking about.

It would have been fine for Liquid to complain of being given all of Big Boss' weaker genes; the science would still be improbable, but not outside what can be bought into after suspending your disbelief. But no, Kojima had to have him ranting about how he got all the weak, "recessive" genes from Big Boss and Solid Snake got all the "dominant" ones. We can just use a cheap and dirty explanation to explain this, in-universe; "Liquid Snake didn't know what the fuck he was talking about," but that still doesn't excuse the ignorance of the writers.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-30 01:37am

Durran Korr wrote: I can let bad science slide (I'm an anime fan, ferchrissakes). I'm not a scientist, and I'm one of the least scientifically knowledgable members on this board. But can I let appaling ignorance of very simple, basic high school genetics slide in a story about the evils of genetic determinism? No. If he wants to rant about that kind of thing, fine. I probably agree with him. But he should have some basic idea of what the hell he's talking about.

It would have been fine for Liquid to complain of being given all of Big Boss' weaker genes; the science would still be improbable, but not outside what can be bought into after suspending your disbelief. But no, Kojima had to have him ranting about how he got all the weak, "recessive" genes from Big Boss and Solid Snake got all the "dominant" ones. We can just use a cheap and dirty explanation to explain this, in-universe; "Liquid Snake didn't know what the fuck he was talking about," but that still doesn't excuse the ignorance of the writers.

Let me venture one other possibility. Kojima is Japanese and the translators might have taken a little "creative liberties" with some of the technobabble. This would hardly be unusual as game publisher translation teams don't tend to agonize over accurate translations as much as anime/film ones do.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-30 01:39am

That's possible. But given the relative quality of the localization of Metal Gear Solid, I would call it unlikely.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-30 05:19am

Durran Korr wrote:That's possible. But given the relative quality of the localization of Metal Gear Solid, I would call it unlikely.

Without arguing that specific point about MGS's localization, I would like to point out that with the volumous amount of dialogue in any video game, a loving translation isn't exactly high on the priority list, even on a title like MGS.

The way it works is that the local team pretty much has the ball as far as translations go and they are given almost complete autonomy over the translation work. It is almost as if they reinterpret the script in such a way that makes it suitable to the language they are releasing it in (I know this sounds hard to believe, but I've worked in this industry before and this is how it works). That's not to say that they totally rewrite it, just that they don't worry as much about a literal translation as for an anime or live-action movie from Japan. Take a look at Final Fantasy titles if you want an example. The Japanese versions are actually quite different in the dialogue department and Square spends loads of money localizing them. MGS is a huge title, no doubt about it, but they don't have the purist attitudes about this that the anime distributors have.

Once again, I'm not trying to say that the specific dialogue bit about dominant genes was fudged, just that these translations are handled liberally and not under the guise of the creators (who most of the time don't even speak English anyways).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-10-30 09:50am

I belive the biggest problem is that no one ever complained about bad localization.

So while a possiblity, unlikely given that gamers who do play the original japanese and do understand it, would scream all high holy hell that said game was perverted by stupid american pigs.

Thus the Dominant=good, recessive=Bad is most likely in there, and in that form.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2003-10-30 07:12pm

The Kernel wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Though Metal Gear: Vietnam(MGS3) looks very cool and is supposed to be the story of Big Boss.
Don't count on it. I know the trailer makes it look like that, but Kojima is very good at misleading and decieving his fans (one of the things he loves to do the most). There are several indications that this ISN'T set during the 1960's including "Snake's" HALO jump and throat mic.

Well, there's also the M-16A1, and the Soviet Union. Maybe this takes place in the 1980's, when Snake is a Devil Dog instead of a FOX-HOUND spook.