Abrams felled in Iraq... by a mysterious 'something'

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Abrams felled in Iraq... by a mysterious 'something'

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

I can't imagine anything worse for tank crew's moral, in Iraq, then a widespread rumor the the Russian's are supplying brand new, more effective, RPGs to the Iraqi militants.


http://www.armytimes.com/print.php?f=1- ... 336437.php
"Something" felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq ? but what?
Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials

By John Roos
Special to the Times


Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad "was hit by something" that crippled the 69-ton behemoth.
Army officials still are puzzling over what that ?something? was.

According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicle?s skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that ?my little finger will not go into it,? the report?s author noted.

The ?something? continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner?s seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunner?s flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1½ to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank.

As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made the tank one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of ?mobility kills? since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. The other Abrams knocked out this year in Iraq was hit by an RPG-7, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new ? and that worries tank drivers.

Mystery and anxiety

Terry Hughes is a technical representative from Rock Island Arsenal, Ill., who examined the tank in Baghdad and wrote the report.

In the sort of excited language seldom included in official Army documents, he said, ?The unit is very anxious to have this ?SOMETHING? identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves.?

Nevertheless, the Abrams continues its record of providing extraordinary crew protection. The four-man crew suffered only minor injuries in the attack. The tank commander received ?minor shrapnel wounds to the legs and arms and the gunner got some in his arm? as a result of the attack, according to the report.

Whatever penetrated the tank created enough heat inside the hull to activate the vehicle?s Halon firefighting gear, which probably prevented more serious injuries to the crew.

The soldiers of 2nd Battalion, 70th Armor Regiment, 1st Armor Division who were targets of the attack weren?t the only ones wondering what damaged their 69-ton tank.

Hughes also was puzzled. ?Can someone tell us?? he wrote. ?If not, can we get an expert on foreign munitions over here to examine this vehicle before repairs are begun? Please respond quickly.?

His report went to the office of the combat systems program manager at the U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command in Warren, Mich. A command spokesman said he could provide no information about the incident.

?The information is sensitive,? he said. ?It looks like [members of the program manager?s office] are not going to release any information right now.?

While it?s impossible to determine what caused the damage without actually examining the tank, some conclusions can be drawn from photos that accompanied the incident report. Those photos show a pencil-size penetration hole through the tank body, but very little sign of the distinctive damage ? called spalling ? that typically occurs on the inside surface after a hollow- or shaped-charge warhead from an anti-tank weapon burns its way through armor.

Spalling results when an armor penetrator pushes a stream of molten metal ahead of it as it bores through an armored vehicle?s protective skin.

?It?s a real strange impact,? said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. ?This is a new one. ? It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7? anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.

The well-known RPG-7 has been the scourge of lightly armored vehicles since its introduction more than 40 years ago. Its hollow-charge warhead easily could punch through an M1?s skirt and the relatively thin armor of its armpit joint, the area above the tracks and beneath the deck on which the turret sits, just where the mystery round hit the tank.

An RPG-7 can penetrate about 12 inches of steel ? a thickness far greater than the armor that was penetrated on the tank in Baghdad. But the limited spalling evident in the photos accompanying the incident report all but rules out the RPG-7 as the culprit, experts say.

Limited spalling is a telltale characteristic of Western-manufactured weapons designed to defeat armor with a cohesive jet stream of molten metal. In contrast, RPG-7s typically produce a fragmented jet spray.

The incident is so sensitive that most experts in the field would talk only on the condition that they not be identified.

One armor expert at Fort Knox, Ky., suggested the tank may have been hit by an updated RPG. About 15 years ago, Russian scientists created tandem-warhead anti-tank-grenades designed to defeat reactive armor. The new round, a PG-7VR, can be fired from an RPG-7V launcher and might have left the unusual signature on the tank.

In addition, the Russians have developed an improved weapon, the RPG-22. These and perhaps even newer variants have been used against American forces in Afghanistan. It is believed U.S. troops seized some that have been returned to the United States for testing, but scant details about their effects and ?fingerprints? are available.

Still another possibility is a retrofitted warhead for the RPG system being developed by a Swiss manufacturer.

At this time, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank, sources concluded. The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead, and the cohesive nature of the destructive jet suggests a more effective weapon than a fragmented-jet RPG-7.

A spokesman for General Dynamics Land Systems, which manufactures the Abrams, said company engineers agree some type of RPG probably caused the damage. After checking with them, the spokesman delivered the manufacturer?s verdict: The tank was hit by ?a ?golden? RPG? ? an extremely lucky shot.

In the end, a civilian weapons expert said, ?I hope it was a lucky shot and we are not part of someone?s test program. Being a live target is no fun.?

John Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal, which is owned by Army Times Publishing Co.
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Post by Tsyroc »

Geez, they have Halon systems inside the tanks?Are they in the crew compartment? That stuff can kill a person but I guess it's a trade-off between the risks of using Halon or using CO2 which could also kill people and cause frost damage.

The symptoms of Halon poisoning are very similar to a heart attack.
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Post by Vympel »

Posted in the HAB, along with photos of the penetration in question. Whatever it was, the RPG-7 was ruled out, which I would assue removes the grenades it fires from the equation. Regardless, a good PG-7VL (93mm) or PG-7VR (105mm- same as disposable RPG-27 for all intents and purposes) can penetrate 600/750mm RHA- over double the original; the damage would've been much more severe if there was that much of a HEAT round penetrating the crew compartment. Regardless- there are dozens of relatively mundane monoblock HEAT weapons that aren't RPGs that could've been responsible for it- a stolen AT4, for instance, or a relatively old ATGM.

Still, it is a 'knock out' for all intents and purposes, so something to be worried about.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

HAB?
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Post by Shinova »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:HAB?
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Post by Vympel »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:HAB?
*points to his signature*
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Post by Vympel »

Oh, interesting point I heard off another forum- when they returned the next day, the entire area had been sanitized (by enemy forces)- including the .50 calibre shell casings fired by the Tank Commander at the enemy.
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Post by Shinova »

Vympel wrote:Oh, interesting point I heard off another forum- when they returned the next day, the entire area had been sanitized (by enemy forces)- including the .50 calibre shell casings fired by the Tank Commander at the enemy.
Interesting. Does anyone think that maybe a third party is in Iraq?
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Post by Vympel »

Shinova wrote:Interesting. Does anyone think that maybe a third party is in Iraq?
I think there's fourth and fifth parties too- the guerilla forces probably include

- Ba'athists
- PO'd Iraqis (mostly Sunni, some Shi'a)
- Islamic fundies of all kinds
- Foreigners out to play in the Jihad World Cup

etc.

Mayhap the foreigners are bringing in more credible weapons- it's easy to get 'spoiled' on 40-year old tech barely capable of penetrating even your medium armored vehicles- if they go off at all because the fuses are so old. But the penetration in question surely wasn't any current generation RPG weapon, most certainly.
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Post by Shinova »

I was thinking third party as in another major country, like Russia or something.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Shinova wrote:I was thinking third party as in another major country, like Russia or something.
Russia isn't stupid enough to attack the US with its own people. If they were testing a weapon they would undoubtedly use a patsy (even if an exceptionally well trained one) to do it.
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Post by Vympel »

Shinova wrote:I was thinking third party as in another major country, like Russia or something.
A Russian in Iraq would stick out like a ... Russian in Iraq. Not to mention the last thing you'd want is for some guy to kill one of your people, or one of the people you've given arms to, and they find one of your products on them (the new generation RPG rounds and the new RPGs themselves are far more rare, outside of the Russian Army that is, where they're standard, than the standard 1960s ones).
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Post by EmperorMing »

So someone is doing weapons testing agianst US forces? Possible scenario?
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Post by Vympel »

EmperorMing wrote:So someone is doing weapons testing agianst US forces? Possible scenario?
I doubt it. Someone had something that's not normally used and fired it during a fight- I wouldn't test any of my weapons by giving them to Iraqis, that's for sure.

For all we know, it could've been a stolen M136 (US standard LAW aka Bofors AT4).
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Post by EmperorMing »

"Not normally used"? It *almost* sounds like weapons testing.

I guess we will have to wait for developements then. :wink:
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Post by Shinova »

Why would they clean up the place?
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Post by Vympel »

Shinova wrote:Why would they clean up the place?
The Viet Cong stripped crashed US helicopters down to bare bones- scrap metal, I suspect. And you don't want to leave any weapons behind if you lost anyone.
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Post by Howedar »

Bumped to the top since silly Vymple didn't put a link in the locked thread.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Are they keeping a tally on vehicle losses in Iraq? Especially the soft skinned vehicles?
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Post by Darth Wong »

This mystery penetrator was obviously the Penis of Allah.
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Post by Tsyroc »

Darth Wong wrote:This mystery penetrator was obviously the Penis of Allah.
I thought he was a eunic? :D
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Post by Darth Wong »

Tsyroc wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This mystery penetrator was obviously the Penis of Allah.
I thought he was a eunic? :D
Precisely. The Penis of Allah was obviously cut off, preserved for just such an occasion, and then fired from a new weapon which we shall henceforth call the ATGP (anti-tank guided penis).
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Post by HemlockGrey »

...but how would they retrieve it for further use?




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Post by Darth Wong »

HemlockGrey wrote:...but how would they retrieve it for further use?
It is a magical penis which would never allow itself to remain in the hands of infidels for long. Much like the One Ring, it will eventually return to its owner. Either that, or it will convert whoever possesses it to Islam. Better keep a close eye on that tank crew.
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Post by Vympel »

What in the living fuck is wrong with the title of this thread? I've tried to fix it and it continuiously comes up with that &quote crap tacked on ... argh!

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