Imperial Star Destroyer or Imperator class Star Destroyer ?

[The Dark]

In The Bacta War, it was revealed that one Super Star Destroyer named HIMS Executor was subsequently renamed Lusankya.

Nitpick: This was done as counter-intelligence, to confuse the Rebels and allow the Lusankya to be hidden after construction. They built two ships named Executor (suggesting the names were chosen before construction) and renamed one after construction.

A state is a political creature, Vympel, and when a state's political constitution is fundamentally altered, it becomes a different state. You stated on Sunday, October 26, at 0435 (GMT), that "the Republic and the Empire are hardly different polities" and that they are "the same entity, with mere aesthetic differences"; this statement is false. While the Empire dominates the same territory and includes the same member states as did the Republic, they are quite clearly different political entities (e.g., the one is a federative republic, the other a monarchy).

Yet we have a historical analogy in Rome. The Roman Republic became the Roman Empire, yet few argue that the two are "different political entities"; it was an evolution from one form of government to the other.

(1.) Dr. Saxton has never indicated that he intended to establish a pattern of names; this is purely an assumption on your part. This is the fallacy of audiatur et altera pars.

True. He merely classifies it as "an irrational description betraying an ignorant misinterpretation and misapplication of naval nomenclature...culpable neglect...a noxious weed propagating in the recent literature...[a]common but unsupportable term."

(3.) You are suggesting that the canonical name "Imperial-class" is inconsistent with the names established by the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections despite the fact that the former was used in the Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections in 1998 and the latter were published in 2002; it is the latter names that are inconsistent with the former, not vice versa.

The Mandel blueprints were before the WEG source material that is the earliest source of the Imperial class. Thus, that latter name is inconsistent with the former source material, which contains scaling errors identical in proportion to those of the Death Star blueprints of the same time. This forces the following possibilities:

1. There is a scaling error in the drawings, and they do represent the ship classes (ISD and DSI) that they purport to represent. The drawings are correct, but the scale is incorrect (and all ship blueprints of that era need to be multiplied by ~1.25).

2. The blueprints represent other classes of ship, meaning there is the Imperial, the Imperator, and two different Death Star I classes, with identical names and capabilities and different sizes.

3. For some unfathomable reason, the DSI blueprints should be scaled up, but the ISD blueprints should be considered a different class entirely.

[CmdrWilkens]

A state is a political creature, Vympel, and when a state's political constitution is fundamentally altered, it becomes a different state. You stated on Sunday, October 26, at 0435 (GMT), that "the Republic and the Empire are hardly different polities" and that they are "the same entity, with mere aesthetic differences"; this statement is false. While the Empire dominates the same territory and includes the same member states as did the Republic, they are quite clearly different political entities (e.g., the one is a federative republic, the other a monarchy).

Yet we have a historical analogy in Rome. The Roman Republic became the Roman Empire, yet few argue that the two are "different political entities"; it was an evolution from one form of government to the other.

Plenty of people argue that they were highly different political entities. Why do you think entire Master and Doctoral thesis are devoted to the sole subject of the change in Roman government between the last days of the Republic and the Monarchy ushered in by Gaius Julius Caesar? There is a reason why we distinguish between the two periods and governments with distinct names. By comparison take Britain which essentially evolved into a Constitutional Monarchy and thence onwards to a Republican government. In all of this it has always been the British (or Royal) government. There has never been a distinction between the years of elected rule and years of monarcharial rule by so distinct a difference as is marked in Rome.

Nonenetheless, and historical discussion aside, the changes wrought in the operation of the Galactic Governing apparati by Palpatine's assumption of power is enoguh to classify the two governments as seperate. In the elast we have Tarkin's statement that "the last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." Hardly sounds like the kind of time when you can link the two governemtns by anything other than territory ruled.

(1.) Dr. Saxton has never indicated that he intended to establish a pattern of names; this is purely an assumption on your part. This is the fallacy of audiatur et altera pars.

True. He merely classifies it as "an irrational description betraying an ignorant misinterpretation and misapplication of naval nomenclature...culpable neglect...a noxious weed propagating in the recent literature...[a]common but unsupportable term."

Which, nonetheless, does nothing to change the canonicity of the class name.

(3.) You are suggesting that the canonical name "Imperial-class" is inconsistent with the names established by the Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections despite the fact that the former was used in the Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections in 1998 and the latter were published in 2002; it is the latter names that are inconsistent with the former, not vice versa.

The Mandel blueprints were before the WEG source material that is the earliest source of the Imperial class. Thus, that latter name is inconsistent with the former source material, which contains scaling errors identical in proportion to those of the Death Star blueprints of the same time. This forces the following possibilities:

1. There is a scaling error in the drawings, and they do represent the ship classes (ISD and DSI) that they purport to represent. The drawings are correct, but the scale is incorrect (and all ship blueprints of that era need to be multiplied by ~1.25).

2. The blueprints represent other classes of ship, meaning there is the Imperial, the Imperator, and two different Death Star I classes, with identical names and capabilities and different sizes.

3. For some unfathomable reason, the DSI blueprints should be scaled up, but the ISD blueprints should be considered a different class entirely.

Here are several problems with your line of logic.

1) The Imperial-class designation is given by a canon publication so short of the movies, novels, or radio plays associated with EpIII saying something to the contrary there is no source capable of stating the 1600m long vessels have any other class name.

2) Mandel himself said the works were flights of fancy which means that while they are based on the material in the SW unvierse they do not neccessarily conform. One might view them as preliminary sketches, or concept drawings given that statement. If weassume that they represent an actual ship then the onus would be for someone else to show why the class name in an official publication for a vessel not of the 1600m length is the "true" name of a class whose name is defined in a canon publicaiton as "Imperial."

3) I'm rather interested in knowing where these Mandel DS1 blueprints are as I have never seen them.

[Illuminatus Primus]

2) Mandel himself said the works were flights of fancy which means that while they are based on the material in the SW unvierse they do not neccessarily conform. One might view them as preliminary sketches, or concept drawings given that statement. If weassume that they represent an actual ship then the onus would be for someone else to show why the class name in an official publication for a vessel not of the 1600m length is the "true" name of a class whose name is defined in a canon publicaiton as "Imperial."

This argument is flawed. They are legal Star Wars publications, and not marked Infinities. Mandel's opinion is irrelevent to LFL policy.

3) I'm rather interested in knowing where these Mandel DS1 blueprints are as I have never seen them.

Saxton has them on his site.

[AniThyng]

according to those very same Death Star blueprints...the ratio of Star Destroyers to battleships and heavy cruisers [note the proper noun implied in STar Destroyer as opposed to the lowercase noun battleship] is what would expect if SD's were truly the giants of the fleet.

how do you reconcile this?

[Vympel]

according to those very same Death Star blueprints...the ratio of Star Destroyers to battleships and heavy cruisers [note the proper noun implied in STar Destroyer as opposed to the lowercase noun battleship] is what would expect if SD's were truly the giants of the fleet.

how do you reconcile this?

Why must that be so? Look, for example, at the number of light cruisers (17) compared to heavy cruisers (39).

[AniThyng]

i take back the proper noun thing. that was more to do with other EU usage. my bad.


and there is no capital ship class below the light cruisers present...

6
30
17

still rather unbalanced and top heavy, 6 destroyers to 30 battleships?

what kind of battleships? SSD scale ships?

[Vympel]

i take back the proper noun thing. that was more to do with other EU usage. my bad.


and there is no capital ship class below the light cruisers present...

6
30
17

still rather unbalanced and top heavy, 6 destroyers to 30 battleships?

what kind of battleships? SSD scale ships?

Could be anything really- there's a host of unidentified ships seen in various comics especially.

[CmdrWilkens]

2) Mandel himself said the works were flights of fancy which means that while they are based on the material in the SW unvierse they do not neccessarily conform. One might view them as preliminary sketches, or concept drawings given that statement. If weassume that they represent an actual ship then the onus would be for someone else to show why the class name in an official publication for a vessel not of the 1600m length is the "true" name of a class whose name is defined in a canon publicaiton as "Imperial."

This argument is flawed. They are legal Star Wars publications, and not marked Infinities. Mandel's opinion is irrelevent to LFL policy.

Everyone does realize that the Infinities label had not yet been created at the time of the publication?

3) I'm rather interested in knowing where these Mandel DS1 blueprints are as I have never seen them.

Saxton has them on his site.

Thank you I'll go check them out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

2) Mandel himself said the works were flights of fancy which means that while they are based on the material in the SW unvierse they do not neccessarily conform. One might view them as preliminary sketches, or concept drawings given that statement. If weassume that they represent an actual ship then the onus would be for someone else to show why the class name in an official publication for a vessel not of the 1600m length is the "true" name of a class whose name is defined in a canon publicaiton as "Imperial."

This argument is flawed. They are legal Star Wars publications, and not marked Infinities. Mandel's opinion is irrelevent to LFL policy.

Everyone does realize that the Infinities label had not yet been created at the time of the publication?

It does not matter. The canon policy specifically indicates that "those not considered canon are labeled Infinities or contained in Star Wars Tales (of which the whole series is Infinities). Everything else is canon."

Quite frankly, since Hoth Stuff could be declared apocryphal, and since LFL literally owns the Star Wars Saga, they could declare it apocryphal retroactively if so they desired. They haven't, and therefore they are canonical. No amount of pissing and moaning and appealing to irrelevent authorities will change that.

[CmdrWilkens]

This argument is flawed. They are legal Star Wars publications, and not marked Infinities. Mandel's opinion is irrelevent to LFL policy.

Everyone does realize that the Infinities label had not yet been created at the time of the publication?

It does not matter. The canon policy specifically indicates that "those not considered canon are labeled Infinities or contained in Star Wars Tales (of which the whole series is Infinities). Everything else is canon."

Quite frankly, since Hoth Stuff could be declared apocryphal, and since LFL literally owns the Star Wars Saga, they could declare it apocryphal retroactively if so they desired. They haven't, and therefore they are canonical. No amount of pissing and moaning and appealing to irrelevent authorities will change that.

Which means that all you are left with is the design for a vessel which is the wrong size, sporting the wrong weapons, with stuff in the wrong place for it to be one of the vessels seen onscreen.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Which means that all you are left with is the design for a vessel which is the wrong size, sporting the wrong weapons, with stuff in the wrong place for it to be one of the vessels seen onscreen.

Alright, I'm starting to really get annoyed with people who launch red herrings attacks on an issue I'm not even arguing.

My rebuttal solely challenged your false assertion that the Mandel blueprints are not official. They undoubtably are. You should concede, and if you had noted I already have on the "Imperator-class", then you wouldn't be harping about this non-issue with regards to the actual argument I made.

[vakundok]

Everyone does realize that the Infinities label had not yet been created at the time of the publication?

It does not matter. The canon policy specifically indicates that "those not considered canon are labeled Infinities or contained in Star Wars Tales (of which the whole series is Infinities). Everything else is canon."

Excuse me, but I think it does not apply to earlier, reworked versions of things. For example, in an earlier draft Owen bought the droids from Luke's academy savings. Is it canon? Also, in an earlier draft an ion cannon (described as being the same type as the one on Hoth) was (and as such, could be) set up within hours. Is it a screenplay level canon fact? In earlier movies, the laser swords casted shadows under some conditions. Is it canon that they can cast shadows under special conditions?

Please, someone clarify this: The destroyer in the Mandel blueprints carried no ground troops. (EDIT: I mean ground vehicles.) That part of it is automatically overriden by newer materials but the class name cannot be (overriden by the very same materials)?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The above above are interesting parts of history, but I don't see why they can't be true. AFAIK, these didn't trample on anything, so as long as they have SOME STANDING at all, it is part of the SW universe. I praise the rapidity of SW universe setup techniques (that cannon was HUGE,) and it could neatly explain why Beru was so reluctant to let Luke go into the Academy (the money had been consumed, as well as depicting how poor the family really is as a whole.) As for the sword shadows, it is part of the dynamics of a lightsaber and any complete lightsaber theory may well have to include them.

There were many parts of the Mandel destroyer that had been over-ridden by newer materials, most spectacularly the length. On the other hand, expansion compared to early blueprints is hardly a new thing, and had been done most famously to the Death Star I (67km versus 120km official and about 160km canon measurement,) and size determines weapons and troop outfit. So "Saxtonites" (and I'm lumping myself in as a Saxtonite) feel the changes do not totally invalidate the blueprint's obvious reference target and thus its name.

On the other hand, regardless of the current canon level of Imperial-class (Yes, I know it is canon,) it is a brainbug, an increasing distortion over time. Also, one may notice while Imperator actually existed as a known ship (AFAIK it had a fair combat record by Imperial warship standards - no Imperial warship is allowed to have the excellent combat record of NR warships ) and Imperial never showed up if it existed. It may not have been a real ship at all.

My current conclusion is that Imperator IS the first ship of class, and it could be used as the class name using Terran convention, but it is a much, much more common practice to call them Imperial-class. It might sound wierd, but even today I don't know why some people call a Brit Kent-class CA a "County" - I know they are named after Brit counties, but it is still wierd.

[Chris OFarrell]

On the other hand, regardless of the current canon level of Imperial-class (Yes, I know it is canon,) it is a brainbug, an increasing distortion over time. Also, one may notice while Imperator actually existed as a known ship (AFAIK it had a fair combat record by Imperial warship standards - no Imperial warship is allowed to have the excellent combat record of NR warships ) and Imperial never showed up if it existed. It may not have been a real ship at all.

Just to respond to this.
There are twenty five thousand Imperial class Star Destroyers at the LEAST. The fact that we have not seen Imperial hardly proves anything either way about when Imperator was built and if it was the first ship of the ISD class.

Also, Imperator turned up later in Tie Fighter as an ISD under Zarins command, in the mission where your ISD attacks a supply platform guarded by a Modified Frigate flotila. Imperator was one of the two ISD's to come to the platforms rescue.

Of course I only remember this cause I reinstalled TIE on an old box of mine a few months back and played it through. I used to find that mission horribly hard. I blitzed it this time, killing three Modified frigates, one platform, one interdictor, two enemy ISD's (including Imperator) and a dozen Tie Defenders and God only knows how many supply craft. I even saved MY ISD command ship which was supposed to Die, it jumped out with 40% shields intact.

The damn campaign though said it was a horrible loss for the Empire. Stupid preset mission debreifings


Oh and on the Imperials not being allowed to have the combat records of NR ships, one word. Chimaera.

[vakundok]

Oh boy! My answer is lost to the daily backup.

The above above are interesting parts of history, but I don't see why they can't be true. AFAIK, these didn't trample on anything, so as long as they have SOME STANDING at all, it is part of the SW universe. I praise the rapidity of SW universe setup techniques (that cannon was HUGE,) and it could neatly explain why Beru was so reluctant to let Luke go into the Academy (the money had been consumed, as well as depicting how poor the family really is as a whole.) As for the sword shadows, it is part of the dynamics of a lightsaber and any complete lightsaber theory may well have to include them.

I agree on the savings it can be canon without much problem. However the question was whether they were automatically canon, since they did not have the 'Infinite' logo and did not directly contradict with the movies. The set-up time of the ion cannon or the stormtroopers having a lightsaber in their utility belts are maybe better examples. 'have SOME STANDING' is not an exact category especiallly if it is up to the lowest level fans to decide about it.

There were many parts of the Mandel destroyer that had been over-ridden by newer materials, most spectacularly the length. On the other hand, expansion compared to early blueprints is hardly a new thing, and had been done most famously to the Death Star I (67km versus 120km official and about 160km canon measurement,) and size determines weapons and troop outfit.

It is not that easy. The Imperial is a multi purpose ship whereas the Imperator is a pure naval vessel with minimal security / boarding troops. So that difference changes the function of the vessel which is (in my opinion) far more important than the size, engines or weaponry numbers.

So "Saxtonites" (and I'm lumping myself in as a Saxtonite) feel the changes do not totally invalidate the blueprint's obvious reference target and thus its name.

It is OK, but if you even question a higher level material based on a lower level material (or on the lowest level fan feelings), you will throw out the (importance levels set in the) canon policy and the analyzing method of going top to bottom.

On the other hand, regardless of the current canon level of Imperial-class (Yes, I know it is canon,) it is a brainbug, an increasing distortion over time. Also, one may notice while Imperator actually existed as a known ship (AFAIK it had a fair combat record by Imperial warship standards - no Imperial warship is allowed to have the excellent combat record of NR warships ) and Imperial never showed up if it existed. It may not have been a real ship at all.

My current conclusion is that Imperator IS the first ship of class, and it could be used as the class name using Terran convention, but it is a much, much more common practice to call them Imperial-class. It might sound wierd, but even today I don't know why some people call a Brit Kent-class CA a "County" - I know they are named after Brit counties, but it is still wierd.

I have to disagree.
1, Naming the class of a beginning imperial era as 'Imperial' is not that stupid especially if the ship is designed and destined to be the symbol of that era.
2, As you wrote, it (naming the class after the first ship and the names within a class are usually logical and similar) is a terran convention at most. If the SWU does not apply that it will cause only a terran brainbug, but will not cause any problems to an SWU being.
3, I see no reason why the class names of an assault transport, a cruiser/destroyer and a command flagship would need to be similar. (Yes, Los Angeles and Ohio are similar, but Nimitz and Guam are not and they do not cause any brainbug.)
4, Actually it is not even the same as the terran convention. The 'Saxtonites' suggest that it is a class naming convention used exclusively on specific products (not on the Aethersprite or the LAAT) of a specific designer in a specific time period (later Vigilance, Eclipse and such).

[Vympel]

Also, Imperator turned up later in Tie Fighter as an ISD under Zarins command, in the mission where your ISD attacks a supply platform guarded by a Modified Frigate flotila. Imperator was one of the two ISD's to come to the platforms rescue.

Of course I only remember this cause I reinstalled TIE on an old box of mine a few months back and played it through. I used to find that mission horribly hard. I blitzed it this time, killing three Modified frigates, one platform, one interdictor, two enemy ISD's (including Imperator) and a dozen Tie Defenders and God only knows how many supply craft. I even saved MY ISD command ship which was supposed to Die, it jumped out with 40% shields intact.

The Courageous, I remember- as I recall, the Captain, Kuuztin, paid for it with his life- your actions saved you from a similar fate.

The damn campaign though said it was a horrible loss for the Empire. Stupid preset mission debreifings

Oh and on the Imperials not being allowed to have the combat records of NR ships, one word. Chimaera.

Is that ship STILL around?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

True, but certainly the confirmed existence beats an unconfirmed existence. Appealing to the unconfirmed is like saying somewhere in this huge universe, the Invisible Pink Unicorn (I forgot exactly how that joke went) gone.

In any case, I think I've already agreed it IS possible for it to be commonly called the Imperial-class, whether Imperator was the first ship or not.

As for Chimaera, it had its moments, and its fate was certainly a lot better than the average SD introduced (most of which DIED,) but it was hardly sterling. Just being beaten at Endor is an unerasable black mark considering that battle's importance, don't you think?

[Sharp-kun]

The Courageous, I remember- as I recall, the Captain, Kuuztin, paid for it with his life- your actions saved you from a similar fate.

The damn campaign though said it was a horrible loss for the Empire. Stupid preset mission debreifings

Oh and on the Imperials not being allowed to have the combat records of NR ships, one word. Chimaera.

Is that ship STILL around?

Yep. I'm surprised we haven't seen the Missile Boat in any EU bookd.

[2000AD]

I may have missed something but why is it so important if it's Imperial or Imperator?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nihonjin-class Battleships sound lousy. For the same reason, Imperial-class is wierd to say the least.

Yes, we are accepting reality, kind of. But we don't have to like it.

[Vympel]

I may have missed something but why is it so important if it's Imperial or Imperator?

To some (like myself) it's an embarassing, annoying brain bug that makes Wars look stupid.

[Vympel]

Yep. I'm surprised we haven't seen the Missile Boat in any EU bookd.

I suppose any appearnace by the remaing prototypes would be in the form of some sort of 'Chase the Red Baron' type X-Wing book or something ... with a predictable ending of victory of the New Republic etc etc

[Chris OFarrell]

The Courageous, I remember- as I recall, the Captain, Kuuztin, paid for it with his life- your actions saved you from a similar fate.

True. But I dare to say that even if Stele hadn't performed that well, the shear amount of crap he's done for the Emperor/Empire in the past would warrent him not being shot simply because his supperior officer launched a fucked up raid on bad intel...

Is that ship STILL around?

Oh yeah. She is currently in Dry Dock though. She carried Pelleons flag up until the Battle of Bastion and she got the utter s#*t kicked out of her (though she was on the last ISD's to jump out of there). Pelleon was evacuated after the bridge was ramed, badly injured, his Crew put #1 priority on saving his life. Which realy speaks well for how the troops love him as a leader compared to Vader....But the ship a day later jumped into Yaga Minor, hyperdrive had been badly damaged.

[Chris OFarrell]

Yep. I'm surprised we haven't seen the Missile Boat in any EU bookd.

I suppose any appearnace by the remaing prototypes would be in the form of some sort of 'Chase the Red Baron' type X-Wing book or something ... with a predictable ending of victory of the New Republic etc etc

I dobut the missile boat survived the Zarin ordeal and chaos of the Emperors death / warlord period.

On a brighter note, the Imperial Remaint has started to continue production of and deployment of the Tie Defender as of the latest NJO at least.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Oh boy! My answer is lost to the daily backup.
I agree on the savings it can be canon without much problem. However the question was whether they were automatically canon, since they did not have the 'Infinite' logo and did not directly contradict with the movies. The set-up time of the ion cannon or the stormtroopers having a lightsaber in their utility belts are maybe better examples. 'have SOME STANDING' is not an exact category especiallly if it is up to the lowest level fans to decide about it.

Personally, I think in terms of "accepted" in this case and "unaccepted." Only when there's a hierchary clash do I even remember the hierchary. And never reply at or near 1000GMT (6PM my time at +8) - its asking for trouble.

It is not that easy. The Imperial is a multi purpose ship whereas the Imperator is a pure naval vessel with minimal security / boarding troops. So that difference changes the function of the vessel which is (in my opinion) far more important than the size, engines or weaponry numbers.

I think the extra stuff is more a product of the new length - there's room, might as well add some multi-role capability.

It is OK, but if you even question a higher level material based on a lower level material (or on the lowest level fan feelings), you will throw out the (importance levels set in the) canon policy and the analyzing method of going top to bottom.

Actually, no one is actually questioning the higher level material. I agreed most people in the SW galaxy termed the class as Imperial, remember? I think not even the most fanatic Saxtonite would try to defy this one. In other words, we nod and we try to get around it, which is acceptable as long as the Canon Seal is not 100% (which is why Hobbie lives.) Whether that corresponds to Terran convention. Well, it is one step later...

I have to disagree.
1, Naming the class of a beginning imperial era as 'Imperial' is not that stupid especially if the ship is designed and destined to be the symbol of that era.

There are lots of better things to call it, like Empire. I'm afraid our tastes don't correspond.

2, As you wrote, it (naming the class after the first ship and the names within a class are usually logical and similar) is a terran convention at most. If the SWU does not apply that it will cause only a terran brainbug, but will not cause any problems to an SWU being.

SODwise, you could be correct. UN-SODwise, we are pretty sure how this one came about. As I said, it is like Voyager episodes - we really know that a lot of the stuff is really due to writer idiocy rather than intelligent and we complain anyway even while trying to rationalize their idiocy.

3, I see no reason why the class names of an assault transport, a cruiser/destroyer and a command flagship would need to be similar. (Yes, Los Angeles and Ohio are similar, but Nimitz and Guam are not and they do not cause any brainbug.)

Actually, our main argument is closer to the need for ships to match their classes with their nameships, and that it was originally called the Imperator-class, then the generic Imperial Star Destroyer, then some moron started translating it into Imperial-CLASS Star Destroyer, and everyone followed suite. The nameship = class name seems to be a worldwide Terran thing. The fact that it was a tradition until the Sovereign and Eclipse were build to call large ships with names ending with "-or" is just icing on the cake.

Imperial is very stupid as a ship name. Even if you can chow down a ship called America and one (never built) called Sovietsky Soyuz, can you choke down a ship called American or Nihonjin (Japanese) or Zhongguoren (Chinese)?

Try saying "The Imperial Star Destroyer Imperial conducted a Base Delta Zero today." Wierd, no?

But then, County is not that good as a ship name, yet as a designator for a class, it is adequate. Which is why I'm willing to accept Imperial as such a slapper.
----------
Now that I'm done ranting non-SODwise, let's do SODwise, since it is canon that most people call it Imperial. No doubt, of course, that even if it ultimately became the "Imperator-class" on the canon level, the "Imperial-class" designator is too deeply ingrained. It'd stay on as the far more common slang, or alternate name.

I think it is a matter of translation from the original Basic. Some translators translate closer to the language, and some translate more to their own protocols. Saxtonites want them to translate more to our protocols - the SW authors obviously think otherwise.

A very common Terran example comes in translating Russkie ranks. You see a lot of novels retaining the "Captain 1st Rank --> Captain Lieutenant" Rank Structure that is the true Russian structure (check a Russian transliteration.) Then you see a lot of novels that will convert it into "Captain --> Lieutenant Commander" and "Captain Lieutenant" seems to quietly disappear. Just a matter of approach, though I prefer the former in this case.

Going overboard might be when a particular author decided that because the Chinese language does not really differentiate between Naval Captain and Army Colonel (both of them are shangxiao,) he went right out and wrote "Colonel" for a Chinese captain's rank (of course, his ship was later destroyed by the Americans.) The wierd thing is, IIRC Chinese Generals and Admirals also have one designator, and he doesn't integrate them on that level. Anyway, back to our topic.

It just goes right along with our wishes for ranks to be translated into more "proper" English. A common subject of much derision is the rank Commander, which is often placed between Colonel and General. To be absolutely fair and objective, for all we know, the original word for the rank might be like "Shireikan" (Japanese Romaji: literally "Commander") and the author (which SODwise is supposed to be a mere translator) might have struggled for a long time before deciding to translate it literally. A true Saxtonite, of course, does not like this, automatically associating the word with Naval Commanders and Brit Wing Commanders