What is the Miranda-class designation and role?

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Patrick Ogaard
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Cpt_Frank wrote:Yes, but nonetheless the Reliant kicked the E's ass, and with 2x number of launchers and the huge phasers that's no surprise.
Also very remarkable:
Reliant took a direct hit to that warp drive dome behind the roll bar.
Imagine such a crucial component being hit with a GCS! :shock:
Hah! A GCS would have no problem with that. The Reliant cruises in close to an unshielded GCS, fires on the primary hull, blasts through to the vicinity of the warp core, and the GCS wins by default:

The colossal explosion of the GCS warp core rips the Reliant to pieces, foiling the plans of the evil supermen! Roll closing credits.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Yes, that was pretty much what I thought too.
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Post by Stravo »

As for their apparent fragility in DS9, that seems to be a problem with even the largest of combat vessels in DS9. Small numbers of hits at the beginning of a battle, at a time when shields should have been at 100%, were sufficient to cause massive structural damage to Warbirds, Galaxies and pretty much any other big ship type shown in visuals. The allied attack to retake the Chintoka (sp?) system is the prime example. The visuals did make the Defiant look ever so much tougher, though.
I've had a theory that I thought out to explain this sudden fragiltiy of ships - not just federation but ALL trek ships in DS9 seem to take a few hitrs and their out of the picture...compare to just as recent as "Yesterday's Enterprise" when the E-D takes on three Klingon BOPs and they exchange fire for more than 5 minutes, continous fire and the shields slowly get battered down. Then look at episodes like Sacrifice of Angels where Fed ships take a few hits and they explode, or a Galor class cruiser's shields fail on the first strike of a Galaxy class' phasers.

Throughout military history it seems that there are two periods of ascendency, defensive tech and offensive tech. There are stretches when defenmsive technology is in ascendence and it takes a lot to overcome this advantage : Medieval knights were masters of the battle field for centuries, as the plate mail got heavier it got to the point where theywere simply invulnerable. Ascedncy of defensive techonology ie. armor.

Trek would have such a period during the TOS and early movie period, when shields are incredibly powerful and we have no exploding console syndrome or hull breaches, it takes ALOT of punishment to bring a ship's shields down. It would also explain such odd weapon development like the Romulan plasma torp, recognizing that they needed to find a way to bring down Fed shields quickly they devised these weapons, low rate of fire, energy intensive, but it overcame Fed shields easily.

Then we get into the assendency of offensive weapons: For us, that would be the advent of gunpowder and Napoleonic warfare where no body armor is used and the gun rules the battle field.

Here I would place DS9 era tech. The weapons systems of the new generation of ships is so powerful that the new standard shields simply cannot repel that kind of firepower, allowing for the quick kills we see on DS9.

Then there are odd periods of equilibrium where defensive and offensive tech are sort of at a par, MAYBE we can say now with the advent of kevlar that defensive tech is catching up with the gun....

For ST that would be TNG era, where the weapons are more lethal but the defensive systems are able to keep up.

Anyway, my long winded idea on why starships are blowing up left and right as if shields no longer exist on DS9.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

That's actually the only plausible explanation. It makes particular sense when one considers that, in all likelihood, the Dominion's shield-piercing energy weapon concepts were adopted by all parties involved in the Dominion War. Even though the Federation managed to devise a counter to the Dominion's shield-piercing polaron beams, the counter was likely not perfect. And a contest between a weapon using the polaron technobabble and the shields modified to counter them may not favor the shields as much as before the polaron effect was introduced.

Congrats. So you don't just write good fanfics. You're making me feel all inadequate. :D
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Post by Howedar »

Muad'Dib wrote:In defence of Kirk in TWOK i would point out that the Enterprise was crewed by mainly caddets in training and that Kahn and his crew were bred to fight a war using any means neccessary. More to the point how was Kahn able to pin point the week point of the Constitution class. He repeatedly targeted the Engineering section.
Common sense would tell him that the engineering section was a good target, as the deflector, nacelles, and torpedo launchers are all clustered very closely, and all of these (save maybe the launchers) would be high-energy systems.
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Re: Reliant crew Reliable Incompetent

Post by Doomriser »

Patrick Degan wrote:The failure of the crew of the Reliant to notice the missing sixth planet of Ceti Alpha goes beyond their being a military crew. After all, we're not talking about a far distant star system. Ceti Alpha, or Menkar as it is otherwise known in the Bayer Catalogue, is only 54 light years from Earth —in the neighbourhood, so to speak. The system was certainly surveyed once before and registered at least six planets, and somebody should have put that in the records at some point. What kind of a crew enters into a known star system well within Federation space which is supposed to have a certain number of planets and not notice that one of them is missing!

Even a military crew should be able to count planets. Unless maybe they're all Marines (Navy joke —no offense intended).
Menkar is only 54 LY from Earth? IIRC, the Mutura Nebula could be reached by sublight from Ceti Alpha 6 or whatever.

In ST:3, a Klingon BOP is able to sneak up to ~54 LY from Earth? And the only ship Starfleet is able to put into the 'restricted' system is a science vessel?
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Post by Doomriser »

I agree with the general opinion on this thread, that the Miranda started off as a cruiser of some sort and was repeatedly downgraded. When I brought this up on ASVS, the idea was criticized because ships tend to maintain their original designation even in the face of obsolesence. But we do know that there were new builds of Mirandas. So they could have been purpose-built as frigates, destroyers, and corvettes as opposed to cruisers (as they would have been too small by TNG.) Heck, maybe those ships even traded durability for maneuverability.

As for TOS/TNG weapons capabilities...the Miranda dates from the TOS movie era, in which a photon torpedo appeared to similar firepower to an artillery shell. By TNG, had this changed? Darth Wong's asteroid calculator allows for ~12 MT photon torpedoes based on Pegasus, but the estimate is generous because the asteroid was hollow among other factors. So TNG weapon power may have improved, but it doesn't really look that way, does it?

But what is inarguable IMNSHO is that the Reliant took a beating that the E-D NEVER would have. I mean, it was still intact even when Chekov's torpedo blew away the nacelle never mind the photon torpedo control room in proximity to the warp core - the E-D would have exploded if that happened. Maybe Khan's followers were doing damage control instead of running around trying to save family members...
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Post by Alyeska »

Doomriser wrote:I agree with the general opinion on this thread, that the Miranda started off as a cruiser of some sort and was repeatedly downgraded. When I brought this up on ASVS, the idea was criticized because ships tend to maintain their original designation even in the face of obsolesence. But we do know that there were new builds of Mirandas. So they could have been purpose-built as frigates, destroyers, and corvettes as opposed to cruisers (as they would have been too small by TNG.) Heck, maybe those ships even traded durability for maneuverability.

As for TOS/TNG weapons capabilities...the Miranda dates from the TOS movie era, in which a photon torpedo appeared to similar firepower to an artillery shell. By TNG, had this changed? Darth Wong's asteroid calculator allows for ~12 MT photon torpedoes based on Pegasus, but the estimate is generous because the asteroid was hollow among other factors. So TNG weapon power may have improved, but it doesn't really look that way, does it?

But what is inarguable IMNSHO is that the Reliant took a beating that the E-D NEVER would have. I mean, it was still intact even when Chekov's torpedo blew away the nacelle never mind the photon torpedo control room in proximity to the warp core - the E-D would have exploded if that happened. Maybe Khan's followers were doing damage control instead of running around trying to save family members...
Ahem, torpedoes were not the firepower of artillery shells.
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Post by Doomriser »

Alyeska wrote: Ahem, torpedoes were not the firepower of artillery shells.
Oh, I'm sorry. Were they lower?
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Post by Alyeska »

Doomriser wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Ahem, torpedoes were not the firepower of artillery shells.
Oh, I'm sorry. Were they lower?
:roll:
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Post by RayCav of ASVS »

Alyeska wrote:
Doomriser wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Ahem, torpedoes were not the firepower of artillery shells.
Oh, I'm sorry. Were they lower?
:roll:
Ah, sorry, our mistake, Alesyka. I guess we'll have to change that from "Artillery Shell" to "Revolutionary era musket" :twisted:
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Post by Alyeska »

Yeah, I guess you just like pulling firepower figures out of your ass, better then having to do any work.
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Post by RayCav of ASVS »

Alyeska wrote:Yeah, I guess you just like pulling firepower figures out of your ass, better then having to do any work.
Yeah, and I guess you left your sense of humor behind the moment you became a Trekkie :P
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Re: Reliant crew Reliable Incompetent

Post by Andras »

Doomriser wrote:
Menkar is only 54 LY from Earth? IIRC, the Mutura Nebula could be reached by sublight from Ceti Alpha 6 or whatever.

In ST:3, a Klingon BOP is able to sneak up to ~54 LY from Earth? And the only ship Starfleet is able to put into the 'restricted' system is a science vessel?
Ahh, the Mutara Nebula was a short distance from the Regula? Space station that was conducting the Genesis research, I have no idea how far CA-6 was from that
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Post by Dark Primus »

The TOS Enterprise was a battlecruiser, mentioned in ST 3.
Miranda probably up close serving either as heavy cruiser or medium cruiser. Light cruiser seems little to weak, but then again the Reliant took Enterprise by surprise in ST 2.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

The Miranda a protected cruiser?
During the TOS times it seemed more like the Connie was the battleship and the Miranda was the battlecruiser.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Cpt_Frank wrote:The Miranda a protected cruiser?
During the TOS times it seemed more like the Connie was the battleship and the Miranda was the battlecruiser.
or similar to a Dernitz class Battlecruiser(Pocket Battleship) the Nazi's built. AKA if anyone asks its a light cruiser but its really a slightly smaller battleship
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Dernitz? Never heard of that class.
I guess you mean the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee and Deutschland / Lützow[/quote]
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Post by Isolder74 »

Cpt_Frank wrote:Dernitz? Never heard of that class.
I guess you mean the pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee and Deutschland / Lützow
[/quote]

yes and the Dernitz was the first ship of that class
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

:?
Ships of the class:
Deutschland (1st of class, later Lützow)
Admiral Scheer
Admiral Graf Spee

Never heard of Dernitz.
Doenitz (Dönitz), though, was the leader of the German fleet durign WWII.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Cpt_Frank wrote::?
Ships of the class:
Deutschland (1st of class, later Lützow)
Admiral Scheer
Admiral Graf Spee

Never heard of Dernitz.
Doenitz (Dönitz), though, was the leader of the German fleet durign WWII.
it was sunk in the north sea while doing convoy raids it was only operation about 4 months
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

:shock: Should I have indeed missed out that one? Damn I must conduct research on that.... hopefully nobody has witnessed this shameful event....
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Post by Isolder74 »

the funny thig is that the Tirpitz(the Bismark's sister ship) never really got used cause after the brit's sank the Bismark Hitler got paraqnoid about lossong it so it got sunk while sitting in harbor.
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Post by Isolder74 »

no worries 'mate
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Yes just like the German Imperial High Seas Fleet in WWI only sat around in port most time after Battle of Jutland.
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