Fear of future job prospects

[Darth Wong]

I saw a report recently about how rapidly improving education in relatively low-cost low-wage labour markets such as India is potentially killing the future job market for relatively high-paid North American IT people (India in particular is churning out qualified IT personnel at a stunning rate). Just something to think about if you're considering a career in IT.

[Penguin]

well, let's face it, the happy days when one could become rich on some stupid website is over...
Now you even have to know something

The problem is that a lot of those guys out there in IT land is self-educated, and therefore will have a big trouble getting a job with so many people getteing "certificates" on their knowledge...

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I saw a report recently about how rapidly improving education in relatively low-cost low-wage labour markets such as India is potentially killing the future job market for relatively high-paid North American IT people (India in particular is churning out qualified IT personnel at a stunning rate). Just something to think about if you're considering a career in IT.

And our schools are helping put them there. Yes, I remember my college days as an engineering student. At least a full eighth of the undergraduate courses seemed to be occupied by Indians . . . the sort that require student visas just to stay here and go back to India once they've graduated.

And the graduate and post-graduate computer and engineering disciplines are packed with Indians and Chinese. Almost nobody in the United States wants to pursue a masters or doctorate in those fields when they can make $40k - $60k a year with a bachelor's degree. Perhaps this will serve as yet another wake-up call. I know I'm planning on returning to complete my masters degree after a few more years in the field.

[aronkerkhof]

My advice is to find an industry and get an indepth knowledge of how its business works. That is what gives you a leg up on the talented guys from India, or still in India trying to remotely work on a project. Its hard enough getting a customer's requirements exactly right to deliver a good project without a language, cultural, and business understanding barrier between the techs and the end customer.

If you can understand a business, can communicate effectively, like what you do, and are relatively easy to get along with, you can make a killing in IT. But if you don't, you're probably going to get killed. I have nothing but respect for the guys I've met so far from India. They are smart, driven, willing to work insane hours, and hungry for opportunity.

[Stormbringer]

IT careers are largely a fad job. While we need a fair amount of them here in the States, the .com boom lead to to a lot of over-inflation of the market. Most IT jobs don't require some yuppie making 100grand a year and only the idiocy of the boom lead to the situation.

[AniThyng]

does computer & electronics engineering count as an "IT" field par se...?

[phongn]

does computer & electronics engineering count as an "IT" field par se...?

No, that's engineering. IT refers to things like database administration, network support, etc.

[Pu-239]

does computer & electronics engineering count as an "IT" field par se...?

No, that's engineering. IT refers to things like database administration, network support, etc.

Aren't engineering jobs somewhat threatened too?

[Utsanomiko]

Well, it's as I suspected, but it does specifically exaplain why every single Dell tech support person nowadays has a heavy Indian accent. My poor mother can barely understand a word they say.

[Lagmonster]

Well, it's as I suspected, but it does specifically exaplain why every single Dell tech support person nowadays has a heavy Indian accent. My poor mother can barely understand a word they say.

I was chatting with a sales rep just THREE HOURS ago, and it was with a woman named Sandhya Majji whose accent was so thick I considered breaking PC expectations and asking to speak to someone I could understand.

[Hamel]

I've read a CIO article on hidden costs and burdens of outsourcing.

Article: The True Costs of Offshore Outsourcing

Author: Stephanie Overby

Summary: Bargain-basement labor rates tell only a fraction of the story about offshore outsourcing costs. The truth is, no one saves 80 percent shipping IT work to India or any other country. Few can even say they save half that. What many execs leading the charge offshore fail to appreciate is that it takes years of effort and a huge up-front investment to arrive at even a modest level of savings. Vendor selection and initial travel costs add 1 percent to 10 percent to the real cost of a deal. It takes three months to a full year to hand the work over completely to an offshore partner and set up necessary network infrastructure, adding another 2 percent to 3 percent to total cost. Then there are costs from transition-related productivity slumps—on average, application development efficiency declines 20 percent during the first two years of a contract. Once the work is transitioned, the costs of ongoing management contribute another 6 percent to 10 percent above the contract cost.

There was a discussion on Freerepublic about this not too long ago. Comments ranged from "viva big business" to "Indian programmers have different and inferior approaches to programming and solving problems", all the way to Freeper-esque "omg it's the unions' fault!" (when unions have little or nothing to do with IT)

Businesses were big on hyping IT back in the 90s. They were the ones who paid HTML coders stupidly large wages then bitched about the overpriced labor when they realized that much of the IT boom was BS in the then-current form. Now businesses are going too far in the other direction, expecting massive savings and whatnot, which probably won't happen much of the time.

I was on the road to getting a network management degree, but had to put it on hiatus because I moved. Don't know why I should persue it, since American IT for all intents and purposes is in critical condition. Some are saying that engineering is heading down the same path, which is very unfortunate because engineering students usually go through academic hell to get those degrees.

Bottom line is: we're fucked. If we want to compete, we need to become the 3rd world. Hell, we could slash wages in half, eliminate most regulations, put 8 year olds to work in sweatshops and factories and they'd still take everything overseas.

[TrailerParkJawa]

There are many trends in the IT world depending on the job specifics. If you have a call center job, forget it. If it stays in the US it will be located in the lower cost States or overseas.

When I worked at SnapAppliance for a few months when my contract was over they sent the entire level 1 and 2 calls to South Carolina. I understand why, but it sucks to be living out here.

Remote management of desktops is allowing for lots of companies to leave a skeleton staff at any site and since many issuse can be taken care of by the NOC.

Finally, as more people grow up with computers there is less of a need for hand holding workers who are not familar with computers.

The market is flooded, you need a college degree (does not have to be technical) , certs, and 3-4 years job experience just to make 20 bucks an hour. You will probably be made a salaried employee and given a 50-60 hour a week workload while you will get paid for 40 hours.

[Crayz9000]

This is partly why I'm not going into IT/IS. The other part is because I'm just not terribly enthusiastic about databases and human relations, which are the main parts of IT/IS work.

I prefer more the engineering stuff... which is why I'm aiming for a double major in computer science (haven't specialized yet) and mathematics. I may even try triple-majoring in computer engineering, physics, or some other equally geeky subject if I'm feeling up to it.

And I'm certainly considering going for a Master's degree...

[Darth Wong]

3 possible solutions to this conundrum if you're a youngster:

• Go for a very high-end degree. Without experience, that high-end degree will help land you a job because the more esoteric the knowledge, the more difficult it is to export the work.
• Go for a complete bullshit occupation like "management consultant", in which your actual skills and productivity have absolutely nothing to do with your compensation, and you apply the same ruinous cookie-cutter strategy to every company you meet while pretending that it's a custom-tailored solution. Note that this only works if you surgically remove your conscience and acquire Olympic-level bullshit skills.
• Become a plumber. No matter what happens in the economy, people will always need to shit.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I work in IT because I like to help people which makes the coming years tougher since a lot of face-to-face IT work is going away. Hopefully I can find a roll for myself. Ive got two gigs lined up after my current one is over next week so it looks like companies are starting to hire again. At least least for contract work.

Even engineers are not safe now, it is so expensive in Silicon Valley than compared to other places those jobs are leaving too. Not nearly as much as IT work, but it is enough to make college kids think about something else.

[Alferd Packer]

3 possible solutions to this conundrum if you're a youngster:

• Go for a very high-end degree. Without experience, that high-end degree will help land you a job because the more esoteric the knowledge, the more difficult it is to export the work.
• Go for a complete bullshit occupation like "management consultant", in which your actual skills and productivity have absolutely nothing to do with your compensation, and you apply the same ruinous cookie-cutter strategy to every company you meet while pretending that it's a custom-tailored solution. Note that this only works if you surgically remove your conscience and acquire Olympic-level bullshit skills.
• Become a plumber. No matter what happens in the economy, people will always need to shit.

As a third-year CS major, I am now sooo glad I opted for the double major in German. Knowing two languages will probably let me land a semi-decent job, because, frankly, I have neither the ability or inclination to get a doctorate in computer science. Christ, outside of database stuff, I hate it.

Like I said, it's a damn good thing I'm competant in German. I could be a management consultant! AUF DEUTSCH!

And, failing all else, I DO have a nice plumber's crack. I mean, hell, skilled labor like plumbers make 70 bucks an hour plus parts. It's not a bad gig if you can get your foot in the door.

[Darth Wong]

Even engineers are not safe now, it is so expensive in Silicon Valley than compared to other places those jobs are leaving too. Not nearly as much as IT work, but it is enough to make college kids think about something else.

It depends on what kind of engineer you are. It's much harder to outsource civil engineering than computer engineering (and frankly, "computer engineering" is a misnomer anyway; most computer engineers are actually computer technicians; real engineering involves equations), because the buildings are being built here, and a civil engineer who cannot regularly visit the construction site is a baaaad choice.

[Darth Wong]

And, failing all else, I DO have a nice plumber's crack. I mean, hell, skilled labor like plumbers make 70 bucks an hour plus parts. It's not a bad gig if you can get your foot in the door.

I was not entirely joking when I made that comment. There is a critical shortage of skilled tradesmen coming in the near future in North America. This comes as a double consequence of the IT labour explosion and a long-running social trend of looking down on tradesmen as somehow being inferior to "real" workers (like office drones ). In Germany, they respect their tradesmen.

The chain of industrial creation looks like this:

Scientist
Engineer
Technician
Tradesman
End-User

Take out one of those pieces, and the chain doesn't work.

[TrailerParkJawa]

It depends on what kind of engineer you are. It's much harder to outsource civil engineering than computer engineering (and frankly, "computer engineering" is a misnomer anyway; most computer engineers are actually computer technicians; real engineering involves equations), because the buildings are being built here, and a civil engineer who cannot regularly visit the construction site is a baaaad choice.

True, civil engineers are hard to outsource. I was thinking more along the lines of ME and EE types. Civil engineering might not have a bad future considering how poor the infrastructure is in so many states. My cousin is a CE in Georgia. I meet her recently for the first time and she said here state is having many of the same infrastructure problems as CA. Too much growth, too fast, and not enough money raised to improve the roads, sewers, etc.

[Darth Wong]

True, civil engineers are hard to outsource. I was thinking more along the lines of ME and EE types. Civil engineering might not have a bad future considering how poor the infrastructure is in so many states. My cousin is a CE in Georgia. I meet her recently for the first time and she said here state is having many of the same infrastructure problems as CA. Too much growth, too fast, and not enough money raised to improve the roads, sewers, etc.

Again, it depends on the exact kind of engineering you're dealing with. If you are designing custom machinery for manufacturers who happen to be located here, there are a lot of cost and uncertainty and support issues which will keep them going to a local supplier over a far-off one. On the other hand, if the manufacturer is outsourcing their entire operations somewhere else or you're designing modular mass-manufactured components for the end-user market, you could be in jeopardy. Similarly, with electrical engineering, if you're working on transmission systems in Ohio (something they should really consider doing after the events of this year), you're safe. But if you're working on electrical circuit designs in computer components, your neck is on the block.

[TrailerParkJawa]

But if you're working on electrical circuit designs in computer components, your neck is on the block.

Which is why I think the outlook for my region is poor. Such work is the bread and butter of the valley.

Skilled trades are going to Mexicans now, because many of them are illegal wages are going down. What is happening in Canada? Are some areas just like here?

[Darth Wong]

Which is why I think the outlook for my region is poor. Such work is the bread and butter of the valley.

California bet very heavily on the IT boom. As with all gambles, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Skilled trades are going to Mexicans now, because many of them are illegal wages are going down. What is happening in Canada? Are some areas just like here?

We have been importing a lot of tradesmen from Europe, in my experience. Also, there are an increasing number of shops which actually prefer to hire unskilled monkeys fresh out of high school and then give them on-the-job training rather than getting proper tradesmen with their papers. This allows them to keep their employees captive; their job qualifications do not come with paper certification (and they actively discourage them from getting formal qualifications) so it's very difficult for them to move to another company. Of course, it also beats product quality to shit, but that's what happens when you let accountants run manufacturing operations (after all, the effect of poor quality upon customer goodwill will not appear in the next fiscal quarter).

I don't know why you would want to hire Mexican tradesmen. So far, all of my dealings with Mexican manufacturing operations have been uniformly awful. Lax discipline, shitty quality, incompetent management and workers who don't seem to give a shit about pride in workmanship.

[Crayz9000]

(and frankly, "computer engineering" is a misnomer anyway; most computer engineers are actually computer technicians; real engineering involves equations),

I meant, in my post at least, computer engineer as in the EE who specializes in computer hardware design...

[RedImperator]

If I'd had a head for the math, I'd have been a civil engineer. I really think I would have been happy designing sewer systems for the rest of my life. Seriously. Maybe I'll make that my final backup, everything else has gone to shit plan: Take night classes in math until I understand it, then learn engineering.

And then maybe I'll flap my arms and fly to Mars. <sigh> Learn math while it's free, kids.

[Peregrin Toker]

I saw a report recently about how rapidly improving education in relatively low-cost low-wage labour markets such as India is potentially killing the future job market for relatively high-paid North American IT people (India in particular is churning out qualified IT personnel at a stunning rate). Just something to think about if you're considering a career in IT.

Hey, take a look at it from the viewpoint of India.

For them, it's definately an advantage that they now can compete with North America in the field of IT.