Isreal has cost US 1.6 TRILLION so far....

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Just think of all the productive things that could have been done with that money....



http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

[MKSheppard]

So? We spent more than that protecting Europe from the Bear. I shudder
to think of the costs involved in CENTAG.

[MKSheppard]

Ah, to be exact we spent over $13 Trillion to fight the cold war.

[Axis Kast]

Israel has provided us with a slew of strategic benefits over the years.

It is folly to believe that our support for that country does anything more than stoke already-terrible opinions about the United States however; we'd still have been in many a conflict even without Israel.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Yeah, but holding off the Bear with supporting NATO/CENTAG was worthwhile, many see spending so much cash on Israel as a bad thing and should let them sort out their own problems.

[Axis Kast]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

[MKSheppard]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

He does have a point here. Israel was a useful ally against the soviet
dominated arab world.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

He does have a point here. Israel was a useful ally against the soviet
dominated arab world.

So what use are they today? I'm curious as to how many believe Israel should get such funding etc.

[Axis Kast]

Israel fulfills the functions of an under-the-table ally. It is a key indicator of the United States' willingness to stand by its partners over the long term.

Israel today helps field-test equipment destined for American forces, both offensive and defensive.

Israeli intelligence is still among the world's best, and helps suppliment our own. As Israel works to improve its human intelligence - devastated since the 1970s -, it does so alongside the United States. Shared data can go a long way toward clarifying hunches or bolstering analysis.

Finally, Israel can carry out actions that distance the United States from activities it might have to carry out instead - i.e. the bombing of Iran's nuclear reactors before they go online.

[Xenophobe3691]

Ah, after actually reading the article, it's apparent what he's talking about. I'm sorry, but he's showing only the opportunity cost for our actions. Really, I mean:

US Jewish charities and organizations have remitted grants or bought Israel bonds worth $50 billion to $60 billion. Though private in origin, the money is "a net drain" on the United States economy, says Stauffer.

My dad sends a lot of money through charity to Israel, and to relatives directly. He wouldn't exactly be buying US products if it weren't going there...

US policy and trade sanctions reduce US exports to the Middle East about $5 billion a year, costing 70,000 or so American jobs, Stauffer estimates. Not requiring Israel to use its US aid to buy American goods, as is usual in foreign aid, costs another 125,000 jobs.

And how many American jobs are created by the introduction of Israeli IT and Engineering skills?

[Darth Wong]

Israel fulfills the functions of an under-the-table ally. It is a key indicator of the United States' willingness to stand by its partners over the long term.

Regardless of what they do, thus validating foreign criticisms about your policies.

Israel today helps field-test equipment destined for American forces, both offensive and defensive.

Rather expensive field-testing unit.

Israeli intelligence is still among the world's best, and helps suppliment our own. As Israel works to improve its human intelligence - devastated since the 1970s -, it does so alongside the United States. Shared data can go a long way toward clarifying hunches or bolstering analysis.

How has Israel helped hunt down Al-Quaeda? What intelligence data have they provided?

Finally, Israel can carry out actions that distance the United States from activities it might have to carry out instead - i.e. the bombing of Iran's nuclear reactors before they go online.

Oh of course, NO ONE in the Arab world connects the actions of Israel to the US

[Axis Kast]

Regardless of what they do, thus validating foreign criticisms about your policies.

Yet eliminating those criticisms by disavowing support for Israel would by no means reconstitute America's image in the Middle East. "The Jewish Scourge" might be a good posterchild for Bin Laden's anti-American rhetoric, but it's grounded elsewhere - primarily in the clash of culture and economics. Jimmy Carter put words to the real issue: strategic interests in the continued flow of petroleum.

Rather expensive field-testing unit.

And where else would those items undergo expensive field-testing? In a battlefield on which American troops are fighting and dying? It's a sad determination, but one I have a strong feeling Congressmen routinely make.

How has Israel helped hunt down Al-Quaeda? What intelligence data have they provided?

Israel regularly shares intelligence with the United States. Al-Qaeda is not the only issue of interest between us. Our own analysis of the fighting potential of Middle Eastern armies is often tempered and refined by comparison with Israeli determinations.

Oh of course, NO ONE in the Arab world connects the actions of Israel to the US.

You'd rather the U.S. bomb Iran if Israel might do it for us?

[Darth Wong]

Yet eliminating those criticisms by disavowing support for Israel would by no means reconstitute America's image in the Middle East. "The Jewish Scourge" might be a good posterchild for Bin Laden's anti-American rhetoric, but it's grounded elsewhere - primarily in the clash of culture and economics. Jimmy Carter put words to the real issue: strategic interests in the continued flow of petroleum.

And without Israel, we would be unable to purchase petroleum from Arab countries whose entire economies are completely dependent on us doing so? Nice false dilemma fallacy.

Rather expensive field-testing unit.

And where else would those items undergo expensive field-testing? In a battlefield on which American troops are fighting and dying? It's a sad determination, but one I have a strong feeling Congressmen routinely make.

Oh yes, it's soooo useful field-testing American military equipment against rock-throwing children and civilian apartment buildings

How has Israel helped hunt down Al-Quaeda? What intelligence data have they provided?

Israel regularly shares intelligence with the United States. Al-Qaeda is not the only issue of interest between us. Our own analysis of the fighting potential of Middle Eastern armies is often tempered and refined by comparison with Israeli determinations.

Very nice political double-speak, Kast. Let me re-phrase it for you: in other words, you can't provide a single example of useful intelligence that Israel has procured for the US in its so-called war on terror. Concession accepted.

Oh of course, NO ONE in the Arab world connects the actions of Israel to the US.

You'd rather the U.S. bomb Iran if Israel might do it for us?

Actually, if the US bombed Iran itself (not that such action is necessarily a national-security imperative) and did not support Israel at all, it would have the advantage of a clear foreign-policy directive of preventing nuclear proliferation. It lacks such clarity now with its "let's support Israel no matter what they do and then we'll rationalize it after the fact" policy.

[Sea Skimmer]

So what use are they today? I'm curious as to how many believe Israel should get such funding etc.

The US is propositioning equipment in Israel and the IDF has and is training the US Army and Marines for urban warfare.

Course anyone who reads the article will notice that the vast majority of these costs are all from the 1973 oil embargo, direct US aid to Israel is actually only a fraction of what they are counting. Of course they also claim that we lost 40 billion by not selling F-15's to Saudi Arabia, which is simply a load of bullshit. There also counting money lost through embargos to other Middle Eastern nations, most of which would still be in effect regardless, there also counting billions as being lost from the US unloading unwanted equipment, that would have otherwise been scrapped, to the IDF. The cost of the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve, something we ought to have had anyway and that was advocated for years is being counted as well.

The figure of 1.6 trillion is deceptive at best and a load off bullshit really.

[Admiral Valdemar]

So what use are they today? I'm curious as to how many believe Israel should get such funding etc.

The US is propositioning equipment in Israel and the IDF has and is training the US Army and Marines for urban warfare.

Course anyone who reads the article will notice that the vast majority of these costs are all from the 1973 oil embargo, direct US aid to Israel is actually only a fraction of what they are counting. Of course they also claim that we lost 40 billion by not selling F-15's to Saudi Arabia, which is simply a load of bullshit. There also counting money lost through embargos to other Middle Eastern nations, most of which would still be in effect regardless, there also counting billions as being lost from the US unloading unwanted equipment, that would have otherwise been scrapped, to the IDF. The cost of the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve, something we ought to have had anyway and that was advocated for years is being counted as well.

The figure of 1.6 trillion is deceptive at best and a load off bullshit really.

I forgot that. Really that's the main reason I can see for the US/Israel tie and anything else just seems superfluous. The military cooperation is helpful at least, I refuse to comment on the Israel and Palestine issues.

[Xisiqomelir]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

He does have a point here. Israel was a useful ally against the soviet
dominated arab world.

So what use are they today? I'm curious as to how many believe Israel should get such funding etc.

I do. Israel is a valuable ally to America in a region both horrendously unstable and geopolitically valuable.

[Darth Wong]

I do. Israel is a valuable ally to America in a region both horrendously unstable and geopolitically valuable.

Here's a hint, kiddo: you're supposed to explain why you think this is true, instead of just stating that it's true. Otherwise, your post is nothing more than noise.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

He does have a point here. Israel was a useful ally against the soviet
dominated arab world.

Did it ever occur to you that the arab world would not have been dominated by the Soviets had we not unconditionally supported Isreal and provided them with Billions of Dollars and equpment each and every year?

[Sea Skimmer]

Did it ever occur to you that the arab world would not have been dominated by the Soviets had we not unconditionally supported Isreal and provided them with Billions of Dollars and equpment each and every year?

Soviet influence in the Arab world predates significant American involvement. It was actually France that was Israel's main supporter when the Soviets got involved. When the US showed up in a major way post 1967, Egypt which was the Soviets largest enclave by far shifted sides less then a decade later.

[Xenophobe3691]

Opening a second nuclear front against the Soviet Caucasus, finding an ally who could tread time and again over socialism in the Middle East, and providing a useful source of intelligence data was never a bad decision.

He does have a point here. Israel was a useful ally against the soviet
dominated arab world.

Did it ever occur to you that the arab world would not have been dominated by the Soviets had we not unconditionally supported Isreal and provided them with Billions of Dollars and equpment each and every year?

And do you realize that the Soviet Union supported the creation of Israel right off the bat, and that it took a concerted effort by the Zionist lobby in America to get the US to support the resolution? May Day was a national holiday (Not sure if it still is, I'll have to look) till pretty recently. The Israeli labor Unions, the Histadrut, hold ENORMOUS political power, in fact, the Labor party is one of the largest parties (If not the largest) in Israel.

[Wicked Pilot]

I'm all for helping countries in the Middle East. But if we give them the money, especially for military aide, then there needs to be strings attached.

[MKSheppard]

I'm all for helping countries in the Middle East. But if we give them the money, especially for military aide, then there needs to be strings attached.

No shit, what do you think we've been doing since 1973?

[Sea Skimmer]

Ah, to be exact we spent over $13 Trillion to fight the cold war.

We won the Cold War through economics, add up the US GDP from 1949 through 1991 to get the real cost.

[Axis Kast]

And without Israel, we would be unable to purchase petroleum from Arab countries whose entire economies are completely dependent on us doing so? Nice false dilemma fallacy.

You misunderstand.

The problems in the Middle East would in no way be abrogated by abandonment of Israel. Rather, they stem from the economic dislocation of Western interest in petroleum deposits. The Middle East is one of those places which, like Africa, finds it very difficult to participate in the global market without compromising its own existing culture and politics. It is the lure of short-term wealth that is most to blame for the region’s current condition, and the impact of that psychological trap upon resident cultures which contributes most to hatred for the West – and America in particular. Ariel Sharon is no more responsible for our problems than Jimmy Carter.

Leaving Israel would not stop suicide bombings against American targets.

h yes, it's soooo useful field-testing American military equipment against rock-throwing children and civilian apartment buildings.

Actually, American troops have studied Israeli techniques in the past; urban combat in Baghdad was to be based on the IDF model. Not to mention that while Israeli troops do carry M16s into combat in the Gaza Strip, collaboration is mostly in the realm of missile technology. Many of our air-defense projects get a significant monetary boost in the form of Israeli advocacy or cooperation.

Very nice political double-speak, Kast. Let me re-phrase it for you: in other words, you can't provide a single example of useful intelligence that Israel has procured for the US in its so-called war on terror. Concession accepted.

No, I cannot provide any particular scenario in which Israeli intelligence helped the United States. Does that mean I’d make a bet that it has never done so? Absolutely not.

Anyway, now that I’ve had time to look into it …

“… intertwined relationships in military, intelligence, bureaucracy … “

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/israel ... israel.us/

A Clinton-era initiative of the type I discussed:

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V116/N12/clinton.12w.html

Actually, if the US bombed Iran itself (not that such action is necessarily a national-security imperative) and did not support Israel at all, it would have the advantage of a clear foreign-policy directive of preventing nuclear proliferation. It lacks such clarity now with its "let's support Israel no matter what they do and then we'll rationalize it after the fact" policy.

So you’d rather the United States fired missiles at those reactors outright? And you doubt that they did us a favor in 1982 by demolishing Osirak? That their success probably helped influence Egyptian leaders to abandon their close relationships with the Soviets for fear Moscow was the inferior partner to the United States?

This is why I love debating with you on the topic of Israel, Mike. You make all those unfounded assumptions of which you accuse me everywhere else. We’ve taken on this issue time and time again; you always lose for lack of a decent argument beyond: “But they’ve got such repressive policies!” In fact, I'm sure something of the sort is going to be central to your next reply.

[Sea Skimmer]

Oh yes, it's soooo useful field-testing American military equipment against rock-throwing children and civilian apartment buildings

Yeah, we all know how the wars of 1967, 1973 and 1982 didn't happen. And those complete SAM sites, tanks, SPAAG units and artillery peices the US never faced in Vietnam yet where captured by Isreal and shipped to the US Isreal complete with ammunition and reports of there effectiveness in action dont exist either.