This article is disturbing on many levels. The one that bothers me the most is how they appear to be going after the Lt. Col. West. I'm also disturbed by what got him into this predicament in the first place. I haven't been in that kind of situation so I find it difficult to judge.
The J.A.G. officer seems to be doing his job but I wonder if given the circumstances in Iraq if he might not be holding them to a peace time standard.
John Weisman on Military.com wrote:
November 3, 2003
Dear General:
Now let's see if I get this straight. An officer whose Tikrit-based troops have come under attack from Saddam loyalists becomes aware that an Iraqi detainee has information about a planned ambush of his Soldiers, but the prisoner isn't being cooperative.
The officer then goes to interrogate the detainee -- an Iraqi police officer, by the way -- and in the course of questioning, fires his weapon as a way of making the point that he's serious about obtaining straight answers.
The detainee then tells the truth. The ambush is averted, and Soldiers' lives are saved.
The officer is then:
A: given a commendation.
B: promoted to full colonel for showing initiative under pressure and loyalty to his troops.
C: told to resign his commission immediately or face a court martial.
The correct answer, I'm sorry to have to report, is "C."
Lt. Col. Alan B. West, who aggressively interrogated an Iraqi detainee so that he could prevent an ambush and save his Soldiers lives, is being charged with aggravated assault by his unit's JAG officer.
According to published reports, Lt. Col West allowed two of his Soldiers to "physically agress" the prisoner (an act for which they were later fined), and then West brandished his pistol and fired two shots to scare the man into talking.
For this, the Judge Advocate General's office wants to end his 19-year career and possibly send him to prison for eight years. Meanwhile, idiot officers who get their men killed are being given medals and promotions, and generals who have never come under fire are putting themselves in for Silver Stars.
General Schoomaker, this is madness -- and you have to put a full stop to it right now.
Because this is what happens when lawyers, not shooters, run the military.
This is what happens in the politically correct world in which a secretary of the army (Togo West) hires a consultant who actually drafts a report stating that the Army needs to become less aggressive and more in touch with its feminine side.
This is what happens when the Army culture replaces risk-taking and initiative with hundreds of pages of rules and regulations that hamper war-fighting, degrade unit integrity, and place inane limits on how Soldiers can or cannot conduct themselves in battle.
This is what happens when managers and systems analysts replace Warriors in the command structure.
This is what happens when somewhere along the chain of command, the idea that war is about killing people and breaking things gets completely lost. This is what happens when the Army forgets the words of General George S. Patton, Jr.: "We must be eager to kill, to inflict on the enemy -- the hated enemy -- wounds, death, and destruction."
Now, I'm not in favor of hooking prisoners up to field telephones -- although it has certainly happened in the past. Nor am I in favor of taking the Argentine approach to interrogation, i.e., tossing one prisoner out of a chopper 10,000 feet above the South Atlantic and then posing the question to the second prisoner in the chopper.
Moreover, Lt. Col West's actions came nowhere close to anything that can be called torture. Aggressive? Obviously. Outside the box? Absolutely. But aren't those qualities precisely the qualities we want in our officers?
Because if I were a Soldier serving under West's command, I'd say HOOAH, Colonel, and follow him to hell. Why? Because Lt. Col. West demonstrated something that far too few of today's officers are willing to demonstrate to their men and women: loyalty DOWN the chain of command.
Lt. Col. West put his Soldiers' lives above his own career. That sort of behavior deserves to be praised and rewarded, not given eight years and a dishonorable discharge.
John Weisman is one of a select company of writers to have had books on both the New York Times fiction and nonfiction best-seller lists. His best-sellers include Rogue Warrior (written with Richard Marcinko) and Rogue Warrior's eight fictional sequels. A former journalist, Weisman has worked in more than three dozen countries. His latest work, the Black Ops novel SOAR, is now available through HarperCollins/William Morrow. He is currently completing the second Black Ops novel, Jack in the Box, for release in 2004. He can be emailed at: blackops@johnweisman.com
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
I'd hate to say it, but where are you supposed to draw the line? Should every person you have captured be beaten and threatened just in case they have information that could save the soldiers lives? These rules exist for a reason. The very notion that whoever wrote that originally could seriously argue that such an act should be worthy of promotion/commendation makes me sick to my stomach.
while I would not give him a comendation for this, I would certainly not prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law either as they seem to be doing. I would at most NJP his ass because it was wrong, but only NJP because he did save lives and not grossly overstep his authority.
"War.... it's faaaaaantastic!" <--- Hot Shots:Part Duex "Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't care how fucking crazy they are!"~ Seth from Dusk Till Dawn
|BotM|Justice League's Lethal Protector
I agree with Death from the Sea. Truly there are regulations that should be held, but holding them too tight would undoubtly stiffen the troops. Dying for your country is honorable, but making the enemy dying for theirs is VICTORY. War isn't about who's right, but who's left.
1st Plt. Comm. of the Warwolves Member of Justice League "People can't see Buddha so they say he doesn't have a body, since his body is formed of atoms, of course you can't see it. Saying he doesn't have a body is correct"- Li HongZhi
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:I agree with Death from the Sea. Truly there are regulations that should be held, but holding them too tight would undoubtly stiffen the troops. Dying for your country is honorable, but making the enemy dying for theirs is VICTORY. War isn't about who's right, but who's left.
The war in Iraq is over. Did you miss Bush landing a plane on a carrier to announce that?
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Durandal wrote:
The war in Iraq is over. Did you miss Bush landing a plane on a carrier to announce that?
Obviously for the Iraqi it isn't.
1st Plt. Comm. of the Warwolves Member of Justice League "People can't see Buddha so they say he doesn't have a body, since his body is formed of atoms, of course you can't see it. Saying he doesn't have a body is correct"- Li HongZhi
Durandal wrote:
The war in Iraq is over. Did you miss Bush landing a plane on a carrier to announce that?
Funny I recall him saying major combat is over, I also don't recall anything bigger then a platoon sized fight happening since.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
The giant "Mission Accomplished" banner on the carrier that Bush landed on was a sort of hint. If you want to replace "war" with "major hostilities," fine. There never was a war in the first place, if you want to play that game. There were simply major hostilities ordered by the president by virtue of the War Powers Act.
What we're in now is an occupation with resistance. And the war is over for the vast majority of Iraqis. The small minority of extremists are the ones resisting, not the general population.
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
While I understand where you're coming from, it was a overplayed piece of political BS. Bush declared that the major combat ops were over, not the war. His way of saying the 'hard part was over', though it obviously wasn't. We're playing defense right now, why I couldn't tell you, but shit is low level high visability.
On the article;
I not quite certain if the Col firing a threatening shot or 'warning shot' would be considered a violation of any laws or regs. It's a pretty grey area, and IMO if its in the grey the Army should be backing the guy instead of setting the JAG on his ass and covering theirs.
Shooting the prisnor would clearly be a major fuck up, but intimidation isn't. If I was the Col. I'd tell them to go fuck them selves and bring on the GCM.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Durandal wrote:The giant "Mission Accomplished" banner on the carrier that Bush landed on was a sort of hint. If you want to replace "war" with "major hostilities," fine. There never was a war in the first place, if you want to play that game. There were simply major hostilities ordered by the president by virtue of the War Powers Act.
What we're in now is an occupation with resistance. And the war is over for the vast majority of Iraqis. The small minority of extremists are the ones resisting, not the general population.
[waits for some Bush apologist to testily proclaim that that banner actually meant the carrier's mission was accomplished, as if anyone is fucking dumb enough to believe that Bush's PR team would have him stand under a banner that didn't say EXACTLY what he wanted it to say, and is suspiciously similar to every other banner/sign he's ever stood in front of]
Durandal wrote:The giant "Mission Accomplished" banner on the carrier that Bush landed on was a sort of hint. If you want to replace "war" with "major hostilities," fine. There never was a war in the first place, if you want to play that game. There were simply major hostilities ordered by the president by virtue of the War Powers Act.
What we're in now is an occupation with resistance. And the war is over for the vast majority of Iraqis. The small minority of extremists are the ones resisting, not the general population.
I guess technically they could say that the mission was accomplished. "Removing Saddam"
He is a POW and the only thing he has to say is Name, Rank and SN.
Threatening a POW’s life should give him life in the stockade. If the military accept this from their officers don’t come whining when your soldiers gets the 3rd degree or torture.
The rules of warfare is there for a reason.
[img=right]http://hem.bredband.net/b217293/warsaban.gif[/img] "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus
Fear is the mother of all gods.
Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods. -Lucretius
Faram wrote:He is a POW and the only thing he has to say is Name, Rank and SN.
Threatening a POW’s life should give him life in the stockade. If the military accept this from their officers don’t come whining when your soldiers gets the 3rd degree or torture.
The rules of warfare is there for a reason.
Seconded. The United States seems to think it can get around the rules of war with regards to POW's. The detainees at Gitmo are just another example of this behavior.
Any useful information derived from an illegal interogation is beside the point. When someone violates the rules of war, they destroy our credibility as a nation that plays by the rules and doesn't resort to these kind of cowboy tactics.
Colonel Olrik wrote:I guess that an iraqi officer caught guilty of doing the same thing to an american soldier wouldn't be court martialed as a war criminal, then.
That's the real problem isn't it? We expect other countries to obey the rules when we violate them whenever it suits us. If I could sum up the Bush administration in one word it would be "hypocrisy".
Faram wrote:He is a POW and the only thing he has to say is Name, Rank and SN.
Threatening a POW?s life should give him life in the stockade. If the military accept this from their officers don?t come whining when your soldiers gets the 3rd degree or torture.
The rules of warfare is there for a reason.
Wars over, and If he's Iraqi Police and suposedly working on our side now then he the POW Geneva convention stuff doesnt apply.
Call me a hearltes s Bastard, but I wouldn't be against it if thaty Lt Colonel ha ddecided that, instead of firing in the air or at the ground, he put a bullet in the fuckers Kneecap. He knew something, lives of my countrymen were saved, im happy.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
Darth Fanboy wrote:
Wars over, and If he's Iraqi Police and suposedly working on our side now then he the POW Geneva convention stuff doesnt apply.
Call me a hearltes s Bastard, but I wouldn't be against it if thaty Lt Colonel ha ddecided that, instead of firing in the air or at the ground, he put a bullet in the fuckers Kneecap. He knew something, lives of my countrymen were saved, im happy.
Like I said, I dont care, soldier's lives were saved.
"If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." -George Carlin (1937-2008)
"Have some of you Americans actually seen Football? Of course there are 0-0 draws but that doesn't make them any less exciting." -Dr Roberts, with quite possibly the dumbest thing ever said in 10 years of SDNet.
