Is the Wars Galaxy just fanwank or misunderstood?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-11-05 02:32pm

It seems that the biggest complaint that even moderate Trekkeis have in regard to Wars and the Warsies that love it are the claims of enormous power and resources that just sounds like fan wanking.

"A single ship can blast a world into magma."

"Coruscant will recover within a few months from the Vong terraforming"

"25,000 ISD's is laughably small fleet."

BUT could the misunderstanding be a very simple one: scale.

Trekkies and most other franchises be they books or movies or TV shows focus ona few starsystems, a quadrant of a galaxy, etc. The Star Wars universe deals with a GALACTIC civilization that has been around for thousands of years. They have had untold millennia to build up an infrastructure the likes of which few other franchises have ever seen or dreamed of.

As I write Twilight War I am constantly trying to scale up and scale down to get a good approximation of what will make an interesting battle or a simple skirmish. What the Feds can bring to the table and just how much they can REALLY contribute to the war effort.

SO I guess what I'm saying is that can these suspect fan wanking claims by warsies (particulalrly the rabid variety) be explained by the simple scale differences between Wars and other franchises?

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-11-05 02:53pm

Yeah, pretty much.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-11-05 02:58pm

Some claims are fanwank. And those who make them are usually hunted down and mocked. But most of it is the sheer scale of the thing.

the Republic lasted for 25,000 years. Prior to that there had been smaller space empires for millions of years (evidenced by the fact that species such as the faleen and Twileks evolving to appear more human like and the minimum time for that barring unproven gene manipluation and further supported by the differnet human offshoots).

The numbers one can generate for the power used by the Death Star are bordering incomprehensible because the standard 1*10^38 is just KE and ignore the fact it would have been thermal damage, on top of the power for all its systems.

the mass of their ships blows your mind when you cruch the numbers to explain how they carry sufficient fuel to fly.

In the movies, EVERYTHING we see from capital ships is a lower limit. We have no idea what they are truely capable of.

A single one of their factories can produce millions of droids a day, and they have whole planets covered in the things.

They have system spanning shipyards.

A total of ~51 million worlds in the form of colonies, outposts, and homeworlds populate their space, and they have spacestations all over the place. They have spread out to the point where a person can win a planet at cards as easily as one might win a car in Vegas.

They have medical technology that can sustain people who have lost almost their entire bodies for years to come with relatively normal lives.

Low end numbers point to fleets of a billion ships. They can loose thousands in a single battle and continue the war unabated.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. But the scale of a galactic civilization like theirs is really almost incomprehensible to us. There isn't alot we can compare it to. Realistically, from our extremely limited view, a truely galactic civilization would be a living no limits fallacy. And this bugs alot of people. Some of them it more then bugs, the fact that they can't win angers them, so they last out. And its a sad reaction, but its how it is.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-11-05 05:38pm

Ender's got a good point: it's a combination of age of setting and scale of setting. Most sci-fi universes deal with a portion of a galaxy at a particular point of time. As an analogy, let's use America at the time of the War of 1812 (would use something more like Mary Rose era, but I know later weapons better). Star Wars deals with a civilization with much older space travel, and exploration/control of the majority of the galaxy, more similar to Cold War-era NATO (gross simplification here, but this is a simplistic analogy). Nobody would argue a 16" cannon is fanwanking...they really exist. Yet a single Iowa-class battleship could easily destroy the entire Royal Navy of 1812, let alone the lesser American navy. The heaviest guns used back then by the US (as faras I recall) were 32 pounders, far inferior to even a simple 5" gun. It's a matter of age and scale. Indeed, the only question is why Star Wars ships are so weak for the age of their civilization (most likely technological stagnation under the long peace of the Republic).

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2003-11-05 10:40pm

The Dark wrote:Indeed, the only question is why Star Wars ships are so weak for the age of their civilization (most likely technological stagnation under the long peace of the Republic).

Well, I think once you get up into the Empire's power range (hell, even the Federation's) the power level is largely a function of the creator's opinion of the limits of the laws of nature.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-05 11:02pm

It seems that the biggest complaint that even moderate Trekkeis have in regard to Wars and the Warsies that love it are the claims of enormous power and resources that just sounds like fan wanking.

Introduce them to the Culture.

SO I guess what I'm saying is that can these suspect fan wanking claims by warsies (particulalrly the rabid variety) be explained by the simple scale differences between Wars and other franchises?

While there are certainly some Warsies that pleasure themselves thinking about the details it's really just a matter of scale and simple experience. In Trek, most civilizations are a few hundred to a few thousand years old. There has been a space faring, galactically active civilization for a twenty five thousands years. The technological gap is inevitable.

It's like the difference between Britian of 1800 and America of 2000. A huge difference of technology and industrial base.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-11-06 12:12am

Ender brought up some good points. And yes Stravo, a lot of it has to do with sheer scale as well. The Trekverse it limited to quandrants and takes years to cross one. The Galactic Empire was truly that.

But yeah, I do agree.. sometimes the numbers just kind of make my head itch.. with that much power I would expect a small fighter to wipe out all the cities in North America..

But I have to say, I enjoy the Twilight War.. though in the end, I do not think the Trek universe can supply much except maybe as a galaxy rich with relatively untapped natural resources. Though I suspect the Trekkies will help in some way more human than machine.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-11-06 12:14am

Ah, but The Dark, an Iowa couldn't carry enough ammunition to destroy the 900+ ship RN of 1812. Then there's the slight refueling problem involved in hunting them down.
Therefore, Trek wins.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-11-06 09:20am

oh come on no ofense but u ALWAYS complain about warsie and their wankfests well the SW galaxy is what it is and there is no doubt that they had a long time to develope but omg after all fans are fans

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-06 12:14pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Ah, but The Dark, an Iowa couldn't carry enough ammunition to destroy the 900+ ship RN of 1812. Then there's the slight refueling problem involved in hunting them down.
Therefore, Trek wins.

Well, when they run out of ammunition they could always just start running the things down.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-11-06 03:33pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Ah, but The Dark, an Iowa couldn't carry enough ammunition to destroy the 900+ ship RN of 1812. Then there's the slight refueling problem involved in hunting them down.
Therefore, Trek wins.

Hell all they need to do is sit off the British coast and blast the things attempting to sortie in and out of port with pre-sight 5" guns. They carry enough ammo and the situation of the British Isels qwould require them somehow sending for the fleet to come home if attacked (even if hopelessley outmatched as in this case). Therefore SW wins

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-11-06 06:10pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Ah, but The Dark, an Iowa couldn't carry enough ammunition to destroy the 900+ ship RN of 1812. Then there's the slight refueling problem involved in hunting them down.
Therefore, Trek wins.

Bah. The 40mm AA cannon would be enough to take out frigates, sloops, or ketches (the 20mm might even be sufficient for causing spall damage inside the ship). The only thing that might require the 5" are ships-of-the-line. The 16" cannon? Bombard London

.

And yeah, they wouldn't have enough fuel. Fine. We'll increase the tech level, and send the Iowa against the Warrior (or, if you want an all-American fight, the Keokuk). Either of the older ships are screwed royally (well, Warrior is...Keokuk would be democratically screwed

).