How do you reform the UN?

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Post by Darth Wong »

Coyote wrote:That would be the better choice, but we have that option now and no one is using it.
Of course not, because no one really wants the Third World to get any better. The Third World is a convenient source of cheap labour and natural resources which can both be harvested with little or no oversight in terms of human-rights or environmental legislation. Who has a vested interest in eliminating this situation, and how powerful are they compared to the people who have a vested interest in keeping things just the way they are?

That's probably why the standing approach to the Third World is to give the proverbial starving a man a fish rather than teaching him how to fish. It mollifies the critics and "bleeding-heart liberals" while preserving the useful status quo.
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Post by Aeolus »

Darth Wong wrote:
Coyote wrote:That would be the better choice, but we have that option now and no one is using it.
Of course not, because no one really wants the Third World to get any better. The Third World is a convenient source of cheap labour and natural resources which can both be harvested with little or no oversight in terms of human-rights or environmental legislation. Who has a vested interest in eliminating this situation, and how powerful are they compared to the people who have a vested interest in keeping things just the way they are?

That's probably why the standing approach to the Third World is to give the proverbial starving a man a fish rather than teaching him how to fish. It mollifies the critics and "bleeding-heart liberals" while preserving the useful status quo.
That is the most cynical observation I have heard in quite a while.....unfortunately it is also probably correct
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Aeolus wrote:
That is the most cynical observation I have heard in quite a while.....unfortunately it is also probably correct
It is correct. Look at US trade policy re Africa, esp the African growth and oppertunity Act {AGOA} setup. Not that that is the only instance, nor is America the only nation to do similar things.
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Re: How do you reform the UN?

Post by Oddity »

Straha wrote:You have been given unlimited power over the UN, how do you reform it?
Unlimited power is good.

1. Kick out every country with a non-democratic government.

2. Internal reforms. Ministers of Foreign Affairs become senators in the new UN Senate. The number of representatives each nation can have in the UN Congress are decided by the population number. The President is elected directly without any regard to nationality. No veto rights.

3. Create a combined military under UN command. Not peace keepers, but peace enforcers with a shoot first policy.

The result: A defacto world government with an army and the power to use it.


Of course, there's no way in hell I can pull that off back home in the Real World.
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Post by PainRack »

Why should maintaining a division worth of infantry rapidly bankrupt the UN? Why should it cost a few billion US dollars a year?

We're not talking about creating a AirCav, or 1st Armoured Div here. We're just talking about being able to put light infantry, backed up by light artillery and armoured vehicles at most.

They will not supplant the need for member nations to contribute peacekeeping forces, but will rather act as a QRF in theatre as a show of force, until member nations mobilise and put troops on the ground. After all, one of the reason why Kosovo went to NATO instead of the UN was because it would had taken months for a UN fighting force to had affected the decision on the ground.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

PainRack wrote:Why should maintaining a division worth of infantry rapidly bankrupt the UN? Why should it cost a few billion US dollars a year?
Because that's how much a worthwhile force which will be able to overmatch the opposition and not get bogged down with a huge causality count will cost.

We're not talking about creating a AirCav, or 1st Armoured Div here. We're just talking about being able to put light infantry, backed up by light artillery and armoured vehicles at most.
Then you've got a useless and unnecessary force then that cannot enforce anything, the Blue hated peacekeeper units already handle watching boarders when both sides want to avoid fighting. And commiting a light UN force when one side is threating action would be irresponsible.

They will not supplant the need for member nations to contribute peacekeeping forces, but will rather act as a QRF in theatre as a show of force, until member nations mobilise and put troops on the ground.

Your talking about something different then what was proposed, which was a force that could actually deal with conflicts. Your concept is a glorified version of the existing UN Blue capped peacekeepers.

After all, one of the reason why Kosovo went to NATO instead of the UN was because it would had taken months for a UN fighting force to had affected the decision on the ground.
Kosvo went to NATO because the UN wasn't doing anything, a UN force would have drawn on the member states, of which every NATO country is one so there's no difference in time, its the same guys under slightly different banners. However Kosvo is a horrible example since it was clear even at the time that the war was on very dubious grounds and no one should have intervened.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
PainRack wrote:Why should maintaining a division worth of infantry rapidly bankrupt the UN? Why should it cost a few billion US dollars a year?
Because that's how much a worthwhile force which will be able to overmatch the opposition and not get bogged down with a huge causality count will cost.
And even then it does not always matter if you outmatch the enemy, it can still cost vast sums of money and have a fairly low casualty count and not get the job done
You might also point out the cost of a depolyed unit overseas compared to a unit in base on a peactime routine of varying degree's of rediness
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Stuart Mackey wrote:It is correct. Look at US trade policy re Africa, esp the African growth and oppertunity Act {AGOA} setup. Not that that is the only instance, nor is America the only nation to do similar things.
Yeah, and those EU protectionist agricultural practices...
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:It is correct. Look at US trade policy re Africa, esp the African growth and oppertunity Act {AGOA} setup. Not that that is the only instance, nor is America the only nation to do similar things.
Yeah, and those EU protectionist agricultural practices...
Jesus, dont get me started on that...grrr. Well I will say one thing for the EU, they are honest about their trade idiocy, not something you can rely on with the US..but I put that down to strong US lobby groups more than government intent in most cases.
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Post by PainRack »

Sea Skimmer wrote: Because that's how much a worthwhile force which will be able to overmatch the opposition and not get bogged down with a huge causality count will cost.
Except what is needed is a light infantry force that can rapidly project security, not fight a war. While it is certainly true that the failure of UN operations is mainly due to the lack of security, the fact remains that the deteroiating security situation is mostly due to the lack of a stabilising force in the first place.

The force that deployed in East Timor for Interfaet is a perfect example. Follow up forces were mainly light infantry, engineers, medics and logistic forces meant to stabilise the situation for humanitarian work.The real fighting has already been accomplished by Australian forces. What was needed was a stabilising force that could stabilise the situation further, to project a presence so as to say as opposed to a confrontation against hostile miltias.

An expedition, organised around an infantry battalion, with attached signals, engineers, medical and an artillery company is ample to startup UN peacekeeping operations, while waiting for follow up troops from member nations.

Then you've got a useless and unnecessary force then that cannot enforce anything, the Blue hated peacekeeper units already handle watching boarders when both sides want to avoid fighting. And commiting a light UN force when one side is threating action would be irresponsible.
Except I'm not talking about committing UN forces to stop fighting. Understand that we're not talking about peace enforcing, I'm talking about peacekeeping. Both sides are already supposed to have stopped fighting. However, as East Timor demonstrate, "rogue" elements, as well as provactive actions by either side could steadily deteoriate the security situation further.

Furthermore, I honestly doubt that the slaughter in Rwanda could not have been stopped by a light infantry force. Afterall, an army armed with nothing more than WWII rifles and knives/axes/machetes drove out the genocide.

Your talking about something different then what was proposed, which was a force that could actually deal with conflicts. Your concept is a glorified version of the existing UN Blue capped peacekeepers.
1. I initially proposed this in the thread.

2. Glorified version or not, the fact remains that Blue capped peacekeepers are ineffective at their chosen role now and often arrive too late anyway. What is needed now, is blue capped peacekeepers who can arrive on site immediately, and is already trained and equipped to handle possible hostile situations before the situation deteoriates to require a 2nd Armoured Division in the field to calm things down.


Kosvo went to NATO because the UN wasn't doing anything, a UN force would have drawn on the member states, of which every NATO country is one so there's no difference in time, its the same guys under slightly different banners. However Kosvo is a horrible example since it was clear even at the time that the war was on very dubious grounds and no one should have intervened.
Wrong. Kosovo went to NATO because NATO was a military alliance and could draw upon NATO troops in Germany and other bases. Any UN peacekeeping force would had taken weeks, if not months to have been authorised and deployed. Interfaet followed up on Australia deployment for a reason. No other nation could contribute forces to assist Australia initial operation to stabilise Dili, much less execute Australia first objective, evacuate Westerners.



Hell, if even basic auditing and accounting procedures is used, funds for an infantry regiment should be easily raised.
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Post by PainRack »

Stuart Mackey wrote: And even then it does not always matter if you outmatch the enemy, it can still cost vast sums of money and have a fairly low casualty count and not get the job done
You might also point out the cost of a depolyed unit overseas compared to a unit in base on a peactime routine of varying degree's of rediness
Hello. I do approximately know the cost of deploying a unit overseas. In this case, the cost escalates even higher, due to the need for a high readiness unit, constant deployment and redeployment of troops, maintenance schedules and logistic trains as well as a probable high operational tempo. To put it simply, 1.2 million USD might be enough to pay for the operational expenses and allowances, for a single day.

However, since the UN wastes millions of dollars to fraud alone, any kind of proper auditing and accouting procedures over the UN daily expenditure should be sufficient to raise an infantry regiment at least.
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Post by Coyote »

When I talk about a standing UN deployment force, I'd certainly not advocate a massive, World-War-Two style continental army. Some light and fast regiments that can be deployed by sea or by air, rapidly. The Rwanda thing was what I had in mind, but the East Timor situation or Liberia and Sierra Leone cases alsio are included:

Something that can get in and hold a secure line for refugees or aid camps while the Security Council hammers out a real force of multinational partners that would bring their own heavy weapons if needed.

As it is, there is nothing standing between refugees and militants to prevent slaughters while the big powers bicker over funds, force commitments, and etc.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Stuart Mackey wrote:Jesus, dont get me started on that...grrr. Well I will say one thing for the EU, they are honest about their trade idiocy, not something you can rely on with the US..but I put that down to strong US lobby groups more than government intent in most cases.
When the goverments stops taking 52%> in taxes they can stop with the support they are giving farmers as well, as of now, they created a situation that makes private farming without help practically impossible.
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Post by tharkûn »

Who has a vested interest in eliminating this situation, and how powerful are they compared to the people who have a vested interest in keeping things just the way they are?

McDonald's, Coca-Cola, and every other multinational conglomerate that sells piss cheap goods with mass market appeal. A LOT of firms would love the third world to be affluent ... it would mean billions more customers for cardboard "hamburgers" and a serious amount of cash to those who sell to them.

Further a lot of companies would like a more stable and prosporous third world because it stop these nasty little disturbances where the rebels take over the country, blow the crap out of your infrastructure, and ruin your profits because everybody is fleeing for their lives. Likewise how much money does it cost the world when Nigeria has a general strike and oil price shocks?

And of course one can't ignore the handicapped firms, those who more or less have to do business in the US and would like for their competitors to have the same labour costs. Would Ford like all car companies in the world to pay UAW wages? Hell yes.

I don't know if McDonald's has more clout than Nike or whomever, but there are numerous purely selfish reasons for the powers that be to want a better third world.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

PainRack wrote:snip

The force that deployed in East Timor for Interfaet is a perfect example. Follow up forces were mainly light infantry, engineers, medics and logistic forces meant to stabilise the situation for humanitarian work.The real fighting has already been accomplished by Australian forces. What was needed was a stabilising force that could stabilise the situation further, to project a presence so as to say as opposed to a confrontation against hostile miltias.

snip. Interfaet followed up on Australia deployment for a reason. No other nation could contribute forces to assist Australia initial operation to stabilise Dili, much less execute Australia first objective, evacuate Westerners.



Hell, if even basic auditing and accounting procedures is used, funds for an infantry regiment should be easily raised.

*Hits Pain Rack repeatadly, pints at Avatar* Excuse me? want to reasearch that a little better before I hit you again? :)
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Jesus, dont get me started on that...grrr. Well I will say one thing for the EU, they are honest about their trade idiocy, not something you can rely on with the US..but I put that down to strong US lobby groups more than government intent in most cases.
When the goverments stops taking 52%> in taxes they can stop with the support they are giving farmers as well, as of now, they created a situation that makes private farming without help practically impossible.
You reap as you sow. Just dont blame those nations who havent stuffed up for other governments silliness.
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Post by PainRack »

Stuart Mackey wrote:
*Hits Pain Rack repeatadly, pints at Avatar* Excuse me? want to reasearch that a little better before I hit you again? :)
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Stuart Mackey wrote:You reap as you sow. Just dont blame those nations who havent stuffed up for other governments silliness.
We didn't reap it, we only sow it, and this is how it's going to be anyway so what do I care.
And when have I blamed any other nation? WTF?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

His Divine Shadow wrote:We didn't reap it, we only sow it,
Or maybe thats the other way around, eh, fuck it.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

PainRack wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
*Hits Pain Rack repeatadly, pints at Avatar* Excuse me? want to reasearch that a little better before I hit you again? :)
Unless you're answering for Sea Skimmer, "Whack!". Don't."Whack!".Touch."Whack!".Me
*Bayonets painrack* I am asking you to research the Timor operation cause what I quoted of your post is inaccurate!
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:We didn't reap it, we only sow it,
Or maybe thats the other way around, eh, fuck it.
bleh..never mind, I cant be bothered...
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

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