B-tech Vs gundum

[Lt. Nebfer]

how would win in a fight

i'd love to see a Zaku II get pounced on by a star of elamentles...

[Shadowhawk]

A star of Elementals could probably take down a surprised Zaku II, but otherwise...

While the Mechs are stomping around trying to find the Mobile Suits and trying to get through minovsky interference, the Mobile Suits are already tracking them via IR and seismic sensors, have a pair of GM Snipers set up on a ridge, and a squad of Ground Types waiting on a hill 10 kilometers away with beam weaponry.

In other words, BT generally doesn't stand a chance against Gundam.

[Kuja]

Yeah, mobile suits are WAY more versitile than mechs. (Imagine a Zaku slicing up a Timberwolf with its heat hawk) And they are FAR more maneuverable in space.

[Typhonis 1]

depends on which Gundam the universal callender or Gundam wing??if its clans vs Gundam Wing......well a few bloodnames will have new openings. the MK2 suit from Stardust Memories could frag a Clan Warship with that nuke launcher it carries...and the Mk3 would be a nightmare as would the absolist from 08th ms team the frelling thing shot through a mountain

[SylasGaunt]

Well I'm going to assume OYW stuff..

Gundam Close combat weapons seem generally superior

Gundam ranges are WAY better. 10 kilometers for beam weapons, and for the Magella tank's cannon (which judging by what we see in 08th MS team fires shells moving at 5 kps IIRC).

Minovsky interference is going to play merry hell with BTech sensors, in all likelyhood they'll never see them coming.

Oh and mobile armors will eat the BTech boys alive.

[Vejut]

Dunno: are the guns about the same power? If so, BT might stand a chance, because IIRC, 1 or two shots does in an MS or Gundam, while a mech can take a serious beating, especially the larger ones. Plus, in some books (mainly William H. Keith, Jr.'s Grey Death saga), we've seen that mechs have ranges in the dozen km (Grayson used his LRMs to damage a building at this range, but it was either special shooting circumstances, or special shots to emphasize his uberbadassness...) , but for some reason (mainly because FASA wanted H-to-H to happen, and they didn't want frickin' huge maps...), engagement ranges and effective ranges in practice are much shorter.

Plus, in hand to hand, there is something to be said for the ol' Atlas pick-'em-up (mechs can lift up to 10% of their mass...Atlas masses 100 tons, while I don't know how much a gundam masses, I've seen numbers of 7-8T....

[Kuja]

Plus, in hand to hand, there is something to be said for the ol' Atlas pick-'em-up (mechs can lift up to 10% of their mass...Atlas masses 100 tons, while I don't know how much a gundam masses, I've seen numbers of 7-8T....

Even if the suits are circling, slashing with their melee weapons? If Altas reaches out, it'll pull back a stump. And let's not forget G-Gundam here, where the Gundams can perfectly mimic their pilots' actions. Burning Gundam could tear up a Galaxy of mechs.

[Vejut]

From what I've seen (admittedly not much), they don't seem too much quicker than a light mech, which an Atlas doesn't have much problem nailing.

In addition, you've pointed out that Gundam's have some kind of weirdo energy feild that inhibits sensors. So does BT--good enough that it reduces weapons capable of accurate fire over many km range in space, and probably a good long way in atmosphere to ranges less than 600m for an accurate shot. How are Gundams going to deal with that?

Also, somewhere here, firepower of mech weapons have been worked out--can't find it, particularly since older threads seem to lose their 2nd plus pages--IIRC, a point of damage was a couple GJ (IIRC, the cargo bay gun on B5 was only 500MW, meaning it'd take 4 sec of fire from it to equal a small laser). That means that Galaxy your gundam can take on will be fireing, assuming 40 pts of damage per mech, 40*2GJ*108=80TJ of energy at you every 10 seconds, for at least a minute, if not more. Somehow I doubt they're gonna miss with all 600+ shots...

[SylasGaunt]

Well a gauss rifle shell has a stated speed of Mach 2

Large lasers were in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, stated to be in the kilojoule range.

[Kuja]

From what I've seen (admittedly not much), they don't seem too much quicker than a light mech, which an Atlas doesn't have much problem nailing.

In addition, you've pointed out that Gundam's have some kind of weirdo energy feild that inhibits sensors. So does BT--good enough that it reduces weapons capable of accurate fire over many km range in space, and probably a good long way in atmosphere to ranges less than 600m for an accurate shot. How are Gundams going to deal with that?

Also, somewhere here, firepower of mech weapons have been worked out--can't find it, particularly since older threads seem to lose their 2nd plus pages--IIRC, a point of damage was a couple GJ (IIRC, the cargo bay gun on B5 was only 500MW, meaning it'd take 4 sec of fire from it to equal a small laser). That means that Galaxy your gundam can take on will be fireing, assuming 40 pts of damage per mech, 40*2GJ*108=80TJ of energy at you every 10 seconds, for at least a minute, if not more. Somehow I doubt they're gonna miss with all 600+ shots...

Don't forget, Gundam has capships as well, and some of them are pretty dangerous.

Gundam pilots are USED to targeting by sight, since Min. particles fuck the hell out of electronics.

And ms can usually accelerate pretty damn well, it just burns fuel.

But we're all forgetting something: Newtypes. Char, Amuro, Lalah. Like Jedi, newtypes have supernatural abilities. It doesn't matter how tough a mech is, a newtype can always predict its next move and destroy it.

[Kuja]

the MK2 suit from Stardust Memories could frag a Clan Warship with that nuke launcher it carries...

I think you're being a little too generous there. The Physalis destroyed 2/3 on the Feddie fleet w/one shot from that bazooka, and the anime went out of its way to show that HUNDREDS of ships were in the affected area.

[SylasGaunt]

With the stated number of shots per ton of ammo and hte stated velocity we've got the best a Gauss Rifle could be would be 43 megajoules.

[SylasGaunt]

Whoops made a mistake with my math, it's 21.7 megajoules for the Gauss Rifle, which puts BTech damage at 1.4 mJ per damage point.

[Typhonis 1]

I mean it could only take out one at a time since they havent stated the yield of the weapon

[Shadowhawk]

From what I've seen (admittedly not much), they don't seem too much quicker than a light mech, which an Atlas doesn't have much problem nailing.

While most mobile suits, at least on the ground, aren't much faster than light mechs (probably closer to medium mechs), you forget that every mobile suit is as big, or bigger, than an Atlas (mobile suits are rarely shorter than 16 meters).
And from what I've seen, Atlases suffer CBQ penalties since they're so big, slow, and heavy, and try to make up for it with flamers or machine guns on its rear. Mobile Suits excel in CBQ, from the lowly Zaku to the Nu Gundam to the friggin Orchis Weapons Platform. An Atlas vs a Zaku results in an Atlas with a heat hawk shaft protruding from the cockpit.

The only chance Mechs have is if they ambush them at medium range and with overwhelming numbers. Otherwise, even a Zaku pilot's just going to pull out a heat hawk, trigger his backpack jets, and DFA every damned Mech in the attacking force.
Every mobile suit has some sort of melee weapon, be it a heat hawk or heat rod (melts through armor pretty well) or a beam saber (melts through anything short of Gundarium with ease).

As for weapons...once beam weaponry became commonplace in UC, armor was rendered virtually useless, since it simply weighed the suit down while providing little real protection. Every Gundam beam weapon is effectively a long-range, high-power, rapid-fire PPC.

And if you want to throw in Gundam Wing here, Virgo and Virgo II suits are effectively invulnerable on the ground unless you get into CBQ. The Mechs are truely screwed then.
G Gundam...well, c'mon. It's like Dragonball Gundam.

[Vejut]

Actually, the flamers and MG's are fairly useless agianst mechs. Where they actually are used are for turning PBI's (poor bloody infantry) into...well, bloody pools. Most mech weapons are designed for anti-armor usage, and so aren't that great for anti-infantry (mainly because the only chance infantry has is a swarm attack, or uber-munching, like cassie southorn).

And the GJ number came from the speed of the weapon x it's mass per shot from the space game--10 sec or less to cover something like 14 km...somebody with Battle Space correct me if the numbers are wrong.

Close combat would still be like a circus midget with a lightsabre on stilts vs. your local D&D dwarf...one's bigger, and that beam gun might even be able to cut armor, but the other can do some--interesting things--with it's better strength.

also--so they don't mount much armor? Hey...nice, easy to blow up...

and further--you bring pilots into this, I'll pull out Morgan Kell, Kai Allard Liao, or Jamie Wolf, then we'll talk.

[Vejut]

er...change that 14km to 140...7km per hex (6800m, IIRC) * something like 20 hexes...but again, I ain't looking at my copy of AT2 right now...so I could be wrong...

[Shadowhawk]

Close combat would still be like a circus midget with a lightsabre on stilts vs. your local D&D dwarf...one's bigger, and that beam gun might even be able to cut armor, but the other can do some--interesting things--with it's better strength.

How, exactly, is a strong Mech going to grab a Mobile Suit to use that 'better strength' against it? Hell, for that matter, show that a Mech has better strength. Remember, a Mobile Suit has enough strength to move an Atlas-sized body around like it's a light Mech.

also--so they don't mount much armor? Hey...nice, easy to blow up...

You still have to hit a MS in the right spot to kill it, regardless of its armoring. Then you've got the whole problem of the Mechs trying to fight a highly manuverable opponent that prefers CQC with fire support from snipers with high-power beam rifles.
Oh, can't forget the mobile armors, either. It'd be fun to see an Absalas burn down entire galaxies of Mechs.

and further--you bring pilots into this, I'll pull out Morgan Kell, Kai Allard Liao, or Jamie Wolf, then we'll talk.

Then I'll pull out the pre-cognizant Amuro Ray and Char Anzable, the other Newtypes used in the wars, and others like Shiro Amada and Norris Packard. If I want to be cruel, I'll throw in the Wing Bishonen + Noin. If I want to be really cruel, I'll throw in the super saiyajin pilots of G Gundam.

[Kuja]

Yes, all the pilots above and more, have simply SUPERHUMAN abilites. Lalah was able to pilot remote control beam guns using only the power of her mind. Let's see...other newtypes...

Hathaway Noah
Kayra Su
Quess Paraya
Gyani Guss
Haman Khan
Elupe Puru
Puru Two and the Newtype Corps (thirteen pilots cloned from the original Elupe)
Challia Bull
Four Murasame

Gundam X newtypes

Jamil Neate
Shagia Frost
Tiffa Adil
Roybea Loy
Witz Sou
Olba Frost

Look, against pilots of these abilites, NO amount of planning and stategy will work. They can see what you do before even you know, and levitate objects, and can even throw small beam guns arounds the battlefield with just their minds. Only a suicidal maniac would even CONSIDER engaging these pilots.

[Vejut]

for one thing, they AREN'T throwing Atlas sized mechs around--they are the physical size of an atlas (I.E. just as tall), but they're nowhere near as heavy...at least from the stuff I've seen, which, granted, is mainly Gundam Wing, and mainly Gundam Wing fan material.

And I ask again, how powerful are gundam weapons in number terms? Mechs can mount a Gauss Rifle able to put out 37GJ (look for Battletech Vs. Other scifi, Page 2, Dark Saidar (I beleive Nitram got into it at some point as well...)), or more that 100 times your average Battleship round...and thats only about half of the armor on a mechs chest. If thats more than a Gundam can put out, newtypes don't matter, because they can't DO anything with their tactics.

And you have to hit it in "the right spot"? You mean I can't just blow the legs off...hey! It can't go anywhere! Or the arms...suddenly, you can't pick up that gun of yours to shoot it...or put a round through your reactor, etc.

Strategy won't work on 'em eh? Sounds like a damn boring series if the characters know whats going to happen before it does...which makes me suspect that the ability, at least to the extent you claim their precog, isn't quite that great. Wouldn't know for sure as I haven't seen it though.

Morgan Kell was able to basically convice his oppenents targeting computers that he didn't exist. He could walk into a battle between mech forces, fight till his ammo ran dry, then walk out untouched.
Kai Allard Liao is Count Nevermiss--I mean, it's just insane they way he shoots in the novels. Jamie Wolf is probably the foremost tactical mind still alive in BT, and quite the pilot as well...Hanse Davion was probably better at strategy, but he died of a heart attack.

I'd have to say that blowing through a galaxy of mechs with one gundam is bull, though one on one could go either way.

[Kuja]

Strategy won't work on 'em eh? Sounds like a damn boring series if the characters know whats going to happen before it does...which makes me suspect that the ability, at least to the extent you claim their precog, isn't quite that great. Wouldn't know for sure as I haven't seen it though.

Please do not denounce Gundam before you've seen it. The series pits newtypes againt EACH OTHER, which makes for some absolutely incredible battles.

And you have to hit it in "the right spot"? You mean I can't just blow the legs off...hey! It can't go anywhere! Or the arms...suddenly, you can't pick up that gun of yours to shoot it...or put a round through your reactor, etc.

Mobile Suits mount weapons all over their body. Head vulcans, chest vulcans, missile launchers. And many of them have thrusters mounted backback style, so yel bowing leg off, while it would take them out of combat, would not prevent the pilot from escaping, especially in space.

Morgan Kell was able to basically convice his oppenents targeting computers that he didn't exist. He could walk into a battle between mech forces, fight till his ammo ran dry, then walk out untouched.
Kai Allard Liao is Count Nevermiss--I mean, it's just insane they way he shoots in the novels. Jamie Wolf is probably the foremost tactical mind still alive in BT, and quite the pilot as well...Hanse Davion was probably better at strategy, but he died of a heart attack.

As I've stated before, MS pilots don't rely on computers because Minovksy particles foul them up to all hell. And we'll see how well heros do when pitted against each other.

I'd have to say that blowing through a galaxy of mechs with one gundam is bull, though one on one could go either way.

Have you watched any of G Gundam? No? Watch Domon Kasshu and Chibodee Crocket for a few episodes before makeing that denial.

And then there's Gundam X, where virtually all Gundams have some massive cannon that can utterly annihilate armies in a shot or two.

[Utsanomiko]

Newtypes only show up in the last 3rd of the first Gundam series, Gundam Zeta and ZZ, Char's Counter Attack, (iirc) the post- CCA series, and the Alternate Universe series Gundam X. So that excludes all other AU series, Gundam 0080, 0080, and 08th MS Team.

The point of the Earth Federation's Gudams was that they were test types for the technology they planned to implement for their mobile suits in the last half of the OYW. Only 8 RX-78 prototype/test type Gundams, and 22 RX-79(G) Limited Production Ground type Gundams were produced. They were by their very nature too expensive to mass-produce, as they all had Fusion reactors over 50% more powerful than any of Zeon's MS, Minovsky-based beam weaponry, and thrust outputs several times higher than anything the Feds would have to contend with.

They knew they couldn't win the war by deploying a 'gladiator army', so they used the Gundams to test out the most efficient level of production, and thus they designed the significantly less-powerful RGM-79 GM (Gundam Mass-production), which still nontheless easilly contended with Zeon's late-war models such as the MS-09R Rick Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You mean Mega Particle beam weapons, Darth. And they were the same scale as those on a battleship (one-two hit kills).

[Kuja]

Newtypes only show up in the last 3rd of the first Gundam series, Gundam Zeta and ZZ, Char's Counter Attack, (iirc) the post- CCA series, and the Alternate Universe series Gundam X. So that excludes all other AU series, Gundam 0080, 0080, and 08th MS Team.

Only? That's a LOT of newtypes. And that's 7 different series! And don't forget to add the newtypes from the side stories, like Yu Kajima. And are you implying that because Heero, Duo, and Trowa aren't newtypes, they're useless? Normal humans CAN beat newtypes, it's just extremely difficult.

The point of the Earth Federation's Gudams was that they were test types for the technology they planned to implement for their mobile suits in the last half of the OYW. Only 8 RX-78 prototype/test type Gundams, and 22 RX-79(G) Limited Production Ground type Gundams were produced. They were by their very nature too expensive to mass-produce, as they all had Fusion reactors over 50% more powerful than any of Zeon's MS, Minovsky-based beam weaponry, and thrust outputs several times higher than anything the Feds would have to contend with.

So? This is trivia. Don't forget the other side story MS, like Heavy Gundam, Blue Destiny, or Guncannon Heavyarms.

They knew they couldn't win the war by deploying a 'gladiator army', so they used the Gundams to test out the most efficient level of production, and thus they designed the significantly less-powerful RGM-79 GM (Gundam Mass-production), which still nontheless easilly contended with Zeon's late-war models such as the MS-09R Rick Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog.

No, they mass-produced the GM because Gundam had an unacceptably high unit-cost rate, and the GM was condidered to be 'streamlined' ie it had the weapons it needed but not the extras Gundam carried.

[VF5SS]

Just throwin' out some official numbers...

Model number: RGM-79
Code name: GM
Unit type: mass production general purpose mobile suit
Manufacturer: Earth Federal Forces
Operator: Earth Federal Forces
Rollout: UC 0079
First deployment: UC 0079
Accommodation: pilot only, in standard cockpit in torso
Dimensions: overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters
Weight: empty 41.2 metric tons; max gross 58.8 metric tons
Construction: titanium alloy on semi-monocoque frame
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 1250 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 24000 kg, 4 x 1870 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.94 G; 180-degree turn time 1.6 seconds; maximum ground running speed 102 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 6000 meters
Fixed armaments: 2 x 60 mm vulcan gun, fire-linked, mounted in head; beam saber, power rated at 0.38 MW, stored in recharge rack in backpack, hand-carried in use
Optional hand armaments: beam spray gun, powered by rechargable energy cap; 100 mm machinegun, clip-fed; shield


Model number: MS-14A
Code name: Gelgoog
Unit type: mass production high efficiency general purpose mobile suit
Manufacturer: Zeonic Company
Operator(s): Principality of Zeon; African Liberation Front; civilians
Rollout: December UC 0079
First deployment: December UC 0079
Accommodation: pilot only, in standard cockpit in torso (later refitted and replica units equipped with linear seat/panoramic monitor cockpit)
Dimensions: head height 19.2 meters
Weight: empty 42.1 metric tons; max gross 73.3 metric tons
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 1440 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 24500 kg, 5 x 2500 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.84 G; 180-degree turn time 1.5 seconds; maximum ground running speed 180 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 6300 meters
Fixed armaments: twin beam sword, stored in recharge rack on back, hand-carried in use
Optional hand armaments: beam rifle, powered by rechargable energy cap; shield, can be optionally stored on backpack