So damn hypocritical

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-03 06:42pm

not aimed at Lord Wong, but other people. You know who you are.

Anyway, I am myself an Athiest, but really it seems as if you're beginning to shove your "logic" down people's throats, becrying religous fanatics who do the same. You hypocritical scum make me sick.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-03 06:49pm

Well, they're not on church parking lots passing out pamphlets, or threating to ban people who aren't Atheist, so it doesn't qualify as hypocrisy to me.

As for that march on D.C., it's not hypocrisy, jsut a bad idea.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-10-03 06:50pm

Um, Ray, you are starting to Troll.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-03 06:51pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Well, they're not on church parking lots passing out pamphlets, or threating to ban people who aren't Atheist, so it doesn't qualify as hypocrisy to me.

As for that march on D.C., it's not hypocrisy, jsut a bad idea.

Oh, yeah?

Edi wrote:All right, people, simmer down and get your fucking concepts and facts straightened out before you start spewing idiocy all over the place. No offense, but most of you seem to be confusing some very important concepts here and we need to get that out of the way first.

The question of abortion is about extinguishing a potential life. An impregnated egg cell is unarguably human, in the sense that it contains human DNA (what else, crocodile DNA?), but it is not a person, it's just a potential person. Even a fetus is not yet a person, but a potential person (until a certain point of time has been passed). Why the distinction? Well, the reason for that is that we are drilled with the precept that humans have a right to life, but it is always used in the context of persons. A fetus is not yet a person.

That's the preface for the real meat of the issue, which is the question of when the right to life is achieved. Rationally, rights derive from interests. It is impossible for the fetus to have any interests at all until it develops cognitive abilities, which happens only after a certain point of time during the pregnancy when the brain has been sufficiently developed. Therefore, before that point the only interests that come into play are those of the mother. So may I suggest that the lot of you get off your high horses and eat a nice, large serving of STFU instead of getting all in a lather? And don't bother with the point that you can see a fetus reacting to being prodded in ultrasound pictures, they do that even before cognitive ability develops because a fetus develops the neural capability of reacting to external stimuli before it develops cognitive ability. The reaction is no different than our reflexively withdrawing our hand from a burning hot object if we accidentally touch one.

Abortion after the cognitive abilities develop can be compared to murder (not in all cases, it depends on the particulars of each case), and partial birth abortions and that other kind which are sort of similar are IMO murder, because the baby could often be delivered via cesarean section. At least that's the case in most of the developed world, in many third world countries it might be the only way to save the mother's life if the pregnancy is risky and where there is no guarantee whatsoever of the baby's survival past infancy.

If you're objecting on religious grounds, how about you show some evidence for the validity of your beliefs first and then we'll consider it, otherwise you lose by default.

Now as for those potential remedies, the most ridiculous one I've ever seen is the exhortation to abstain from sex. Humans are wired to seek out sex, it's instinctive behavior. How many of you are willing to abstain yourselves? If you're not, then how about another large serving of STFU?

And how come most of you seem to assume that it's always the woman's fault? It takes two to tango, and just because the woman is left bearing the child it's always her fault? The guy has no responsibility at all, he's free to go stick his dick in any woman who wants him with no obligation on his part to see that protection is used? Seems like a third serving of STFU is in order, don't you agree?

Get your facts straight and try to have an idea of what it is you're discussing before launching into long-winded diatribes about it. Sometimes it's better to remain silent and let people wonder if you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubts.

And if any of you got offended by what I said, too fucking bad. This is one of those issues where I will not remain silent. I would not encourage a woman to have an abortion if she got pregnant, and the idea is somewhat disquieting (no doubt due to the instinct to nurture that has been hardwired into us all by evolution), but I would not oppose her right to have an abortion for the reasons outlined above. My personal feelings do not override the principles involved.

By the way, has anyone here ever wondered why usually the most outspoken opponents of abortion seem to be men? Especially religious men, and among that group, most notably the Catholic church. Easy for them to say, because they won't be stuck with raising the child, the woman is (most of the time, there are exceptions, but they are so rare they hardly merit mention).

that's just one example

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-03 06:55pm

Well, I think my post was sensible , and Nick's too.

And you really could use a girl right now. Stress down and plug your brain again

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-03 06:57pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Well, I think my post was sensible , and Nick's too.

And you really could use a girl right now. Stress down and plug your brain again

but really, both sides are really pissing me off. Right now, I don't give a fucking damn about fetus rights, woman's rights, life at conception, etc. Why not just fucking shoot the pregnant girl in the fucking head? There's your mutual solution to abortion right there.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-10-03 06:59pm

Happy faced Ray? There's the Ray we all know and love!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-03 07:17pm

Simmer down, Ray. Generalizing about all atheists based on that march in DC is ridiculous; the fact that they include satanists disqualifies it as an atheist march. Moreover, accusing atheists of being like fundies because we dare to use logic to criticize clearly erroneous claims is also ridiculous.

If there's something wrong with the logic, then FIND THE FUCKING FLAW. Otherwise, you are just pissing in the wind, bitching because we're not being polite enough.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-10-03 07:20pm

Go sleep, Ray, go sleep.

You're just thinking too much.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-03 07:21pm

Ray's just having a five-alarm shitfit, Wong. Don't worry it'll pass soon.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-10-03 07:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:Simmer down, Ray. Generalizing about all atheists based on that march in DC is ridiculous; the fact that they include satanists disqualifies it as an atheist march. Moreover, accusing atheists of being like fundies because we dare to use logic to criticize clearly erroneous claims is also ridiculous.

RayCav of ASVS wrote:Anyway, I am myself an Athiest,

Lord Wong, as you can see I myself am an athiest.

If there's something wrong with the logic, then FIND THE FUCKING FLAW. Otherwise, you are just pissing in the wind, bitching because we're not being polite enough.

It's not the logic that's wrong...it's the presentation. In my book, using "STFU" repeatedly and talking about eating fetuses is shoving in my book. Also note that I specifically said this wasn't aimed at you. And really, I know "polite" isn't the order of the day, but please, they were just stating their fucking beliefs and right away people use "STFU" on them. Really, WE ALL NEED TO BE A LITTLE POLITE SOME FUCKING TIME, SO DON'T BITCH ABOUT ME BITCHING ABOUT BEING POLITE!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-03 07:23pm

RayCav of ASVS wrote:Lord Wong, as you can see I myself am an athiest.

OK, so why are you criticizing other atheists based on that ridiculous march in DC?

It's not the logic that's wrong...it's the presentation. In my book, using "STFU" repeatedly and talking about eating fetuses is shoving in my book.

It's also understandable when facing the "broken record syndrome".

Also note that I specifically said this wasn't aimed at you. And really, I know "polite" isn't the order of the day, but please, they were just stating their fucking beliefs and right away people use "STFU" on them. Really, WE ALL NEED TO BE A LITTLE POLITE SOME FUCKING TIME, SO DON'T BITCH ABOUT ME BITCHING ABOUT BEING POLITE!

Actually, that's not true at all. People gave polite responses right away, and then when faced with endless, mindless repetition of the same claims without any attempt to debate the actual points, they started getting frustrated.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-03 07:25pm

Ray I advise you to get as laid as soon as possible

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-10-03 07:33pm

Or smoke some pot.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-03 07:40pm

Ray, get laid (or the nearest possible equivalent

)

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-10-03 07:41pm

Yeah, man. Smoke a bowl, then beat off. It'll be good for you.

oberon · Post by **oberon** » 2002-10-03 07:41pm

Do both

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-10-03 08:20pm

I seem to have offended someone. I do apologize.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-03 08:54pm

What Ray needs is some Zoloft. I take it so I don't go insane, like my brother. You've seem to have changed in the last few days. On Tuesday, you were so different, now, you're requesting to be banned! Still, you're pretty cool.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-03 09:21pm

did you forget to take your haidols?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-10-04 04:28am

This threat is pointless. And now locked.