What has happened to the Unknown Regions

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-11-08 01:57pm

I mean the Imperials control a huge territory their, lead by Admiral Parck, they have Thrawns knowledge, loads of shipyards, ships and planets... they cant just sit there and ignore the galaxy!!!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-08 02:04pm

Lex wrote:I mean the Imperials control a huge territory their,

The Imperials mostly just mapped it. And the Unknown Regions is mostly empty space and boring crap. There's a reason it is ignored. So how is this that significant?

Lex wrote:lead by Admiral Parck,

A traitor to the Empire who sounds like Hitler ranting about Bolsheviks over the border. I'm personally underwhelmed by Thrawn's fanatics.

Lex wrote:they have Thrawns knowledge,

Which is why they needed Thrawn back and were so concerned? How does being founded by the man give them his knowledge?

Lex wrote:loads of shipyards, ships and planets...

Unjustified assumption by Mara. We've been quite deprived of any evidence for all this hidden shit.

Lex wrote:they cant just sit there and ignore the galaxy!!!

Given that Sydnic Mitth'raw'noruodo's Household Phalanx is simply a detachment of the Chiss Expansionary Defense Force on leave which is aided by a collection of Chiss criminals/exiles and Imperial traitors, and the Chiss are largely xenophobic, insular, and monolithic, I think its easy to see why they are isolationist. Especially when their ships mostly cannot leave their own territory.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-11-09 03:01am

when mara, luke and R2 visit that data center mara watches some data where she finds out bout the ships, planets and shipyards, so they definitly exist

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-11-09 05:41am

Lex wrote:when mara, luke and R2 visit that data center mara watches some data where she finds out bout the ships, planets and shipyards, so they definitly exist

If your talking about Vission Of The Future, she does nothing but speculate that there MIGHT be shipyards, intel centers, troop concentrations e.t.c. She never confirms it. Further, the Chiss who control said area clearly do not have this. Nor does Thrawns splinter faction. Or the Empire.

Thus, they clearly don't exist.[/img]

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-11-10 06:48am

no, if u re-read that passage u will see that Artoo lets her see a the data in the chiss room, where this shipyards ect. are mapped.... she doesnt speculate

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-11-10 07:25am

I just read it. Your wrong. No confirming of Maras statements ever takes place. The only thing that even comes close is when Stent says that many Chiss were arriving at Syndic Mitth'raw'nuruodo's bases. Which we know they have. But absoloutly nothing on the scale of what Mara hypothesised. Unless you can provide a page number of quote to confirm this, I accept your concession

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-10 03:55pm

Well, there's something in the Unknown Regions that is worth having, if it could "turn the Empire from victim to vanquisher in a single day".

Relevant quote:

"Nirauan's High Tower was Thrawn's secret weapon--an information repository sometimes known as the Hand of Thrawn. The stone fortress had been the grand admiral's base of power, back when he had been sent by the Emperor to scout the Unknown Regions. Thrawn had succeeded beyond the Emperor's wildest dreams: an immense new swath of previously undiscovered territory had been meticulously mapped and catalouged, representing a bottomless new source of resources that could turn the Empire from victim to vanquisher in a single day." - Essential Chronology, P. 149

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-10 04:41pm

They finished exploring them and had to rename them?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-10 05:18pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Well, there's something in the Unknown Regions that is worth having, if it could "turn the Empire from victim to vanquisher in a single day".

Relevant quote:

"Nirauan's High Tower was Thrawn's secret weapon--an information repository sometimes known as the Hand of Thrawn. The stone fortress had been the grand admiral's base of power, back when he had been sent by the Emperor to scout the Unknown Regions. Thrawn had succeeded beyond the Emperor's wildest dreams: an immense new swath of previously undiscovered territory had been meticulously mapped and catalouged, representing a bottomless new source of resources that could turn the Empire from victim to vanquisher in a single day." - Essential Chronology, P. 149

The problem with this quote is, that it is from a source, that is written from the point-of-view of a NR-historian, whose ideas about the imperial/chiss-territory in the UR is probabely based on the report of Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade.

And while i don´t think, that there are only a lone fortress and a few gunboats (in Dark Journey the HoT has its own academies (plural)), i doubt, that there is enough to have a large or lasting impact on the galaxy as a whole.

Side-question: Do we know, how big a Chiss-Phalanx is?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-10 05:37pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:*snip*

And you're telling me you can't tell the media sensationalism/literary hyperbole in something like that from the Historical Council?

More direct observation has show no substantial Imperial holdouts in the Unknown Regions, and any less direct source to the contrary is wrong. Direct observation has ruled against.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-10 05:39pm

FTeik wrote:Side-question: Do we know, how big a Chiss-Phalanx is?

It represents the single defense force of a single Chiss colony. Keep in mind, Naboo's Chommel Sector has 30,000 dependencies, and has a much greater industrial/infrastructure base than the Chiss, and the Chiss are also technologically inferior to the Chommel Sector.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-10 06:11pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
FTeik wrote:Side-question: Do we know, how big a Chiss-Phalanx is?
It represents the single defense force of a single Chiss colony. Keep in mind, Naboo's Chommel Sector has 30,000 dependencies, and has a much greater industrial/infrastructure base than the Chiss, and the Chiss are also technologically inferior to the Chommel Sector.

That still doesn´t answer, how big a Phalanx is.

And what makes you think, that the industrial/infrastructure base is bigger besides the fact, that there are 30,000 (30,000? didn´t the AOTC:ICS speak about 40,000 dependencies?) colonies? For all we know most of those worlds could be mudholes ruled by pacifistic, complacent Naboo.

And on what is the idea of technological inferiority based on?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-10 06:16pm

FTeik is correct, there are 40,000 settled dependencies, as well as 36 full-member worlds.

I'm sure IP will dig up the Star Wars Gamer quotes where they say things such as the Chiss's lack of nav computer and other examples of Claw Craft inferiority to starships of the galaxy proper. (the whole article should be stickied for such instances).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-10 06:23pm

FTeik. I am not arguing with someone who doesn't see how a Sector of 40,000 settled dependencies, 36 full-member republic worlds, 300,000,000 barren stars is equal to the positively amazing 20-something Chiss worlds.

If you don't see the economic and population disparity you must be mentally handicapped. And every sector has defense forces--they were financed by the Senate.

EDIT: I'm really sick of this crap, so thusly I present...

Yes, the Chiss are overhyped

Gamer 5 Says So

More Hype debunking

The Chiss Are From 1984

Thrawn Was Overrated

Refugee confirms backward Chiss

Beating Down Fteik's BS Before

Spanking Zahn's One-Upism

Chiss Are Racists

Household Phalanx Former-Imps are Traitors

Vympel, could you sticky this list or something?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-10 06:27pm

It also appears this topic has been discussed at great, tedious lengths here.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-11 05:36am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:FTeik. I am not arguing with someone who doesn't see how a Sector of 40,000 settled dependencies, 36 full-member republic worlds, 300,000,000 barren stars is equal to the positively amazing 20-something Chiss worlds.

I never claimed Chiss-space/territory/infrastructure is equal to the Chommel-sector. What i questioned was the quality or comparability of those worlds. Ryloth and Rhodia are also republic worlds, but they can hardly be compared to Kuat or Coruscant. And as you can see from my quote above i also stated, that i doubt, that whatever is there in the UR would have a large impact on the galaxy as a whole.

FTeik:And while i don´t think, that there are only a lone fortress and a few gunboats (in Dark Journey the HoT has its own academies (plural)), i doubt, that there is enough to have a large or lasting impact on the galaxy as a whole.

If you don't see the economic and population disparity you must be mentally handicapped. And every sector has defense forces--they were financed by the Senate.

Five trillion IIRC for Csilla (one trillion for Coruscant according to official sources) and we haven´t seen those defense-forces of a sector in TPM.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-11 05:55pm

FTeik wrote:*snip nitpicking*

FTeik wrote:Five trillion IIRC for Csilla (one trillion for Coruscant according to official sources) and we haven´t seen those defense-forces of a sector in TPM.

The Chiss Inferiority Vs. Republic/Empire Galaxy

Coruscant is said to have more than one trillion. At least a few hundred in at least one source. Any defence force with a single Dreadnought vastly outperforms the CEDF, which cannot deploy a single vessel over 300 metres that can leave their territory because it lacks even an elementry hyperdrive.

Hell, Chiss technology is so woefully underpar in areas like data storage they use friggin' books to store information about the Unknown Regions (which is another indirect clue that there's virtually nothing there compared to the galaxy proper).

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-11-12 02:41am

omg see the prob is i am certainly not talking about the chiss.... Thrawn was given forces to get control over the unknown regions, this should still exist as well as everything he built up there... why shouldnt there be any shipyards, based on your views???? thats a joke dude the unknown regions contain as many stars as any outer rim terretory, because galaxies rarely care about your views... the terretory is huge and thrawn is excellent in conquering and building, i beat up there is much more to find than you think

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-11-12 02:46am

Lex wrote:omg see the prob is i am certainly not talking about the chiss.... Thrawn was given forces to get control over the unknown regions, this should still exist as well as everything he built up there... why shouldnt there be any shipyards, based on your views???? thats a joke dude the unknown regions contain as many stars as any outer rim terretory, because galaxies rarely care about your views... the terretory is huge and thrawn is excellent in conquering and building, i beat up there is much more to find than you think

**SWOOSH**

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-12 06:31am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
FTeik wrote:*snip nitpicking*
?

FTeik wrote:Five trillion IIRC for Csilla (one trillion for Coruscant according to official sources) and we haven´t seen those defense-forces of a sector in TPM.
The Chiss Inferiority Vs. Republic/Empire Galaxy

Coruscant is said to have more than one trillion.

At least a few hundred in at least one source.
Source?

Any defence force with a single Dreadnought vastly outperforms the CEDF, which cannot deploy a single vessel over 300 metres that can leave their territory because it lacks even an elementry hyperdrive.
And fifteen of those were slaughtered by twelve Chiss-patrolcraft.

According to Gamer5 they have "impressive fleets" (something you deliberately overlooked when commenting those quotes) and the question is, what is an "impressive fleet"? The empires fleet of 2 Carrack-Cruisers and six Corellian gunships in TAB? Vader´s taskforce? An augmented sector-fleet?

It is BELIEVED, that the Chiss have no vessel longer than 300 metres and even if, this doesn´t say anything about the vessels fighting-abilities (i should start searching for quotes concerning things like Warrior-Class-gunships and the like). A Feddie Sovereign is 680 metres long, but would probabely be defeated by a SW-system patrolcraft.

We also already discussed the lack of navcomputers (not hyperdrives).

You care to explain how the chiss managed to distribute their navigational beacons without being able to navigate in the first place? Or why Jagged Fel is concerned, that the Chiss could turn into competitors in the search for Zonoma Sekot if they are unable to leave their (according to you) insignificant section of space in ForceHeretic: Remnant?

Hell, Chiss technology is so woefully underpar in areas like data storage they use friggin' books to store information about the Unknown Regions (which is another indirect clue that there's virtually nothing there compared to the galaxy proper).

Yet they are somehow able to manage the logistics for "impressive fleets" (Gamer5) or the distribution of goods from their colonies to their 5 trillion population.
It is also said, that they have developed comparable technologies to the galaxy proper (despite being on their own in contrast to the research-base of one million worlds) and the storage-capacities of their computers should be an exception?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-12 06:45pm

Lex wrote:omg see the prob is i am certainly not talking about the chiss.... Thrawn was given forces to get control over the unknown regions, this should still exist as well as everything he built up there... why shouldnt there be any shipyards, based on your views???? thats a joke dude the unknown regions contain as many stars as any outer rim terretory, because galaxies rarely care about your views... the terretory is huge and thrawn is excellent in conquering and building, i beat up there is much more to find than you think

Thrawn was given one, count em, ONE IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER. Did you read the Hand Of Thrawn Duology? Anything Mara Jade said regarding the Chiss terratories is pure speculation on her part. In the NJO we see nothing of a huge Chiss Fleet you're wanking over.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-11-12 09:16pm

I love the subjective rising of "impressive fleets" over the simple matter of fact that the Chiss lack competant navigation by galactic standards, lack the infrastructure or industry to build anything massing close to galactic standards in the way of ships-of-the-line, and the simple matter that twenty-nine single worlds are supposed to compete with even the tiny industry and infrastructure of some outlier sectors containing over a thousand times the systems and resources of the Chiss.

And there's no proof for what Palpatine's private fleet consisted of. Justify your Dreadnought claim.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-11-13 10:13am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I love the subjective rising of "impressive fleets" over the simple matter of fact that the Chiss lack competant navigation by galactic standards, lack the infrastructure or industry to build anything massing close to galactic standards in the way of ships-of-the-line, and the simple matter that twenty-nine single worlds are supposed to compete with even the tiny industry and infrastructure of some outlier sectors containing over a thousand times the systems and resources of the Chiss.

And there's no proof for what Palpatine's private fleet consisted of. Justify your Dreadnought claim.

In other words i have nothing new to say, so i repeat old arguments about the Chommel-sector with its 36 major worlds and 40,000 colonies of which we have no idea in what conditon they are (see my comment about mudholes).

Subjective? This is from the same source you use to base your other claims on.

We also already discussed the lack of "competent" navigation (which seems to work just fine for the Chiss) and the possible reasons for that. Not to mention, that you failed to provide a possible explenation for the questions i asked concerning the impossibility of the Chiss leaving their territory.

Concerning their infrastructure, what have we really seen of this? How many of the 28 Chiss-colonies have we seen so far? I freely admit, i haven´t read book two and three of the ForceHeretic-Trilogy, so if there is anything, that hints at them please post it.
According to Gamer5 everything 5 trillion Chiss on Csilla need is imported from their colonies. Can you imagine how many ships are needed to transport those goods? Especially if their (believed to be) biggest ships are no longer than 300 metres?

We get glimpses of how good or how massive the infrastructure in the Outer Rim of the Galactic Republic is with "Cloak of Deception" and everything worth mentioning is done by the Trade-Federation or other galaxy-spanning organisations like the Mining Guild.
And of course a paranoid, xenophobic species in the outer rim, surrounded by enemies and totally on its own might have different ideas about the necessity of a military-industrial-complex, than the people of an outer-rim-sector, that is part of a galaxy-spanning government, which has known peace for at least thousand years.

According to "Vision of the Future" Palpatine sent fifteen of his best ships with his best soldiers to destroy the outbound-flight-project. I wouldn´t be surprised, if those ships would be the same fleet, that destroyed Chaamas, but that is pure speculation. The exact quote goes something like (i have to translate back to english): "On the one side handpicked units of Palpatines private army equipted with 15 top-of-the-line battleships, on the other side Commander Mit´hraw´nuruodo and perhaps twelve little and insignificant vessels of the boarder-patrol."

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-11-13 03:47pm

15 top-of-the-line battleships

Empasis mine

Where does it say Dreadnaughts in that wee passage you quote. Oh thats right, everything you've brought up is assumption and fan-wank.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-11-13 06:14pm

Strrrike three. They did NOT say 'Fifteen top of the line Battleships'

What the quote SAYS is this:

' "Actualy the ruling Chiss families never had the chance to decide one way or the other," Parck said. "Palpatine had already decided that the Jedi represented a grave threat to the Old Republic and had sent an assault force into the region to quietly take care of the Outbound Flight when they showed up."

"And there they were, busily setting up their ambush, when Thrawn found them"

He shook his head. "You have to understand the situation, Mara to truely appreciate it. On one side were handpicked units of Palpatine's own private army, equiped with fifteen top-line combat ships. On the other side were Commander Mitth'raw'nuruodo of the Chiss Expansionary Defence and perhaps twelve small and insignificant boarder patrol ships."

"I appreciate it just fine," Mara said, suppressing a shudder. "How badly did Thrawn slaughter them?"

"Utterly," Parck said, the ghost of a smile creasing his face. "I belive only a single one of Palpatines ships remained capable of flight, and that only because Thrawn wanted some of the invaders left alive to interrogate." '

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What has happened to the Unknown Regions

What has happened to the Unknown Regions

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