Job equity for nonsmokers

[Darth Wong]

A tangent from the latest "smoking" thread:

Since smokers believe they have the "right" to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to light one up, should nonsmokers be allowed to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to masturbate to Internet porn?

[Joe]

They may think they have the right, but they don't have the right. Being a smoker obviously isn't a legally protected status from job discrimination.

[TrailerParkJawa]

The reason should not matter, smokers get away with many mini-breaks even when they are hourly. If I took lots of little breaks to go outside and drink a soda or eat something it would cause me to get an unfavorable review. However in some professional environments all that matters is do they get the work done. Specific hours dont matter, per se. Although I think what you are getting at is they get cut slack, when we dont, which is not fair.

[Joe]

Oh, you weren't speaking about legalism. Mea culpa.

I guess it depends on whether or not they are skilled enough to have reasonable control over the terms of their employment.

[RedImperator]

A tangent from the latest "smoking" thread:

Since smokers believe they have the "right" to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to light one up, should nonsmokers be allowed to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to masturbate to Internet porn?

Who says this? At my job and every other job I ever had, everybody is entitled to regular breaks under state law, and that's when smokers had to light up. If I started taking smoke breaks any time I felt like it, I'd get fired.

Granted these have all been hourly positions. Salaried employees might behave differently, but somehow I doubt there are scads of managers out there who let their employees take breaks anytime they feel like.

And if smokers are entitled to regular ten minute breaks, then yes, in all fairness, nonsmokers should have ten minutes to bullshit at the water cooler, eat a snack, read the newspaper, whatever (jacking off creates sanitary issues--would you like to work in a cubicle someone spooged in?).

[Darth Wong]

Who says this? At my job and every other job I ever had, everybody is entitled to regular breaks under state law, and that's when smokers had to light up. If I started taking smoke breaks any time I felt like it, I'd get fired.

It's not so much of a problem in the city where we have a fairly progressive attitude toward smoking (although it's still there), but in rural communities, the smoke break is considered a constitutional right.

Granted these have all been hourly positions. Salaried employees might behave differently, but somehow I doubt there are scads of managers out there who let their employees take breaks anytime they feel like.

Spend an afternoon reading a novel outside an office building sometime. You'll see a lot of people taking their smoke breaks at irregular times throughout the day.

And if smokers are entitled to regular ten minute breaks, then yes, in all fairness, nonsmokers should have ten minutes to bullshit at the water cooler, eat a snack, read the newspaper, whatever (jacking off creates sanitary issues--would you like to work in a cubicle someone spooged in?).

Generally speaking, white-collar workers have their own desks, so the only semen residue on the desk would be your own.

[Tsyroc]

A tangent from the latest "smoking" thread:

Since smokers believe they have the "right" to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to light one up, should nonsmokers be allowed to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to masturbate to Internet porn?

I acutally used the "I'm taking my smoke break" excuse on my Chief once in the Navy. At the time there was no smoking allowed onboard ship so whenever people wanted to smoke they had to leave the ship and walk to the end of the pier to smoke. Of course if you're going to walk all that way you might as well smoke more than one.

Anyway, I'd been running my ass off all morning and I finally got a moment to sit down and my Chief made some crack about me just sitting there. I'd only been there for a few moments so I made the smoke break crack and he left me alone.

On further contemplation I think he might have known I'd been busy all morning but I didn't think so at the time.


The additional breaks that smokers get used to be especially evident in the military. It's one of those things were smoking counts as doing something but just sitting or standing (ie taking a break) is doing nothing. I don't know how many times I got stuck doing more work because I "wasn't doing anything" but the smokers were smoking so they got to keep smoking.

[RedImperator]

It's not so much of a problem in the city where we have a fairly progressive attitude toward smoking (although it's still there), but in rural communities, the smoke break is considered a constitutional right.

A few well timed suspensions/firings should fix that. <shrug> It's not like rural areas don't ever have misconceptions about the nature of rights.

Spend an afternoon reading a novel outside an office building sometime. You'll see a lot of people taking their smoke breaks at irregular times throughout the day.

If they're salaried, they can take their breaks anytime they feel like it--though if you mean the same people are taking lots of breaks, then yeah, that's a problem. Then again, so is standing around the water cooler bullshitting for forty minutes and taking a 3 hour lunch. That's a job for management to deal with, not a character flaw on the part of smokers (give most employees an excuse to get paid for doing nothing and a boss leniant enough to let them and they'll take it).

Generally speaking, white-collar workers have their own desks, so the only semen residue on the desk would be your own.

I'm pretty sure that violates the health code somewhere. What if he jizzed all over a document that later wound up on your desk? Though I guess there's nothing wrong in theory with taking an issue of Hustler into the men's room, as long as you flush.

[Chardok]

Silly child. When a superior asks you what you are doing, and you are really doing nothing. You say "I'm standing by, Sergeant." (That's what we did.)

I've never had "Smoke breaks" (Except in the military, and I never asked, it was always when the team/squad leader gave the order to take a knee, (Is it okay to have a cigarette, Sergeant? Yeah, Smoke if ya got em. Klix, gimme a cigarette. Yes, Sergeant ) (this is a cross post)

I take the breaks I am allowed, nothing more, nothing less. and, by and large, I see the same thing, aside from people bulshitting in the office after their breaks are over, and the ratio of smokers to non are blah blah blah. In fact, I would go so far as to say smokers are more acutely aware of the time away from their desk.

Case in point: I know it takes me 11 minutes to enter my break code on the phone, head down to the first floor, have a cigarette, come back upstairs, wash my hands, and go to my desk. which leaves me time for a short post and perusal of the forums for new posts (SD.net is on my comp all day at work) before I log back into the phone. (I get two 15 minute breaks) and lunch, well I get an hour, and I have never been late getting back. (Well, once....emergency, nothing to do with smoking.)


That's just me, though. I can't speak for the working population at large, only what I have observed/done.

[Montcalm]

Depending on how many smoking break they take every day,the time they`re not working should be counted the remove this from the paycheck.

[Darth Wong]

In my experience, the workplace tolerance for smoker misbehaviour boils down to one single factor: does the boss smoke?

If the boss is a smoker, all it takes is one smoke break taken at the same time as his smoke break, and everything's A-OK between him and the other smoker. He can hardly criticize the other smoker for doing the same thing he's doing, right? And of course, being the boss, he takes a smoke break whenever he feels like it.

On the other hand, if the boss is a nonsmoker, he will probably have very little tolerance for people taking a half-dozen extra breaks throughout the day to smoke. I worked in one place where a smoking GM was replaced by a nonsmoker GM. It didn't take more than a month before he got fed up with the "special status" of smokers and held a plant-wide meeting where he publicly said "for those of you who smoke, you seem to think that your habit entitles you to extra breaks. It does not. If you continue to take unscheduled breaks in order to smoke cigarettes, we will be forced to take action."

[TrailerParkJawa]

At least for white collar jobs Ive noticed smoke breaks for some are a chance to brainstorm some paticular problem or to discuss a situation that is best out of range of some people's ears. So it is not always bad per se.

[Death from the Sea]

A tangent from the latest "smoking" thread:

Since smokers believe they have the "right" to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to light one up, should nonsmokers be allowed to take 5-10 minute breaks during the workday whenever they feel the urge to masturbate to Internet porn?

I don't know about being able to masturbate to internet porn at work seeing as how you can get busted for indecent exposure, but I do agree that non-smokers should get the same breaks as smokers.

The additional breaks that smokers get used to be especially evident in the military. It's one of those things were smoking counts as doing something but just sitting or standing (ie taking a break) is doing nothing. I don't know how many times I got stuck doing more work because I "wasn't doing anything" but the smokers were smoking so they got to keep smoking.

Indeed, I saw the same thing in when I was in the Marines, except one sergeant I had who saw this disparity between non-smokers and smokers and gave the extra or crappy jobs to the smokers because they would be taking random smoke breaks during the regular work. But that was one sergeant and he was not the norm. I really hate smokers and those that dip or chew because that shit is just gross, but at least the dippers and chewers didn't take the random smoke break they would keep working but just spit into their bottle or cup or whatever they had.

[Darth Wong]

At least for white collar jobs Ive noticed smoke breaks for some are a chance to brainstorm some paticular problem or to discuss a situation that is best out of range of some people's ears. So it is not always bad per se.

Actually, that's even worse because it creates a class system in which smokers tend to be privy to more information than nonsmokers. In fact, I actually knew a guy at my first workplace who had quite smoking 10 years earlier and actually started smoking again so he could hang around the executives.

[Alyeska]

I used to work in the Kitchen of a retirement home and more then half the cooks and one of the senior managers smoked. As far as they were concerned if you were getting your job done, you could take several small breaks throughout the day. Because I was friends with two of the cooks I usualy just took a break with them while they smoked. Half the time they would help me finish some work so we could take a break together.

It depends entirely on the business. Some businesses have somewhat lax rules for smokers and non-smokers can generaly use this to their advantage. Other businesses are strict on the break rules and smokers aren't cut anymore slack then non-smokers.

[Tsyroc]

quote="Chardok"]Silly child. When a superior asks you what you are doing, and you are really doing nothing. You say "I'm standing by, Sergeant." (That's what we did.)[/quote]

Oh man. Were you guys just trying to get more work or what? "I'm standing by, Sergeant". Talk about asking for it.

In the instance with my Chief that I mentioned I still had plenty to do but was taking a quick break. I'd had kind of shitty day until that point which is why I was a little snippy about him asking.

I have actually been on breaks where everyone gets the "smoke 'em if you got 'em" message and something comes up before the break is officially over and because I'm not doing anything (ie smoking) I got to be the first one back to work, or volunteered to do something.

Now, I think you make a valid point about what you go through to go on your smoke breaks. In a case where you are actually on the clock I can see where smoke breaks could actually be a drag on your time, especially when you have a deadline.

Most of the time in the military it was a little different. People who were on smoke breaks weren't around to be volunteered to do the next thing that needed to be done. If they were already doing something they could drag it out by taking smoke breaks (granted this sometimes backfired). However, I imagine that when involved in something that is keeping everyone very busy the need for a smoke break can be an additional annoyance.

A lot of this really went away when the Navy made it so difficult to smoke onboard ship. It got to where there were very few places where smoking was authorized while we were deployed. Plus, the ship's store stopped carrying cigarettes and other tobacco products. If you want to see someone grateful for a care package just look at someone who smokes or dips when they get a carton of cigs or a roll of dip after running out on a deployment.

[Tsyroc]

Indeed, I saw the same thing in when I was in the Marines, except one sergeant I had who saw this disparity between non-smokers and smokers and gave the extra or crappy jobs to the smokers because they would be taking random smoke breaks during the regular work. But that was one sergeant and he was not the norm. I really hate smokers and those that dip or chew because that shit is just gross, but at least the dippers and chewers didn't take the random smoke break they would keep working but just spit into their bottle or cup or whatever they had.

I've seen much the same thing. In fact as I started working with fewer smokers in charge the more likely someone was going to do what your sergeant did.

Dippers are annoying in their own right. They are always fishing for something to spit into and I've seen them spit into someone's just open soda can on numerous ocassions. I've also had dip spit spilled on my hand before.

My biggest problems with smokers was in the Navy because on my first ship nearly all of my superiors smoked. They sat in the office chain smoking and drinking coffee. Ocassionally I had to spend time in there and it was awful. One time one of the other enlisted guys was smoking cloves right in the door and all the regular smokers bitched about the smell so we got to leave. Anyway, on that ship I was just lucky that those guys cared about their equipment enough that they didn't let anyone, even themselves, smoke in our electronics spaces. This apparently had not been the case on my second ship but that changed before I got there. I would have hated to sit on watch while everyone else chain smoked next to me for 8 hours. As it was, when I got there our tv lounge was one of the designated smoking places so it was always full of smoke. Supposedly only 3 people were ever supposed to lite up at the same time.

It's okay, people routinely left their packs of cigarettes behind and somehow cigarette loads mysteriously worked their way into a few cigarettes from time to time. Believe it or not, when they explode the cigarettes peel back just like they do in the cartoons.

[TrailerParkJawa]

At least for white collar jobs Ive noticed smoke breaks for some are a chance to brainstorm some paticular problem or to discuss a situation that is best out of range of some people's ears. So it is not always bad per se.

Actually, that's even worse because it creates a class system in which smokers tend to be privy to more information than nonsmokers. In fact, I actually knew a guy at my first workplace who had quite smoking 10 years earlier and actually started smoking again so he could hang around the executives.

I agree if the non-smokers are segregated, but in my case I was always included. It was a tactics for the customer support folks to get a breather from the endless question from Sales and spend some time on our own dept's needs.

[Robert Treder]

In my experience, the workplace tolerance for smoker misbehaviour boils down to one single factor: does the boss smoke?

You betcha. I don't smoke, but about half of my employees do. My shift is not an environment in which just anybody can up and walk out whenever they jones for a cig.
Luckily though, my employees are all good workers, and don't try to get away with not working. If they feel like they need a smoke break, they ask me, and if we can afford to have them go away for ten minutes, I let them, one at a time. We're required by law to offer them a certain amount of paid break time on top of their lunch break, I think it works out to two ten-minute breaks in an eight-hour shift.

[LordShaithis]

Actually, that's even worse because it creates a class system in which smokers tend to be privy to more information than nonsmokers. In fact, I actually knew a guy at my first workplace who had quite smoking 10 years earlier and actually started smoking again so he could hang around the executives.

So you exile us smokers to the outside and then complain when we conspire amongst ourselves?

[Darth Wong]

Actually, that's even worse because it creates a class system in which smokers tend to be privy to more information than nonsmokers. In fact, I actually knew a guy at my first workplace who had quite smoking 10 years earlier and actually started smoking again so he could hang around the executives.

So you exile us smokers to the outside and then complain when we conspire amongst ourselves?

Well, you know, you could just stay inside during the workday, do your jobs like everyone else, and smoke on your own time, during lunch or after work.

[Durandal]

In my experience, the workplace tolerance for smoker misbehaviour boils down to one single factor: does the boss smoke?

My experience is somewhat different, I suppose. When I worked at CompUSA, we had a meeting about this issue with a boss who smoked. He basically said, "Guys, I smoke, some of you do too, but smoke on your scheduled breaks and on your scheduled breaks only."

This kind of issue depends greatly upon what kind of job it is. When I worked at CompUSA, it was a retail job, so the managers didn't appreciate it when employees were off the floor for any reason other than scheduled breaks. Not being on the floor is basically missing an opportunity to make the store money.

If it's a job where you're not doing much of anything half the time (like many white collar jobs), things are different. The only concern in those jobs is whether or not you're completing your assigned tasks competently and on time. So, taking smoke breaks becomes less of an issue as long as you get your work done.

[Darth Wong]

In my experience, the workplace tolerance for smoker misbehaviour boils down to one single factor: does the boss smoke?

My experience is somewhat different, I suppose. When I worked at CompUSA, we had a meeting about this issue with a boss who smoked. He basically said, "Guys, I smoke, some of you do too, but smoke on your scheduled breaks and on your scheduled breaks only."

This kind of issue depends greatly upon what kind of job it is. When I worked at CompUSA, it was a retail job, so the managers didn't appreciate it when employees were off the floor for any reason other than scheduled breaks. Not being on the floor is basically missing an opportunity to make the store money.

Well, retail is a different kind of job than what I was thinking of. I was thinking of white-collar desk jobs and factory jobs (although not assembly-line jobs; in those jobs it's a big deal even to go to the bathroom).

If it's a job where you're not doing much of anything half the time (like many white collar jobs), things are different. The only concern in those jobs is whether or not you're completing your assigned tasks competently and on time. So, taking smoke breaks becomes less of an issue as long as you get your work done.

The problem is that (as I've experienced myself) nonsmokers have to cover for smokers who are taking their breaks, by answering their phone calls and fielding questions in their absence. But if we decided to go for a stroll around the block, we'd get shit when we came back.

[Durandal]

Well, retail is a different kind of job than what I was thinking of. I was thinking of white-collar desk jobs and factory jobs (although not assembly-line jobs; in those jobs it's a big deal even to go to the bathroom).

Of course. Like I said, it depends on the work environment. In an assembly line job or retail environment, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that smokers take more breaks than non-smokers.

The problem is that (as I've experienced myself) nonsmokers have to cover for smokers who are taking their breaks, by answering their phone calls and fielding questions in their absence. But if we decided to go for a stroll around the block, we'd get shit when we came back.

Again, it depends on the job. If you're talking about a tech support environment, then absolutely. The call queue shouldn't get clogged because someone had to step outside for a smoke. But if you have a position in which your responsibilities aren't shared, then it's not really a big issue.

[Darth Wong]

Again, it depends on the job. If you're talking about a tech support environment, then absolutely. The call queue shouldn't get clogged because someone had to step outside for a smoke. But if you have a position in which your responsibilities aren't shared, then it's not really a big issue.

Oh yes it is, because it's a rare environment indeed when one employee's responsibilities are completely segregated from another's. I've had to field questions directed at absent coworkers on many an occasion, for the simple reason that somebody on the shop floor needed answers now, the company was losing money for every minute that the machine sat idle, and you can't look somebody in the eye under those circumstances and say "not my problem".