'Trooper Vindication

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-11 10:26pm

I have to admit my relief that Clone Wars troopers are at least portrayed as having something close to intelligence (rather than the incessantly bumbling morons so many seemed to be in the OT).

Some of the scenes in tonight's third episode of the mini-series were just fantastic - especially the scene in which they encounter and kill the 'droid tank.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-11-11 10:53pm

I never thought of OT Stormtroopers as "bumbling morons."

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-11 11:46pm

In the movies, they certainly leave a great deal to be desired from the "elite" of an Imperial Army.

Banging their heads on bulkheads? Unable to fire effectively even when en masse? They stop seeming to have any value as decent soldiers the moment after the Tantine IV goes off-screen.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-11 11:56pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I never thought of OT Stormtroopers as "bumbling morons."

Endor, 'nough said.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-11-12 12:00am

Ah, a single incident. I am utterly deserstated...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-12 12:08am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Ah, a single incident. I am utterly deserstated...

Out of two major actions we saw, they failed one miserably. They got beat by teddy bears! They should have mopped the floor with them had they been thinking at all.

And of the minor actions we saw, only the boarding of the Tantive was a clear cut sucess. On Bespin they lost and their Death Star actions wasn't exactly brilliant either (remember Han's little sneak attack in the Falcon's hold or the openings of the batttle in the Death Star?).

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-11-12 12:19am

As you may recall, in the instances aboard th first Death Star and at Cloud City, the stormtroopers jobs were to herd Han and Co. to the Falcon where a homing beacon/the Executor were standing at the ready. Their job was to look convincing but obviously not kill anybody; basically a suicide mission which shows a great deal of discipline.

They successfully boarded the Tantive IV against a numerically equal foe and managed to wipe out the resistance with minimal friendly casualties. They overtook a Rebel base on Hoth. Their failure at Endor was clearly the fault of A.) an AT-ST hijacking and B.) an incompetent commander within the shield generator who opened the door for a disguised Han Solo without getting any sort of ID. The book describes the Imperial troopers as winning the battle against the Rebels and Ewoks up until the hijacking, IIRC.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-12 12:28am

As you may recall, in the instances aboard th first Death Star and at Cloud City, the stormtroopers jobs were to herd Han and Co. to the Falcon where a homing beacon/the Executor were standing at the ready. Their job was to look convincing but obviously not kill anybody; basically a suicide mission which shows a great deal of discipline.

But that doesn't cover the initial escape into the Death Star which was handled badly and allowed them to escape in the first place. Unless you wish to provide proof that Vader knew about them before they actually arrived.

They successfully boarded the Tantive IV against a numerically equal foe and managed to wipe out the resistance with minimal friendly casualties. They overtook a Rebel base on Hoth. Their failure at Endor was clearly the fault of A.) an AT-ST hijacking and B.) an incompetent commander within the shield generator who opened the door for a disguised Han Solo without getting any sort of ID. The book describes the Imperial troopers as winning the battle against the Rebels and Ewoks up until the hijacking, IIRC.

The fact that they allowed said hijacking and such difficulty with a bare handful of rebels isn't inspiring. Yes they were winning, but their defensive set up was sadly lacking to begin with as was their scouting and other preperations (no prepared defenses, not such much as an E-web was deployed, no clearing of the jungle, not even routine recon, etc, etc). Clearly the Ewoks took quite some time to set up those traps yet the Imperials never paid any attention at all.

The fact that they had such a difficult battle at all was proof that they didn't do the job right in the first place.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-11-12 12:54am

Stormbringer wrote:
As you may recall, in the instances aboard th first Death Star and at Cloud City, the stormtroopers jobs were to herd Han and Co. to the Falcon where a homing beacon/the Executor were standing at the ready. Their job was to look convincing but obviously not kill anybody; basically a suicide mission which shows a great deal of discipline.
But that doesn't cover the initial escape into the Death Star which was handled badly and allowed them to escape in the first place. Unless you wish to provide proof that Vader knew about them before they actually arrived.

Overconfidence affects even the best troops on occasion, and when you're in a planet-destroying battlestation, it's understandable why you'd be overconfident. Or would you conclude that any soldier who doesn't bother bringing a water canteen on a mission in a hot environment or putting rifle plates in his body armour must be a bumbling idiot?

The fact that they allowed said hijacking and such difficulty with a bare handful of rebels isn't inspiring. Yes they were winning, but their defensive set up was sadly lacking to begin with as was their scouting and other preperations (no prepared defenses, not such much as an E-web was deployed, no clearing of the jungle, not even routine recon, etc, etc). Clearly the Ewoks took quite some time to set up those traps yet the Imperials never paid any attention at all.

Perhaps because they had secured the planet months ago, had experienced no hostile activity whatsoever in all that time, and were expecting only as many hostiles as could be fit into a single shuttle.

The fact that they had such a difficult battle at all was proof that they didn't do the job right in the first place.

Of course they didn't. But a few incidents of understandable overconfidence do not necessarily make an entire corps incompetent.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-11-12 12:57am

I believe the novelization for ROTJ expanded upon the various factors the Imperial troops faced against the Ewoks (outnumbered for one, the Ewoks fighting on their "home turf" as well, so to speak) - and they were still doing well for the most part.

The results of the Endor ground battle may be in part Palpatine's doing as well - he basically masterminded the whole Endor thing himself.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-12 01:18am

As far as I can see, Lucas is a story-teller; in the OT, it was necessary for Luke and the others to win against overwealming odds. The Clone Wars is a more appropriate venue for realistic combat.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-11-12 01:23am

Which is perfectly fine logic if you don't care about pissing all over suspension of disbelief or objective analysis.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-11-12 01:50am

Realistic analysis of Star Wars and other science fiction is difficult, precisely because it is one man's creation. George Lucas obviously didn't sit down with a team of experts to make the OT a paragon of realistic story-telling. It's fun to try and see where canon can be put to rest on real science, but then again, one must remember that the chracters' feats are simply elements of an epic.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-11-12 02:26am

Axis Kast wrote:Realistic analysis of Star Wars and other science fiction is difficult, precisely because it is one man's creation. George Lucas obviously didn't sit down with a team of experts to make the OT a paragon of realistic story-telling. It's fun to try and see where canon can be put to rest on real science, but then again, one must remember that the chracters' feats are simply elements of an epic.

Funny, I'm not having any real difficulty doing so, and those whom have inspired me in my efforts certainly have had no trouble doing it (and they've been at it for years.)

I am always amused by the innumerable excuses people will invent to justify the notion that suspension of disbelief doesn't work or should be ignored.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-11-12 04:40am

Why the hell did my exam have to fall on a date and time so as to miss the goddamn episode- BOTH showings.

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2003-11-12 08:08am

My uneducated guess, features a single story about Kyp Durron, and the Sun Crusher. one planet listed there was a stormtrooper training ground. They took kids who were 10, and started training them there. Assuming just 8 years training, and the entire planet dedicated to training (and Earth size pop), you get no more than 500 million troops per year.

However, the stormtrooper armor is another matter. That can be stamped out in factories similar to Geonosis, with different molds used for different sized people. Lots of armor made that way.

So you would have maybe 1 trillion troops, and ~10 billion elite troops (assuming 20 year contracts). Those trillion regular troops would get stormtrooper armor, but they don't have the training. Great for simply showing the flag, and as the armor looks the same, nobody really knows if the guy threatening you just got out of a 2 month boot camp, or could duel a 9th degree blackbelt.

Do you want to take the chance? Most people wouldn't, so they don't argue.

That could be the reason we see stormtroopers with poor accuracy sometimes. Those are the guys who got the basic training, not the elite training.

Had an idea for a fanfic based on this idea. Essentially, Princess Leia gets shot down, along with an Imperial shuttle (somehow). Princess Leia has ~20 troops, and ~15 mechanics to take care of.

The Imperials have ~5 mechanics, 20 regular stormtroopers, and 5 of the true stormtroopers. The planet is a deathworld (lots of nasties in the jungle).

Neither one can get back to space on their own, so they are forced to cooperate (nobody on their respective sides knows where they are, and the deathworld means nobody really wants to stay).

Over time, the mechanics get a working relationship going, and after watching the stormtroopers in action, one of Leia's bodyguards goes up to her, and points out the true stormtroopers. He essentially points out that those five are enough to wipe out his entire detail, without any trouble.

Eventually, both sides manage to pile into Leia's ship (it was the only one with enough room), and leave. Ending is still being worked upon.

Other idea I had for a story, is to have top secret Imperial prison planets, like Honor Among enemies where one planet is the entire prison, and you've got a garrison occupying one island. Imperials have decided to sexually isolate the planets, where humanoid females are on one planet, humanoid males on another, non-humanoid females on another, non-humanoid males the last. Essentially, the wardens have gotten soft, delivering the food, and someone manages to take over the prison planet (Rebel raid?). Unfortunately, there is a Star destroyer on its way in 12 hours, and the liberators only have enough transport for 50 people (out of ~5 million on planet.

The Star destroyer doesn't know this is a prison planet, as it only detected an unauthorized hyperspace jump in the area. Its patrols are timed so that prison drops are made in stealthed ships, or when the ship is away. So one liberator gets the idea to protray the entire planet as a luxury planet for the crew, and manages to convince all the local women to dress up as entertainers. Several dirty looks are sent his way, but they manage to dress up in time.

While the Star Destroyer is in port, the rebels manage to milk them of information (drunk officers talk a lot), and manage to send a signal to the Rebel Alliance via sympathizers. The Alliance manages to show up later with transports, and lift off several million people there. A few decide to stay though, and turn the planet into a pleasure resort, to make money for the Alliance, to milk information for the Rebellion, and so the Star destroyer doesn't come back later, and wonder why the place is missing.

Cyke · Post by **Cyke** » 2003-11-12 08:17am

So far, we've only seen the Clonetroopers fighting in large-scale battles on terrain for which they've been prepared, right?
Maybe the standard training regimen doesn't stress jungle warfare sufficiently, although admittedly this demonstrates arrogance on the Empire's part when they're located on a forest moon.
Perhaps the fault lays with the inappropriate methods of deployment of Stormtroopers by Imperial officers? Like, not giving them proper training, equipment and briefings when they're placed in different situations?

Btw Stormbringer, maybe it's just me, but I kind of figured that Vader planned Leia's escape so that he could locate the Rebel base. If it wasn't for her escape aboard the Falcon, they wouldn't have found it. Don't forget she was the only one who knew the location; Luke, Han, Chewie and the droids didn't knowwhere it was. For the plan to work, it was necessary for them to escape with her.
Perhaps I haven't thought it through completely until now; if this were the case, it changes many things. For example, Obi-Wan's sacrifice to allow their escape may have been unnecessary, if they were allowed to escape anyway.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2003-11-12 09:07am

Cyke wrote:So far, we've only seen the Clonetroopers fighting in large-scale battles on terrain for which they've been prepared, right?

Geonosis. Picked up, and put straight into combat. They had little time to prepare, they kicked ass.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-11-12 10:03am

Coalition wrote:My uneducated guess, features a single story about Kyp Durron, and the Sun Crusher. one planet listed there was a stormtrooper training ground. They took kids who were 10, and started training them there. Assuming just 8 years training, and the entire planet dedicated to training (and Earth size pop), you get no more than 500 million troops per year.

However, the stormtrooper armor is another matter. That can be stamped out in factories similar to Geonosis, with different molds used for different sized people. Lots of armor made that way.

So you would have maybe 1 trillion troops, and ~10 billion elite troops (assuming 20 year contracts). Those trillion regular troops would get stormtrooper armor, but they don't have the training. Great for simply showing the flag, and as the armor looks the same, nobody really knows if the guy threatening you just got out of a 2 month boot camp, or could duel a 9th degree blackbelt.

Do you want to take the chance? Most people wouldn't, so they don't argue.

That could be the reason we see stormtroopers with poor accuracy sometimes. Those are the guys who got the basic training, not the elite training.

what poor accuracy? While Imperial stormtroopers tactical skills at Endor sucked, their accuracy was never a factor. Remember, real life troops only have a 10% accuracy rate. Unless we are led to believe that every stormtrooper is somehow a Ranger, commando, Seal and SBS/SAS all jumboed into one, there is no reason to question stormtroopers accuracy.

Of course, Tantive IV really isn't a showcase of Imperial brillance either. If Rebel forces were more accurate, the restrictions on the Imps to only use their blasters would had resulted in massive Imperial casualties.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-11-12 01:58pm

PainRack wrote: what poor accuracy? While Imperial stormtroopers tactical skills at Endor sucked, their accuracy was never a factor. Remember, real life troops only have a 10% accuracy rate. Unless we are led to believe that every stormtrooper is somehow a Ranger, commando, Seal and SBS/SAS all jumboed into one, there is no reason to question stormtroopers accuracy.

Actually, in RL accuracy is even lower. American forces in Vietnam fired into the thousands of rounds for every VC/NVA casualty. In WWI, soldiers on both sides had to fire hundreds of rounds to cause an enemy casualty, except during the human-wave attacks where one side was plainly visible, and even then dozens of shots were fired for every enemy casualty. Even with the Rangers in Somalia, the ratio of rounds fired for every target hit for BOTH sides was substantially lower than 1/10, even if we disregard the "wasteful" fire from helicopters.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-12 05:22pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Actually, in RL accuracy is even lower. American forces in Vietnam fired into the thousands of rounds for every VC/NVA casualty.

Millions actually.

In WWI, soldiers on both sides had to fire hundreds of rounds to cause an enemy casualty, except during the human-wave attacks where one side was plainly visible, and even then dozens of shots were fired for every enemy casualty.

The figure was into the hundreds of thousands even in the bloodiest battles, and many millions overall. Which is not surprising when the war had cases of ten gun machine gun companies firing a million rounds in a single day. Anyway in large scale combat rifle and machine gun fire generally does less then 25% of the killing.

Even with the Rangers in Somalia, the ratio of rounds fired for every target hit for BOTH sides was substantially lower than 1/10, even if we disregard the "wasteful" fire from helicopters.

The figure would have been more like one for 1/1000, minimal, likley it need another zero.

Even at the battle of Stones River in the American Civil war, (no atuomatic rifles or machine guns to be found) an often very close fought battle and a bloody one, it was estimated that Union forces had had to fire 145 musket balls to inflict a Confederate causality, and that the artillery had to fire 27 shots for the same. And its quite likely that these figures are too low.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-11-12 05:59pm

Side note:
If you discuss stormtrooper accuracy, do not forget about the sandcrawler: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sand People. Only
Imperial stormtroopers are so precise."

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-11-12 06:24pm

Well, in terms of accuracy.. at least in the Death Star, the stormtroopers must've been suffering either from glacouma or had a case of cataracts or constant constipation that really affected their aim. Especially in the special edition version.. so many stormtroopers missing Han Solo in a clear confined corridor. But yes, I agree.. they had to escape for the story to progress.

Coalition, you can't say the stormtroopers are the elite and then say they only get basic training.. that doesn't make sense.

Also, if you say the Stormtroopers were outnumbered on Endor and fighting not on their "home turf," I'd HATE to think of how Stormtroopers would fight against people with a similar technological level if the Navy wasn't there to bomb the shit out of them.

And the AT-ST isn't worth shit. For all the power a blaster is supposed to produce, it crumples from two trunks?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2003-11-12 06:33pm

Coalition, you can't say the stormtroopers are the elite and then say they only get basic training.. that doesn't make sense.

No, that wouldn't make sense. But that's not what he said. He said that its easier and faster to produce stormtrooper armor than it is to train stormtroopers, so why not give some of the regulars stormtrooper armor? It looks impressive, scares everyone into wetting their pants, and no one will know the difference until combat starts. And if everyone's convinced that they'd be fighting fully trained stormtroopers off of Carida they're a lot less likely to start shooting. It makes sense.